A Big Accomplishment for Tessa!

[Root Beer]

Tessa has never been a distance dog. She's not a super velcro dog like Maddie was, but she has never been one to actually send away from me to do things at a distance.

 

It had been my plan to get by in CPE Jackpot on non-Traditionals. For those who don't know, first - Jackpot is the game that has a distance gamble. Handler has to stay behind a line while the dog does a sequence on the other side of it. Distance generally increases by levels. But the judge can also offer a non-Traditional Jackpot and then the judge basically makes up the rules! Usually in a non-Traditional Jackpot, there is a distance component, but it is optional and you get double points (or triple, or something) for the distance part, but you can qualify without the distance if you can rack up enough points in the game.

 

Non-Traditional Jackpots are fun. I like having a set of rules thrown at me and then quickly work out a strategy to make it work for Tessa. We have been extremely successful at them.

 

We did Q on a couple of Traditional Jackpots at the lower levels when the distances were smaller, but we bombed on the one Traditional Jackpot we attempted at Level 4, almost a full year ago.

 

So, that was where I was - planning to rely on non-Traditionals and sharp strategy to rack up points.

 

But last spring I took an online class with Loretta Mueller at Fenzi Academy and she was positive that Tessa could learn to send. And she recommended the item that made distance work a reality for us: the Lotus ball! She had me work on forward sends with Tessa and I would toss a Lotus Ball full of chicken near her landing at the side of the jump.

 

Tessa ate it up - literally! I started to see her run out ahead to take the jump eagerly, and then I began to see the light of comprehension dawn . . .

 

At first I was thrilled when I could get her to run a few feet ahead of me at class to take jumps that were ahead of us. But she quickly progressed beyond that. A couple of weeks ago, she went into a tunnel, I stayed back near it, and I sent her to a jump about 6 - 8 feet away, and then another - she completed a 180 with me at that distance.

 

And then I set a new goal. Just once I wanted to complete a distance gamble in a Traditional Jackpot with Tessa at Level 4 or 5 (the classes run together so the gambles are the same). Just once.

 

We got our first opportunity this past Saturday. The gamble was a good one. The distance wasn't huge, but there was a set of six weaves smack in the middle of it. This was a worthy challenge that many dogs struggled with.

 

I knew Tessa could do it and I was excited to give it a shot!

 

And she did it!! She came out of the tunnel and easily took the first jump in the gamble, which wasn't at much distance at all. She briefly checked in with me, I said, "weave" and she moved off and took those weaves!! All six - perfect!! Then to the tunnel, which wasn't difficult for her.

 

I was thrilled! This was a huge accomplishment for her!!

 

I am enjoying the distance work. We are going to attempt another Traditional Jackpot this coming week and I am very much looking forward to it.

 

We earned our first Q in Level 5 Standard, too, and that was a big deal (three whole seconds and some change under time!), but the Jackpot was the big "WOOT WOOT" for us!

 

Here's the video. The messed up weaves after the double were just silliness on her part. They cost us time, but not enough to make us NQ. After the buzzer in a Traditional, the only thing that counts is the gamble, so the double and the funky weaves were of no consequence.

 

The distance looks like practically nothing on the video, but it was more than it looks like from the video perspective.

 

[GentleLake]

Congrats to both of you!

[gcv-border]

Congratulations!

 

I was introduced to the Lotus ball about 7 years ago. Neither Torque nor Kiefer need help with distance, but I know the value of the Lotus ball in training and have seen it help several dogs with motivation/distance problems.

 

2 weekends ago, at a NADAC agility trial, there were a couple of Lotus balls on a table (not sure why). I happened to just be standing there when a couple of gals came up and investigated them. They were very confused as to how to use them. I happily explained how to use them and their value in training. I guess I wasn't very convincing as they walked away still thinking that the Lotus ball wasn't anything great.

[CptJack]

I think they were selling Lotus balls at that trial? At least on day 1 there was a price list with them. I do know a couple of people bought them.

 

I've used pill containers with lids to throw food for my dog - I did it originally to reteach a retrieve (she has to bring it back to get it opened!) and own a couple of Lotus balls and like them, for delivering food 'out there', though honestly I don't need them so much with either of mine. Apparently I'm fantastic at teaching my dog to send (and/or lucky enough to have dogs who will).

 

I'm just really really bad at letting go enough to do it.

 

That's pretty much the focus of my work right now. I'm learning how to do a serious lead out, but still really struggling to work out the places on the course I can use distance, and then how to do it effectively (and without screwing up my timing). It's a work in progress.

And I'm NADAC which... really is designed for distance and speed.

[Root Beer]

2 weekends ago, at a NADAC agility trial, there were a couple of Lotus balls on a table (not sure why). I happened to just be standing there when a couple of gals came up and investigated them. They were very confused as to how to use them. I happily explained how to use them and their value in training. I guess I wasn't very convincing as they walked away still thinking that the Lotus ball wasn't anything great.

 

Bandit doesn't care what's in the Lotus ball - he treats it like a regular ball. I have taught him to push his nose into it and get the food, and he will when we are just working on that. But if I use it as a reinforcer, he just retrieves it!!

 

Tessa has always had particular love for working to get food. Her first Christmas present was a food bowl, and to get her to unwrap it, I put some kibble in it. She tore that right open to get to the food, and she thought that was the best!! So the Lotus ball just came naturally to her and she is really motivated by it.

 

Funny how different dogs have different opinions of the same thing.

[Root Beer]

I've used pill containers with lids to throw food for my dog - I did it originally to reteach a retrieve (she has to bring it back to get it opened!)

 

I had used closed containers with Tessa, but they didn't really work for her because me moving in to open it for her kind of killed it for her. She doesn't retrieve anything. Baited targets . . . eh! Not super effective for her, although they were helpful when she was first learning some things. And tossed treats are always a hit with her, but that never seemed to get the distance message across to her for some reason.

 

and own a couple of Lotus balls and like them, for delivering food 'out there', though honestly I don't need them so much with either of mine. Apparently I'm fantastic at teaching my dog to send (and/or lucky enough to have dogs who will).

 

I'm just really really bad at letting go enough to do it.

That's interesting.

 

I was working with a beginner student a couple of weeks and she was genuinely distressed that her dog was running ahead of her to take jumps. I was not super successful at explaining that we actually wanted the dog to run ahead in that exercise and that there are times when that's a good thing. I'm not saying you are anything like that - it's just the idea of reluctance to let go enough to send the dog ahead. Her reluctance was coming from a strong emotional place and I can't say I understand it.

 

In her case, I think she perceived allowing the dog to go ahead of her as a loss of control. Like we were letting the dog "get away with" something.

 

If I may ask - what holds you back from letting go to work distance in Agility? I'm just curious. After working so hard to actually get Tessa to break away from me and work at a distance, I am intrigued by reluctance to do so. I can already picture Bandit doing sequences at serious distance and the idea is exhilarating!!

 

 

And I'm NADAC which... really is designed for distance and speed.

 

Yep! Tessa needs one more Tunneler leg and two Weavers from back before she and I started CPE. When we finish our C-ATCH, I am going to take her back to NADAC to try to finish those two titles. I hate to leave any titles unfinished, unless there is a good reason not to finish them.

 

I think it will be fun to run the wide open courses with her after years of many more twists and turns!!

[CptJack]

Truthfully, I imagine that it's very similar to the situation with your student.

 

I have one major, major, stumbling block in agility and it isn't the dog or training the dog. It's that I have no confidence. I don't trust my training, and by extension don't trust the dog. So, I default to micromanaging and babysitting way, way more than is helpful.

 

I've gotten much, much better as I've loosened up and become more familiar with the sport, the environment, and the people, but the amount of unfair I was to Kylie in anticipating dismal failure every time I tried anything is really sad. Molly? I had some justification for micromanaging in class type environments. Ironically, because I'm familiar with the environment and people and more comfortable there now, I've loosened up with faster.

 

Kylie's biggest issue, ever, was that she sometimes barked at people and didn't want to be pet by strangers. AND YET, I micromanaged the HECK out of that poor dog.

 

We're better now, than we were. I still have this issue where I send the dog to do something and then stand there and watch her do it rather than getting where I need to be, but better. She gets ahead of me now and I don't completely freak out, I just keep throwing cues at her in a frantic and adrenaline fueled way and HOPE it works out.

 

Molly and I are, thus far, fine. Largely because I can't not be. She's going and I'm either telling her what to do or she's doing what she wants but unlike Kylie 'come in and wait for instruction' isn't on the agenda.

TL;DR: Lack of confidence and trust.

[CptJack]

Oh and the real irony?

I am not bothered at all by making a fool of myself, not having a good run, not getting the Q, whatever. ...Probably because that's what I expect to happen.

It's just you'd think if I didn't care I'd be more willing to take risks, let the dog go, and TRY, rather than taking a year or so to be willing to give it a shot.

[Root Beer]

Actually, I understand that. I have long had a tendency to babysit way too much. Tessa cured me of that on jumps very early on by simply running out around them when I tried to micromanage her jumping!! I had to give her a good lateral bubble to work in and then she was perfect.

 

But I do tend to babysit contacts and weaves with her.

 

It's a fine line. If I get out too far ahead of her, she will pop out of the weaves or fly off a contact to hurry to catch up to me. But I also have to keep back and trust her to do her thing.

 

Bandit is taking private Agility lessons now, and we were working on channel weaves yesterday. He was hesitant to go through the channel and he would try running around the whole apparatus. I really had to fight the urge to use my motion to show him to go into the channel! I had to work on trusting him to figure out where he needed to go. I had to work very hard to allow him to do that. And he did it.

 

Back when I started running Tessa, one of our instructors said to me very vigorously, "YOU HAVE TO TRUST YOUR DOG". She was right, but . . . . I had to develop the confidence that I needed to trust her. I didn't have it back then. Shoot, I'm still working on it now, even though we've come a long way.

 

So, I do understand that. I think trusting the dog is a two way thing. The dog has to have enough success for me to know that she can do it - and that it won't just be a fluke!

 

I knew she could get those weaves on that gamble. I really knew it. I was excited to let her go try because I knew it. If I hadn't known it . . . how could I have trusted her? I needed to know it, and that only comes with experience.

 

I think I do trust Bandit more because Tessa has taught me some stuff . . .

 

And maybe with the person I was working with, that was it, too. Somehow I thought that if she could see that her dog could do the exercise, she would relax about letting him do it, but if she doesn't have the experience to trust him yet . . . she just doesn't.

 

I get that.

[mum24dog]

You do have a tendency to wait for her which slows her down even more. I know what it's like because Eddie was the hardest and most exhausting dog I ever ran.

 

From your videos I would go back to breaking down sequences into tiny bite sized chunks, starting with one jump. If you can't get confidence and independence over smaller sequences it's a big ask to do it in competition.

 

The seeds of distance work are sown right at the beginning in the foundation work before you even see equipment.

 

And I note that you say that you have had years of twisty courses. If you have a reluctant dog they can be very demotivating. Start simple and with lots of space where the dog doesn't have much choice of which obstacle to take.

 

Sorry if I sound critical but I've been there. If I had trained Eddie from the start he might have been different but I took him over from my daughter, then in her early teens, as he proved a disappointment to her as her expectations were unrealistically high. I would do things differently if I had my time over with him.

[CptJack]

You know, I spent a lot time last night knitting and trying to sort my thoughts out about this. I don't think I really succeeded.

 

I think to some degree I trust Molly more because Molly is more confident herself. She's a very different dog than Kylie. Kylie is soft. She demotivates and flattens easily. She needs to succeed to build confidence - and she HAS built it. Early in the game leaving me to go through a tunnel was a challenge; we had to put me at the end she was running to, to get her to go. Later on she'd do anything, but slowly and with me beside her.

 

That's not the case anymore.

 

At all.

She's an 8" dog running 3.8 YPS and coming in more than twenty seconds under SCT, and that's with her weaves going to heck in trial. (And to be clear, we had so many time faults our first trial, and even the second in tunnelers). I've seen her do faster. Is that 'Border Collie' fast? No, but she's an EIGHT INCH DOG.

 

We're working on independent contacts now, both for the independence and because she never learned to collect and suddenly needs to, to avoid falling off the end. We are playing with crazy, crazy long lead outs, though I still need to not just stop and watch her come toward me with awe and amazement (and some other things - honestly I'm still not good at distance at all, but I AM trying to work on it).

 

But she's gained so, so much confidence, and in turn I'm gaining a ton of it, too because I saw her going and doing and SUCCEEDING. Or maybe I learned to trust her more and she gained confidence to succeed. I really don't know. I do know that Molly's never been unwilling to leave me in the dust and as a result I never did as much babysitting her.

Chicken and egg, maybe? I really don't know which came first.

I am liking where we're going now, and I DO think that the wide open NADAC courses have helped her. If we ever get the trial weave issues resolved, we'll be doing great. Or, at least, we will have seen the end of her confidence and stress issues.

[Blackdawgs]

It is not about trust.

 

It is the dog's job to perform the obstacles and the handler's job to steer. Once the dog understands its job, sends and lateral distance are easy.

 

If my dog is running on a line, I simply expect him to take all of the obstacles on that line unless I tell him otherwise. Period.

 

You can teach puppies (and untrained dogs) distance work and independence with targets, cones, jump standards, running boards, and a single set of 2X2s.

[CptJack]

Well, maybe it's not trust about you but it IS about trust for me.

I trained my dogs to do distance work. My elder dog knew how to do distance work and send halfway across the ring to take obstacles and lines of obstacles before *I* could send her and not immediately want to run after her, and certainly before I was prepared to do it in a trial setting. Granted, if my timing was slow and bad she'd do what I sent her out to do and glue herself to my side again, and she'd get increasingly slow at greater distances in challenging environments because she stresses low, but she knew how to do it and would.

If I would, but I wouldn't often, didn't want to, and it kind of freaked me out.

 

Why? I didn't trust my training to hold up and I didn't trust the dog to do it, IN SPITE of having trained for it from day one, before the dog had ever seen an obstacle besides, maybe, a tunnel - it really is woven into our foundations. That's why I said I'm fantastic at training it and crap at using it.

 

I had to trust myself, my training, and my dog and that took some time to build.

[Root Beer]

It is not about trust.

 

It is the dog's job to perform the obstacles and the handler's job to steer. Once the dog understands its job, sends and lateral distance are easy.

 

If my dog is running on a line, I simply expect him to take all of the obstacles on that line unless I tell him otherwise. Period.

 

It sure was about trust for me on Saturday.

 

I contrast my experience with this distance gamble to one that Tessa and I attempted almost a year ago.

 

That time I knew full well that the only way she was going to accomplish it would be a fluke. I knew that she had no understanding of the concept of distance (in spite of work with cones and targets and jump stanchions), but we gave it a try, and she did pretty much what I could have predicted. She came back to me instead of going out to take the jump after she came out of the tunnel. And when I tried to send her at that point, she went back into the tunnel, which was closest to us.

 

There was no trust on my part because I knew she didn't have the skill. And I didn't do her trust in my handling any favors when my body language, as she then understood it, told her one thing, but I was standing there trying to get her to do something else!

 

This experience was completely different. Trust was there - and it was awesome!! I knew for a fact that she could do it, even though we had not worked weaves at any distance per se. When I gave her the "go" cue that she now understands completely, she knew exactly what I wanted, and there was no contradiction in what I was asking and what she understood. Definitely a trust boost for her.

 

There is definitely something more happening here than performing and steering. We are growing as a team. I consider trust to be at the root of it. I am willing to use skills that I was too nervous to try before. A strong sense that I can rely on Tessa to perform at the level of her training in the competition ring . . . what is that if not trust?

[CptJack]

Even beyond distance, so much of this stuff is trust - in your training, and in your dog, and your dog in you.

 

Molly started agility classes in January, so reactive she had to be behind barriers. Last week she completed her first whole course, in a show 'n go. YES, we trained and we worked, and managed and were careful - but there were still a whole bunch of leaps of 'faith' (not really -the work was there, but still) leading up to that point. Lots and lots of careful testing and building of trusting her to listen, to stay with me, to work with me instead of going after other dogs, or just fleeing.

 

The whole thing is an exercise in trust with her, built in tiny stages as she realized I was going to keep her safe and I realized she wasn't going to do something dangerous or awful.

 

I don't know what you call that except trust, really.

[Root Beer]

I think it may be that when one works with a dog who has worked through a struggle like reactivity, or fear of every living human person, the role of trust in Agility might just be a lot more "in your face". I can't say I ever really thought about trust with Maddie. She was a happy-go-lucky party girl and I just wasn't thinking in those terms.

 

But I remember when Tessa's only sense of safety came from "hiding" on my furniture or blending herself in with my other four dogs to "vanish". I remember the first time I saw her let go enough to run in the yard. I remember when she could not trust me, or anyone, enough to put her body into a tunnel if anyone was behind her, even if there was a trail of chicken inside of it. I remember when she struggled to let go of survival mode long enough to let herself enjoy taking a jump.

 

Tessa and I would have nothing if we didn't have trust.

 

And now - with distance work - we are taking that to a new level. But I recognize it as the same thing. It's refined and centered more on actual Agility than on her transformation from street dog to performance partner, but at the root, it's still the same.

 

I think with Bandit it will be different. I would say that trust will still play into it, but with him I can focus more on the fun of playing the game from the start. There is a degree of trust that I can take for granted with him because the kinds of things that Tessa and I had to work very hard to overcome aren't even on his radar (what a privilege it has been to be able to provide him with that kind of life! ) For him I expect that distance work will be about learning the actual skills. For Tessa it required (and still requires) a good deal more.

[Root Beer]

Sorry if I sound critical but I've been there. If I had trained Eddie from the start he might have been different but I took him over from my daughter, then in her early teens, as he proved a disappointment to her as her expectations were unrealistically high. I would do things differently if I had my time over with him.

 

I understand where you are coming from, and your advice is very good.

 

It would be very good to spend some time focusing on short sequences with her, building confidence and motivation. Especially now that I know the power of the Lotus Ball with her and could use that as a strong reinforcer.

 

I can't say that I would do things differently with Tessa if I had it to do over. She required a different approach, and I am very proud of her and how far she has come.

 

But now that she is past so much of that, I am always eager to build her confidence further and continue to build her enjoyment of the game.

 

Last winter I told a friend that I wanted to work with Tessa on sending ahead, and my friend asked me "why"? My reply: because I believe that we can do it and she can love it. I am very glad I went with it because we are enjoying aspects of Agility now that we couldn't even touch before.

[mum24dog]

If ever Eddie would take obstacles on his own it was a big thing as it meant that he was doing it because he wanted to not because I wanted him to. Unfortunately it didn't happen often enough and I let him retire as I wasn't enjoying running him and he wasn't having fun either.

 

Maybe a reflection of my lack of commitment but the problem was that he needed someone who could run faster to keep him moving so he had less time to think about what he found worrying. I couldn't trust him so waited for him which made him anxious because he didn't know what was coming next.

 

He's nearly 13 now and I hope I've learned from my mistakes. I'm sure I will make different ones with my current dog.

[gcv-border]

 

 

Last winter I told a friend that I wanted to work with Tessa on sending ahead, and my friend asked me "why"?

These types of questions really bug me. My answer is "Why not?" It is a different challenge,It will enhance our performance, I am not harming my dog in trying this (insert specific task here), It will make my dog faster, If done appropriately, it may enhance my dogs enjoyment in the game, etc.

 

I also hate hearing "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." If there is a problem, or the task can be performed more efficiently, faster, better, whatever, why not try and fix it? Why be happy with a 'just good enough'?

 

Obviously, one must temper what to improve with the consequences and must do it in a safe manner, but otherwise -- Hey, go for it. At the very least, you will have learned something - maybe how to do it better!

 

4 years ago, when I started training running contacts because (1) my dog had shoulder surgery and (2) he was the type of dog that ran very fast over a contact (specifically the AF) and then slammed to a stop (with the resulting stress on his shoulder), my trainer also said "Why?". I was very new to agility and didn't have a specific answer other than the above, but even then, I was so taken aback by the question that I didn't verbalize my reasons at the time. I had to come home and think about it.

 

Off my soap box now!

[Root Beer]

To be fair, in the case of this friend, I think, there was some genuine concern that I might be putting a game-centered goal above Tessa's enjoyment of the game - she does genuinely love running along with me and perhaps it seemed that I was disregarding that. And, perhaps there was concern that I might become pushy with her in asking for distance/sending.

 

And that would be a concern of mine, too. I always want this to be about Tessa's enjoyment. It was definitely part of the goal all along to ensure that she would be happy and confident as we went along with the training.

 

I made sure when I was training the send that my attitude was, "this is a new game/skill" and I made sure she was happy throughout the process. I believe, Jovi, you saw some of the video on youtube of her sending around the post last spring? She was definitely a happy girl - relaxed, interested in the game, and enjoying building a new skill. And I was amazed at the time with the distance we built!

 

We took our time - the training happened over about 6 months. And I made sure Tessa was never put in a position where I was asking for too much too soon.

 

And we built it into a skill that she seems to enjoy just as much as she enjoys running along with me. I am very proud of her for that.

 

I'm not sure my friend's attitude was so much "it ain't broke, don't fix it" (which would have bothered me) as, "Tessa is enjoying Agility this way, why risk diminishing that?" And that was a just question to consider.

 

When it came down to it, I did believe that I could train the skill and not take anything away from her enjoyment of our runs.

 

I believe Tessa has the potential to learn quite a bit more. I love that we are still learning. But I am always careful to make sure I am not pushing her to fast or too far.

[CptJack]

I don't think distance is different in any real way than any other skill you teach in agility, or agility as a whole.

Any time you introduce a new skill, you risk the dog stressing out and no longer enjoying the game. Conversely, you realize that the potential to increase the dog's confidence and performance is there. Stopped contacts, running contacts, going through a tunnel in the first place, weaves, whatever.

Yes, some dogs will do it all without a hint of stress or struggle -Molly certainly did - but by no means all of them. So getting the dog to stop on the contact, or go through the weaves, or use distance, or coax them through a tunnel - it's ALL a balancing act between pushing the dog and growing confidence and enjoyment of the game and pushing so hard you break the fun.

 

That's kind of what agility IS.

 

To whit: The question still kind of bugs me, but it's your friend and you know

[gcv-border]

I'm not sure my friend's attitude was so much "it ain't broke, don't fix it" (which would have bothered me) as, "Tessa is enjoying Agility this way, why risk diminishing that?" And that was a just question to consider.

I agree with the arguments that both you and CpnJack make regarding: not stressing out the dog with training methods or by asking too much or asking too much too soon - pretty much what I said in my post above. The "Why not?" should always be tempered with what is best for the dog

 

BUT, I still believe that one can never know until you TRY it. Try it once in a reasonable way. The dog may surprise you - in a good way. If it doesn't work, the dog wasn't ready, and you can return to your previous program, but by trying, you may also have learned something that allows you to move forward toward an enhanced goal.

 

When I took tracking lessons with Torque (a short 8 week course), the instructor was an awesome lady. Very up, seemed to be a bit of an airhead, super perky - but boy, she was effective, without me or the dog realizing it (until I thought upon it later). Her attitude was "Well, let's try it. If it doesn't work, we have learned something. And if it does work, we will continue." paraphrasing her approach since we never specifically talked about what she did.

 

I think that she had been doing it (SAR work, training dogs for air scent, tracking and cadaver work and as a side, also training service dogs) for so long, she was very instinctive.

 

At the end of the 8 session tracking course, Torque did a 60 minute aged track, ~1/3 mile that went over grass, gravel, a small creek, up a hill and through a fence. Was he perfect? Heck no, but he showed he could track to a target (person) and he had the fundamentals which, if I wanted to pursue tracking, I could have polished up a bit (i.e. precision in following a track [he would switch back and forth between tracking and air scenting to follow the trail which is frowned upon in a tracking competition] and he sometimes went too fast and would lose the track, but he realized it pretty fast and would come back to find it [again, not perfect, but it works]). In contrast, some of my friends who have participated in the local AKC tracking classes, are happy that their dog precisely follows a 300 yard track in a mowed field at the end of 8 weeks.

[gcv-border]

Thought about this some more -- I don't want to give the impression that I am advocating an approach a la "sink or swim". I definitely think that one should approach a goal gradually, and sometimes you can stretch a little just to see how your dog responds. What I take issue with is the attitude that one shouldn't even try.