mbc1963 Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 OK! My new dog has been home for a week now, and I'd like some general advice about early training. She's a shy girl, and quite submissive as far as I can tell. It took her 2 days (of longing looks and invitations) before she would sit next to me on the couch. She won't go near her food until I'm explicit that it is HER food, not mine, and that she is welcome to eat it. She won't take chicken from my hands if she is at all spooked by anything (quick movements, a loud noise, a stranger on the road). She will leave me to explore the yard, but quickly runs back to me for reassurance when she realizes she is 30 feet away. So, in general, still quite hesitant. But, she's getting less so every day, and showing more frisky behavior, and having fun in general, each day. My question is: when doing early training ("sit," "lie down," "stay," etc.)... how much should I push, and how much should I back off and let her acclimate? All the books say that she should do a natural "sit" if I raise food over her head, close to her. This has worked maybe 3 times, when she was on the couch and had nowhere to go - otherwise, she will not sit, but will back up and back up. The hand over her head seems threatening to her, as does pushing on her rump. My putting hands on her (to push her rump, tug her towards me, etc.) seems to scare her and send her back two steps as far as feeling happy and fearless in my house. I'm concerned that any whiff of chicken - for training - is going to make her hesitant rather than eager. My instinct - the voice I hear 90% of the time - is to let it lie and wait until she trusts me better. Not knowing "sit" right now is hardly a big concern. Also, attempting training when she can't participate (because of fear) reinforces her not participating in training, which could work against me long-term. Instinct is countered by a smaller 10% voice saying, "Maybe you're teaching her that she only has to do what she feels like doing - that she can opt out of things she doesn't enjoy." OK, smarter dog folks: what is your take? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 I like training in early days because I think it helps build confidence and trust in the dog and the relationship with the owner. HOWEVER, if she is having trouble with sit because the hand over her feels threatening, don't teach sit right now . I would also not try and teach down, because lying down requires a dog have a certain level of comfort in the environment (like Molly won't 'down' in a new agility facility kind of thing). Maybe try and teach something super, duper, easy - like watch me, touch if she's comfortable approaching you, or maybe spin to help her learn to follow a lure or just even loading up a clicker or marker word (yes) for use later. Anything that is easy and a quick way for the dog to have success, get some treats, and to get a little more into the game/catch onto what the game is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach BCs Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 You could try labeling behaviors. If she sits, tell her "good sit". From your description, she's a soft girl. I wouldn't be concerned about not training her right now. I wouldn't push much at all. Does she seem to like the chicken? Maybe switch up treats? Typically I train with steak, but I've found for training a new trick or behavior I needed something else. Turns out Tex will turn himself inside out for hush puppies. (Yes, they're terrible, but it's not that often.) Georgia will only work for string cheese. Faith couldn't care less about food. She only wants toys. So after all my rambling my advice is to not worry about training and just get to know your new friend. It will all come together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 Listen to your gut feeling! You don't have to offer food if it makes her unsure. Does she like petting? Introduce her to.gentle massage. Instead of basic obedience, go exploring with her to build confidence - go upstairs, go downstairs, introduce her to new things and praise her in a way she finds rewarding. With my late Missy, I'd just tell her what a good girl she was and she just ate it up. It sounds like she's a dog who really wants to please but just isn't sure. So I'd let her get comfortable and praise the things she offered that I liked instead of asking for things that seem to be making her more unsure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 I had a super shy Sheltie and it was a balance of gently pushing, trying not to overface the dog. Moving too fast could result in a setback. I really feel the dog needs to set a good portion of the pace. Think of your own fears and someone asking/pushing you to directly confront what scares you. With my shy guy, it was always better to err on the side of moving too slowly than too fast. The other thing is with time and relationship building, your dog's trust in you will help those times when you don't or can't go at a slower pace. One week is so super early in your journey with this dog, I wouldn't worry that she is learning she only needs to do what she enjoys. You have the rest of her life to plot ways to move her out of her comfort zones You are already noticing what she finds demotivating or upsetting such as physically assisting her into a sit. So you take that info and work from there. When I used to train agility classes, I noticed that the majority of dogs deflated somewhat when their handlers led them by the collar or put their hands on them to get in a certain position. I made a rule that students had to keep their hands off the dog during exercises and saw much more eager to play dogs. At this point, I would avoid physical touch she doesn't like since she is still getting to know you. However, in the future I would play games where touching, taking, grabbing her collar is highly rewarded. Same thing with at first very gently pushing her around so she is ok with at least your hands on her. Another important thing is to find what the dog enjoys and use that in training or build on that for an activity. For instance, obedience wasn't rewarding enough for my shy guy to relax so I eventually gave up on competing with him in that sport. However, after an initial hard sell with agility (introducing it completely wrong but by that point we had been together for a couple years so he recovered), he loved the sport and he really was able to shine in competition and play. I didn't clicker train my shy dog and now think that would have been very helpful in building confidence and making training fun. You may need a soft clicker or to use a verbal market. I am not great at shaping and usually use lures that I quickly fade to get a new behavior. And I tend to be stingy with the types of "treats" I use (often kibble). But when my dogs see me with a clicker, they know it is party time. I feel like I am rambling so I will end by saying it is crucial to be patient yet persistent with shy dogs. And building trust will help them get through rough experiences and trying times. Right now you are both in the early days of getting to know each other. Have fun and remember there is plenty of time for her to expand her horizons with you there to guide and support her. I have a soft spot for the shy dogs. It is so rewarding to watch them gain confidence and skills. I admire their own amazing brand of courage as they learn to take on the scary things in life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 I agree. Listen to the 90% voice for now. One week isn't nearly enough time for a shy dog to gain enough confidence in her new surroundings and new person to risk that confidence by pushing too hard. There's plenty of time later for that after she knows she can trust you. The really cool thing about your being her sole go-to person for reassurance is that she'll bond really closely to you . . . if you don't blow it by pushing too hard and expecting too much from her now. If past experience with fosters and my own timid-when-new adoptee Bodhi is indicative, she'll really start coming along very quickly once that relationship's solid. In the meantime, charge a clicker (or a verbal marker -- I often use mouth clicks) and keep it with you. You can capture naturals sits, downs and recalls when they happen on their own without putting one bit of pressure on her. Then when she's able to accept a bit more pressure from you, she'll already be primed to understand the concept of reinforcement and learning. Fun days ahead for both of you. She sounds really sweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chan Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 I agree with all the encouragement to take some time and let her get adjusted at her own pace. I also think the clicker is a wonderful idea. Some people like to charge it first- which means simply click and give a treat, repeat, repeat, repeat. Another option is to put an object on the floor (box, mat, etc) and click for any interaction with it at all. They key is ANY interaction - glancing at it with her eyes, turning her head or moving toward it. In the beginning it can even be just not look at you and glancing away or somewhere in the vicinity of where the object is. Don't have any behavior in mind that you are working towards initially - just click for any interest in it at all. Shaping is great for building confidence in a dog - there are no consequences for being wrong so it's very safe. Also, you can just toss the reward to her (or toward the object to help her focus on that) so she doesn't even have to take it from your hand. It's fun to see the lightbulb turn on once they learn they can control the click/treat with their behavior - they love it. I have heard of some dogs that are afraid of the click of a regular clicker and other suggestion for a softer sound is a tongue click or a pen that you click the top to get it to extend (I hope that makes sense). Good luck and have fun! I bet you'll be amazed at how far she comes in just a few weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medic09 Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 In the ER we'd always say, "damn, the patient didn't read the medical text." Same goes for dogs. The good books are generally good; but your dog is still an individual. I agree with all the others. Give her time and love and let her develop some confidence in you, and in her ability to read you. The big thing (for any dog, really) is to develop trust. As she feels more safe, the other things will come too. BTW, relating to your title: it sounds from here like you won't want to "push' this dog. Encourage, teach, train - but if this dog has a really soft personality, "pushing" won't go over as well as some consistent, clear direction. The really soft dogs don't really need to be "pushed"; but they don't tolerate it very well, either. There definitely is a middle path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tess's Girl Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 I've had Tess for almost two years and she's just now where she enjoys "training". At first my asking her to do almost anything was just too much pressure so I merely rewarded things I like that she did. Lay down quietly, sitting before going out the door. She was not food motivated at all and would not have anything to do with the clicker, I even tried a ball point pen. So I just let it go. As she got comfortable she began to learn things. I very rarely actually made a specific time to "teach" any behaviors. I just helped her learn them through our daily interactions. She learned the cue for "down" because she would always lie down to meet a new person or dog and I just named it. She learned sit and a down stay with her ball out in the dog park (which was months after I got her). The two things I taught the earliest were watch me and touch because they take very little effort on the part of the dog. Even now when she's fairly stable and unafraid if she doesn't know what I'm asking her she just lays down and rolls over on her side. Though since I've started clicker training Crow she will come into the room and do a few things for me. She's finally decided it's kind of fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 BTW, relating to your title: it sounds from here like you won't want to "push' this dog. Encourage, teach, train - but if this dog has a really soft personality, "pushing" won't go over as well as some consistent, clear direction. The really soft dogs don't really need to be "pushed"; but they don't tolerate it very well, either. There definitely is a middle path. Ah, yes. The Middle Path. The Buddha was definitely onto something. I agree with the Medic. Chances are this is not a dog you'll ever be able to really push, or at best will be able to push only very gently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Definitely take it easy with her and let her find her own path, and mostly at her own pace. I would suggest that you use "shaping" at your training technique. This means you do not lure (as in raising your hand over her head with a treat in it) or manipulation (as in pushing down on her rump) in order to teach a behavior. Rather, you simply stand or sit next to her with the clicker and treats and wait until she decides to sit down and then you click and treat. This may take some time. But be patient; it is worth it! I once stood for 20 minutes waiting for a scared dog to decide to sit down so I could click and treat. It seemed like an eternity at the time, but the dog sat again after 3 minutes. And then (probably because she was a border collie) she caught on that sitting would earn a treat and she sat again after only 30 seconds. Next time, it was right away, and that is how long it took to train her to sit: less than half an hour. Once she was coming up to me and sitting down regularly, looking at me expecting food, then I started saying "Sit" to her (in a very nice encouraging tone, not a commanding tone) just as she was starting to sit down. And then as soon as her rump touched the floor she got click and treat. Use the same method to teach everything else. You can look up "shaping behaviors with a clicker" on YouTube and see videos of people doing this. Although it seems tedious at first, it really is extremely effective, because the dog is choosing to do the behavior on their own, and very often it really ends up taking less time to train the dog than other methods. You end up with a dog who wants to do things for you, rather than a dog who thinks he or she has to, and once they get the idea of the clicker training you can teach them anything. I have used this with a fairly large number of foster dogs, most of whom came to me scared to one degree or another, and it is extremely effective. best of luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted July 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 Thanks for all the replies. I will go with your advice and my instinct and not push Cricket outside her safe place. And I will start "loading a clicker" today, though I'm going to use mouth clicks, because when I'm walking the dog I often have a full poop bag in one hand and a leash in the other - I've always thought it'd be really hard to time clicks correctly while managing so much paraphernalia! She really is learning quickly: started responding to her new name after 3 days, seems to fully understand "wait" and "kennel up" (maybe was taught at her foster home?), and is happy to stop digging when I say "no digging." I'm trying to teach her the important nouns as we walk: squirrel, birds, supper, front door, cross the street, drink of water, left side, walk. Interesting to think of her as a "soft dog." I'd say she is, more than any dog I've had before. My sister has two American Eskimo dogs - both of whom are very submissive, and one of whom was absolutely terrified of my old boy Buddy - and Cricket is even shy of encroaching on THEIR space. Last night she went face to face with the more submissive one, and gave her a kiss, and even started a hopeful little play bow. I find it hilarious that my new girl is even timid about approaching the least dominant dog I can think of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted July 6, 2015 Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 I never push shy dogs. I just let them come around in their own time. When they get used to their new situation and new people they gain confidence. I actually just kind of ignore them. Take all the pressure off. Just let them explore when they think no one is watching them. I don't make a lot of eye contact if that seems to bother them. But I do talk to them a lot. When they start to feel better about the new situation they begin to get curious about stuff. Then we start to do little stuff and just work up at the rate the dog seems able to handle. They come around. Just give all the time and space the dog needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medic09 Posted July 6, 2015 Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 Ah, yes. The Middle Path. The Buddha was definitely onto something. I agree with the Medic. Chances are this is not a dog you'll ever be able to really push, or at best will be able to push only very gently. I don't know about Buddha. It's Rambam/Maimonides in my case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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