I guess I was rude, but I don't care. ;)

[GentleLake]

...what possesses a kid to announce to the owner of a dog that s/he's going to kick said dog?

 

I can't answer that, but at least it's better than the kid just kicking the dog unannounced. I had that happen once, too. Fortunately it was a toddler who didn't have much power behind his kick and his mother grabbed him in the act lessening the impact even further. . . . and the mother was mortified, apologized profusely and took the child out of the library telling him he couldn't be around the dogs anymore, which he wanted a lot, so there were consequences to his actions.

 

I'm not sure what the psychology is that would motivate these youngsters to such violence against another creature. In both the cases I've seen, it was pre-school age children, who don't always have well developed impulse control yet. Maybe they've witnessed something like this in real life or in media and are copying the behavior? Or maybe like misbehaving puppies they're just experimenting with what they can and can't get away with? If the latter, it's all the more troubling when the parents just get huffy and don't do anything about it.

[Tommy Coyote]

I had that happen with the neighbor's little girl. She was 3 or 4. I made her leave the yard. So she stood outside the fence and screamed.

[Beach BCs]

You know what happened to me. I was out in one of my customer's back yard with her lab something big dog. Her neighbor came out and dangled his toddler over the fence. I told him Sammy had never been around kids and not to do that. He just looked at me with this blank stare and then dangled him some more. I was pretty sure wouldn't hurt the kid but I couldn't believe what he was doing.

I had a neighbor do something similar I was out in the yard with my three and the guy picked up his two year old and put him over the fence in into the yard with my dogs. One of my dogs is fabulous with kids, beyond tolerant. The other two...not so much. They're not aggressive, they're fearful and suspicious. And I have repeatedly shared that with my neighbors with young children. Well the two year old took off after the wrong dogs with me after him. Grabbed him and handed him back to his dad. "Dad" thought it was cute. Idiot. I told him to never do that again.

[GentleLake]

You know what happened to me. I was out in one of my customer's back yard with her lab something big dog. Her neighbor came out and dangled his toddler over the fence. I told him Sammy had never been around kids and not to do that. He just looked at me with this blank stare and then dangled him some more. I was pretty sure wouldn't hurt the kid but I couldn't believe what he was doing.

 

People dangle their kids over the barriers separating dangerous animals like lions, tigers, wolves and bears in zoos.

[geonni banner]

Dear Doggers,

 

Every few years we've had doggy fandangos at home. My road rules are simple: no dog fights, no bites. Ever. In 30 years and lord knows how many miles/cities/countries/farms: no fights, no bites. To this end I avoid other people and their dogs - on or off leash - (mine are almost always off) by timing and design.

 

I will embarrass myself (and others) if I must to achieve these goals. I try to arrive at hotels/motels early (before 5) when room selection is still pretty good and the lobby is uncrowded. But I remember once when I arrived late, Fly was still nipping (which counts as a bite) and though I'd checked in I had to bring her (on leash) through twenty/thirty children and adults. In a loud voice I announced, "Would you please step back a bit so we can pass? This dog is unreliable!" Embarrassing but nobody got bit.

 

Sheepdog trials are usually no problem. But sometimes: At Montpelier once I was walking June and a woman approached with a couple kids. "Can they pet the dog?"

 

June was bulletproof. "Sure."

 

Whereupon, one of the kids announced, "I think I'll kick her."

 

I replied, "Do and I'll kick you."

 

He didn't. His mother was offended. Tough shit.

 

My first duty as leader of my little pack is to keep my dogs safe. My second duty is to keep others safe. If I can be polite about it, I will. But I will not, not once,not ever, fail in my duty because I might hurt someone's feelings.

 

Donald McCaig

Hear hear!

[geonni banner]

 

This is a great way to think of it.

 

Also what possesses a kid to announce to the owner of a dog that s/he's going to kick said dog? That's got to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

I would prefer the warning of a kick to the time I had a kid step up and push my leashed Doberman off a curb and into the path of a bus. No warning, just bam! - and I'm hauling my dog out of the way of a bus which was almost on top of her.

 

Mother standing there calmly while her brat tries to murder my dog. I shoved the kid back and screamed bloody murder at the mom. Told her I would have her arrested. (Which was pretty stupid - if the cops had come they would probably arrested me for shoving the kid) She was completely unimpressed. The kid was a little less so. I was ready to deck the little creep and he knew it.

[Tommy Coyote]

God. And people wonder why I never take my dogs out in public. I'm afraid to.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms Chene asked: "Also what possesses a kid to announce to the owner of a dog that s/he's going to kick said dog?"

 

He was just trying the adults. He'd got over his mother and wondered if he could get over other adults. I meant what I said and he understood.

 

Probably given half a chance he was a pretty good kid.

 

Donald McCaig

[chene]

I would prefer the warning of a kick to the time I had a kid step up and push my leashed Doberman off a curb and into the path of a bus. No warning, just bam! - and I'm hauling my dog out of the way of a bus which was almost on top of her.

 

Mother standing there calmly while her brat tries to murder my dog. I shoved the kid back and screamed bloody murder at the mom. Told her I would have her arrested. (Which was pretty stupid - if the cops had come they would probably arrested me for shoving the kid) She was completely unimpressed. The kid was a little less so. I was ready to deck the little creep and he knew it.

 

I think in that case, I would make an effort to be very, very calm. Cold. Ask the child what he planned to do if my dog had been hit by that bus. Mention that animal abuse was now a class A felony and that pushing an animal in the path of a vehicle would get them into very big trouble. Type in the animal cruelty hotline number on my phone, tell him what it is. Suggest he apologize. If he doesn't, call them. Probably add that cruelty towards animals was an indicator of a tendency towards violence and crime later in life. I'd follow through on the call, of course, though I don't know that it would do much.

 

God, people are scary.

[TxMom]

I'm not sure what the psychology is that would motivate these youngsters to such violence against another creature. In both the cases I've seen, it was pre-school age children, who don't always have well developed impulse control yet. Maybe they've witnessed something like this in real life or in media and are copying the behavior? Or maybe like misbehaving puppies they're just experimenting with what they can and can't get away with? If the latter, it's all the more troubling when the parents just get huffy and don't do anything about it.

 

At a guess, it's one of many dumb things they try at that stage to see what will happen (and good parents will intervene if possible or make sure appropriate consequences follow if not). At age 2 or 3, if they didn't seem like especially malicious little monsters otherwise, I'd even guess the thought process stopped at "I wonder what happens if I kick the dog?" and didn't go so far as "it would probably hurt the dog." I remember seeing one of my toddlers deliberately throw a (small) rock into the air above his head and then be astonished at the painful result. If they can't foresee pain for themselves, I think it'd be even harder to anticipate pain they'd be causing to someone else. For that matter, toddlers and even preschoolers are still figuring out that other people have their own feelings. I wouldn't judge too much about a very young child based on a (single) incident like that. The parents' reaction, on the other hand...

[chene]

First off, I don't want you to take this as a chide or patronizing - just a bit of information you might find useful.

 

After a couple/few years around dog sports and dog activities, I've learned to ask before:

A-) Feeding someone else's dog

B-) Petting/touching someone else's dog

C-) Allowing your dog and someone else's dog(s) to interact at all.

 

People are going to vary in their preferences with these things and they're often informed by the DOG's preferences/temperament, or where they are in training and what they're working on.

 

My default when out and about or even at a dog activity is that if I don't know the owner and dog and I'm not DANGED sure about their 'rules' I ask. More often, I just ignore the other dogs utterly. Even if I'm neck deep in dogs at a dog event, I maintain distance enough so that the dogs can't make contact, don't try and pet, don't introduce myself, and don't feed treats.

 

 

Sorry, I missed this. You're right, theoretically if I asked what they wanted in every interaction it would clear things up, but it's not always realistic and to be honest often it just feels awkward. Also I'm moreso talking about off leash parks and such, where there are a lot more situations than "feed, pet, or let your dog sniff". Those are straightforward enough.

 

So help me out. Let's say an owner is throwing a ball for their dog and Aed joins in, nicely, but he keeps beating their dog to the ball. Owner keeps throwing the ball but has a weird expression on their face. I can't tell if they mind or not. I'm standing on the path close enough to call Aed or watch the game but not within talking distance of the owner. I could call Aed off just in case, but if I called Aed off every single off leash interaction at a big off leash dog parkwhere I wasn't sure it would get ridiculous. I could yell to the owner "Is it okay that he's chasing the ball?" but again when I start doing that with every single person it's uncomfortable and ridiculous, and it's just as likely they would feel compelled to say yes just to be polite. I could keep watching and if the owner shows any signs of wanting Aed to go away then I could call him off. Since I'm still walking. Aed won't be playing ball with them long before he sees that I'm moving away and comes after me, so is any of it worth it? That's the kind of situation I mean. What would your approach be?

[CptJack]

This is a stretch for me, because I don't *do* dog parks often. At least not 'thunderdome' style that are just fenced in pieces of lands. The few times my dogs have been off leash with other dogs I don't know well, my default is still - don't interact with other people's dogs or allow mine to interact with other people or their dogs.

So, whether someone was throwing a ball for their dog or not, my dog wouldn't be allowed to join in to start with. My default assumption is separation and I maintain that, even when my dog might have fun with the other dog or maybe the other owner won't care. I mean, assuming a quick 'Hey, can we play with you?' is something I'm not comfortable with, and I'm socially anxious enough that that's often the case.

 

I just don't let my dogs interact with other people and their dogs without permission, period. Off leash parks, beaches, trails, parks, whatever. If I can't stop that from happening, we leave and go somewhere else.

 

I'm not saying that to be snarky or judgey pants, just that for me it's still cut and dry: don't let the dogs interact with another person's dogs/don't interact with their dog without their express, direct, permission. It would be easier if other people would be direct about their preferences, but I can't make them do that. I CAN ask directly/change my behavior.

 

The few times someone else's dogs have tried to approach me for treats/play/whatever, I've either ignored the dog or asked if I could feed it/they were okay with the dogs playing. Or remove myself and my dog if I can do so.

 

ETA: To be clear, I'm not claiming it's that easy for others/their lives/situations. Just that for me it works.

[GentleLake]

At a guess, it's one of many dumb things they try at that stage to see what will happen

 

Yeah, I definitely think that's a big part of it.

 

I can't help wonder if along with that naturally occurring on its own, if the violence even tiny kids see on TV and their video games (I'm appalled at the number of parents I see who allow their very young kids to play violent video games far beyond what's age appropriate) doesn't add to it. Young kids tend to mimic what they see.

[chene]

This is a stretch for me, because I don't *do* dog parks often. At least not 'thunderdome' style that are just fenced in pieces of lands. The few times my dogs have been off leash with other dogs I don't know well, my default is still - don't interact with other people's dogs or allow mine to interact with other people or their dogs.

 

So, whether someone was throwing a ball for their dog or not, my dog wouldn't be allowed to join in to start with. My default assumption is separation and I maintain that, even when my dog might have fun with the other dog or maybe the other owner won't care. I mean, assuming a quick 'Hey, can we play with you?' is something I'm not comfortable with, and I'm socially anxious enough that that's often the case.

 

I just don't let my dogs interact with other people and their dogs without permission, period. Off leash parks, beaches, trails, parks, whatever. If I can't stop that from happening, we leave and go somewhere else.

 

I'm not saying that to be snarky or judgey pants, just that for me it's still cut and dry: don't let the dogs interact with another person's dogs/don't interact with their dog without their express, direct, permission. It would be easier if other people would be direct about their preferences, but I can't make them do that. I CAN ask directly/change my behavior.

 

The few times someone else's dogs have tried to approach me for treats/play/whatever, I've either ignored the dog or asked if I could feed it/they were okay with the dogs playing. Or remove myself and my dog if I can do so.

 

ETA: To be clear, I'm not claiming it's that easy for others/their lives/situations. Just that for me it works.

 

I guess it's a bit of a different situation, because I'm not sure how I could navigate a dog park without asking permission to interact with every single dog. Dogs run up to Aed, Aed runs up to other dogs, I guess I'm just used to that being the way of the dog park. That's why people go there, as far as I can tell. They come up and sit on benches and let their dogs loose to run around with each other while they watch. It's assumed that the dogs will play with each other. I guess that's why it seems awkward to me to ask everyone about it. I suppose I could, if you think it's worth it. I've never had a bad experience at this particular dog park and Aed loves it so I'd rather not cut it out altogether.

[CptJack]

It really isn't about if I think it's worth it or not - more if YOU do. I don't have experience (much) with that type of dog parks, and the little I do have were almost deserted so it wasn't an issue. I don't find much value (personally!) in that kind of interaction or setting, so I don't seek it out.

I like off leash areas, but my preferences for those are acres and acres of land and remote wilderness areas where encounters are rare - or really off hours. My purpose in going there is to work/play with MY dog or dogs on other things. To hike, or climb, or train with distractions. If I want free play - I've got 5 dogs and a yard, you know?

 

Or I'm at a dog event where the rule of thumb is no interaction without permission and dogs not within lunging/reaching distance (aka: agility trials or leashed walks).

 

That's me and my life. Yours is obviously different. The call you're going to end up making is up to you. I DO, however, think if you're questioning whether someone is okay with something, though, your best bet is to speak up and ask and make an offer to remove your dog/stop the situation if asked. Not because I think it's 'fair' for you to have to, but because I don't think other people necessarily will and it will remove any doubt on your end - and that asking will be less uncomfortable for you than wondering.

[gcv-border]

 

 

 

So help me out. Let's say an owner is throwing a ball for their dog and Aed joins in, nicely, but he keeps beating their dog to the ball. Owner keeps throwing the ball but has a weird expression on their face. I can't tell if they mind or not. I'm standing on the path close enough to call Aed or watch the game but not within talking distance of the owner. I could call Aed off just in case, but if I called Aed off every single off leash interaction at a big off leash dog parkwhere I wasn't sure it would get ridiculous. I could yell to the owner "Is it okay that he's chasing the ball?" but again when I start doing that with every single person it's uncomfortable and ridiculous, and it's just as likely they would feel compelled to say yes just to be polite. I could keep watching and if the owner shows any signs of wanting Aed to go away then I could call him off. Since I'm still walking. Aed won't be playing ball with them long before he sees that I'm moving away and comes after me, so is any of it worth it? That's the kind of situation I mean. What would your approach be?

I would not let my dog interfere with another dog's game. If my dog wouldn't drop the ball, I would recall my dog, take the ball from him (yeah, I'm the party pooper) and then walk over to return the ball to the owner (or return it to the dog). At that point, if the owner seemed friendly and if the dog seemed friendly, I might - might - pose a question about letting my dog join in the fun. Most likely, I would have my dog on a leash,apologize for my dog's interference, and continue walking out of the range of temptation.

 

In this situation, my response is based a bit on the fact that if it were me and my dog, and I was throwing a ball, I generally wouldn't want another dog interfering. Do unto others ..... Another aspect of the basis of my response is that my dog needs to have impulse control. I try not to let them act as they wish in a place where they can bother others. If my dog saw another playing with a ball, I would do my best to make sure my dog stayed with me either with a verbal command, or if that didn't work, with a leash. Then I would work on focus games. That situation is excellent for distraction training.

[geonni banner]

 

I think in that case, I would make an effort to be very, very calm. Cold. Ask the child what he planned to do if my dog had been hit by that bus. Mention that animal abuse was now a class A felony and that pushing an animal in the path of a vehicle would get them into very big trouble. Type in the animal cruelty hotline number on my phone, tell him what it is. Suggest he apologize. If he doesn't, call them. Probably add that cruelty towards animals was an indicator of a tendency towards violence and crime later in life. I'd follow through on the call, of course, though I don't know that it would do much.

 

God, people are scary.

 

Calm was beyond me at that moment. My dog had come within inches of being flattened by a bus because of a deliberate act. The kid was probably ten. This was 20 years ago.

[CptJack]

I think a lot of my approach to this is admittedly related to the fact that ultimately I have no desire to mess with anyone else's dog and consider intrusion by another dog or person annoying.

Odds are high I'm walking somewhere to work or play with my dogs, not looking for an opportunity for them to run and play with other people or dogs. If I AM looking for people or other dogs, I am trying to work on desensitization or distractions to work through - not interaction.

There are settings where I expect my dogs to need to be in close quarters with other dogs or for people to be asked to pet them - sitting around at a dog friendly sidewalk cafe, whatever - and you know, I deal with it and it's fine. But. 99% of the time it's a break into what I want to be doing with my dogs.

 

Not that it never happens. I dragged Kylie into a play session once (with permission - she mostly sat in my lap) - it's just that as a rule of thumb it's an intrusion and aggravation.

Add in Molly's reactivity and I REALLY just want to be left alone.

(Also worth noting Jovi and I are from the same rough geographic area and crossover at some dog events, so we're probably used to a very similar kind of 'dog culture'.)

[chene]

I dunno. Maybe it's a culture thing. Maybe not. The situations you're describing sound oddly formal to me given the circumstances. All the dogs are running around, stopping here to chase a ball, there to sniff another dog, over there to pee on the bush. I can't envision myself calling Aed to me, specifically going over to an owner, and saying "Hi, can we play ball with you?" By the time I got there Aed would have moved on already.

Maybe part of the problem is that there's an assumption that if you're at the big busy dog park with your dog off leash instead of one of the many deserted parks in the near vicinity, you don't mind other dogs coming over to play. But that sounds dangerously close to "if she's not friendly she shouldn't be in public."

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. It all seems very "gray area" to me, is the point I guess.

P.S. Aed has no issues with impulse control or not returning the ball. He knows the rules of fetch and he's happy to stay by my side if I wanted to force him to do that. That's not the problem here.

[CptJack]

I guess I just don't understand.

If the owner looks uncomfortable and you're unsure, what's formal about going 'Hey, do you need me to ask him to knock it off?'. Because even IF they're okay with another dog playing, maybe they don't want their dog losing the ball all the time? I mean you clearly have some questions about if it's okay or not, so. Just ask?

That just doesn't seem formal to me at all. Or gray. You have a question about if something is okay with someone or not, ask 'em.

[chene]

If I was right beside them, I would. It's the situation of just walking by and Aed chases the ball a few times and like I said, by the time I even walked over there he would have been done playing had I just kept walking.

[GentleLake]

^^ Seems like much ado about nothing . . .

[CptJack]

Yeah, for me this falls into one of two categories:

You keep the dog with you and keep walking because you've got somewhere to be/are doing something else (ie: not sitting around and watching dogs romp)

 

or

 

It's about a minute and the guy can speak up.

 

I'd go with 1, but that's ME.

[rushdoggie]

 

 

Sorry, I missed this. You're right, theoretically if I asked what they wanted in every interaction it would clear things up, but it's not always realistic and to be honest often it just feels awkward. Also I'm moreso talking about off leash parks and such, where there are a lot more situations than "feed, pet, or let your dog sniff". Those are straightforward enough.

 

So help me out. Let's say an owner is throwing a ball for their dog and Aed joins in, nicely, but he keeps beating their dog to the ball. Owner keeps throwing the ball but has a weird expression on their face. I can't tell if they mind or not. I'm standing on the path close enough to call Aed or watch the game but not within talking distance of the owner. I could call Aed off just in case, but if I called Aed off every single off leash interaction at a big off leash dog parkwhere I wasn't sure it would get ridiculous. I could yell to the owner "Is it okay that he's chasing the ball?" but again when I start doing that with every single person it's uncomfortable and ridiculous, and it's just as likely they would feel compelled to say yes just to be polite. I could keep watching and if the owner shows any signs of wanting Aed to go away then I could call him off. Since I'm still walking. Aed won't be playing ball with them long before he sees that I'm moving away and comes after me, so is any of it worth it? That's the kind of situation I mean. What would your approach be?

 

Call my dog to me, and move on. Why is it OK to let my dog steal someone else's ball?

 

Not everyone is at an off lead park to have their dog play with other dogs. I use them very occasionally so my dogs can legally be off lead, sometimes to play fetch.

 

I'm not going to freak out if someone else's dog comes up to mine, but I would be annoyed if they stole my dogs ball. I

[geonni banner]

I dunno. Maybe it's a culture thing. Maybe not. The situations you're describing sound oddly formal to me given the circumstances. All the dogs are running around, stopping here to chase a ball, there to sniff another dog, over there to pee on the bush. I can't envision myself calling Aed to me, specifically going over to an owner, and saying "Hi, can we play ball with you?" By the time I got there Aed would have moved on already.

 

At dog parks here there is a fairly complex sort of etiquette. Granted, at least a third of the people there will ignore even its most basic rules - like pick up your dog's crap.

 

But yeah, most people will ask if your dog is interested in dog/dog activities. And most will ask before offering petting, treats, etc. But there are always a few that make the assumption that you are there so your dog can play with other dogs.

 

That was never my reason for going. I went because there was about 50 acres where my dog could run, swim, play fetch and pal around with me, my walking partner and her dogs.

 

There are always people who want to see off-leash areas in Regional and City parks abolished. Bicyclists, birders, and others. It comes up pretty regular. Local people who live in apartments really need dog parks. In the East (SF) Bay there just isn't much in the way of large open spaces where dogs are welcome. Most of the Regional Parks have off-leash areas, but you have to walk quite a ways, leashed, to get to them. Most beaches are off-limits to dogs, period.

 

We had a real fight at city hall in Richmond to get off-leash rights for Pt. Isabel.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Isabel_Regional_Shoreline

 

400 dog owners showed up for the City Council session where they voted. When the park was first being designated an official off-leash park, I tried to get people to post a red-ribbon rule with the park rules and bulletin board. Red ribbon on the dog's collar meant leave it alone, and don't let your dog hassle it. Never made it into the rules, however. Works for horse people. Red ribbon on the dock means a horse that kicks.

 

I don't go there any more - no way to get there - and my oldest is not interested in other dogs much, and not afraid to say so in rather strident terms.