I know my standards are high....

[sinman]

I recently obtained an 8 month old BC puppy from a rescue group in my area. They had him listed as a BC mix of course because they can't guarantee anything, but I would say he's pretty high content if not full bred. I am a dog trainer looking to strike out on my own, so my plans are to make him my demo dog. I want to at least title him up to CD/CDX in competitive obedience; not sure if I want to go for UDX or his OTCh.

 

After 4 weeks of inconsistent training (we worked pretty regularly for the first 1-2 weeks I had him and I'm starting to revisit the daily sessions now) I would say overall he is a very good house dog; basically potty trained (still working on holding it overnight sometimes if I sleep late), he'll sit and down fairly reliably and I do trust him off-leash--his recall is the most rock solid thing about him, although sometimes he does make me use my "angry" voice if there's a squirrel in a tree nearby. He knows a handful of other commands, "wait", "leave it", "easy" (for playing with the cat), etc.

 

I would say the two biggest things I'm having an issue with are heeling, both on and off leash, and his "fronts" or the comefore. He is a very submissive dog, and he will lean on me if he's unsure about something, but he really doesn't like being close to me for the sake of being close. It's so strange--this dog had to sleep on my neck the first week I had him but if I ask him to sit riiiight in front of me, he can't do it. He prefers to sit at least 3 inches away.

 

I would say I lean more into the "traditional" methods of training, but I don't do straight compulsion. I am trying using a clicker with him and have had some small successes in targeting the heel, but what other exercises (are there any) to boost his confidence so he feels comfortable enough to sit in front of me and look up, and walk next to me without leaning? Are my expectations too high for an 8 month old? I don't plan on even thinking about showing until he's at least a year old so that gives me till the end of the summer.

 

[teresaserrano]

He's submissive, not very confident, and mainly, he doesn't know you well. And he's very young. Frankly, right now I wouldn't worry too much with the actual training, but a lot more on developing a good solid relationship. Bc's are sensitive and 1 month with you is very little. Once he really knows and trusts you, everything should fall in place. Develop his confidence with lots of positive experiences. So, in short, not having seen the dog and going only by what you say, yes, you are expecting too much too soon.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Border Collies will start working very young which is easy to mistake for maturity. They are slow maturing - most, not until two years of age. While I favor traditional (pet) dog training (koehler plus ethology) one wants to be very careful how much pressure a trainer puts on a dog and how thoroughly and often he/she releases pressure. Border Collies won't accept the constant repititions and drill some breeds will. Worse, once they develop bad habits, those habits are hard to break. My friend Margot Woods says "Border Collies are incident critical. They learn it wrong in a heartbeat then repeat it three times, ce,enting the habit, before you have time to think."

 

The exercises a dog must perfect to excel in formal obedience make no immediate sense to the dog: "Why should I care just where I sit? Or where I walk beside my trainer?" The strength of Koehler method is that it helps the dog answers those questions.

 

Donald McCaig

[Maxi]

Fully agree with the others.

 

Too much pressure/training at a young age can sour a BC...

 

Also remember BCs are very sensitive to human body language/energy

 

Similar to what Mr McCaig says, if you use pressure-release techniques, then proper release of pressure is just as (or maybe even more) important. If you are enforcing obedience, perhaps your body language is giving off unintentional 'negative vibes' which are stopping your dog wanting to be too close. Perhaps he is picking up on your frustration.

 

Don't expect too much too soon.Instead, spend time building a strong bond with your youngster and just develop his basic manners rather than enforced drill obedience training..

 

Gve him time him to mature. If you develop a strong partnership and if your dog trusts you...then you will find it easier to train him later on. However, if your dog feels uncertain about you, then you may find you always need to 'fight' with him to get him to do what you want..

[mum24dog]

If you are a dog trainer intending to teach or currently teaching other people the first thing you need to know is when to back off.

 

What Maxi and others said.

 

My youngster is 10 months now and throughout his life I have tested him periodically to see if he was ready to learn the sorts of formal exercises you are teaching and it's only in the last few weeks that I have judged that he is. No battles, no asking too much of his immature mind and body, and he is rocketing away now.

 

Your dog shouldn't be a tool to demonstrate what a great trainer you are and how fast you can train him. He is an individual - listen to him.

 

I have high agility and not so high obedience ambitions for my dog too but I don't allow them to colour the pressure I put on him (hopefully very little). If he meets my ambitions great, if he doesn't that's also fine. He's a dog and he owes me nothing.

[sinman]

I've been training dogs for years,but I think the fact that he caught on quickly has thrown me off. My parents had/have Shelties at home but they don't have the nuances of the BC. He is not a shy dog, but if we are in a strange place (Petsmart, for example) if I ask him to sit he will sit so perfectly next to me or even just on top of my feet. Not so much the case in other places that are familiar to him. Yet he's actually climbed a tree to get to a group of kids he wanted to say hi to at the park.

 

I don't do drills as much as I do quick rapid successions and we play a LOT. Usually at the end he gets to play fetch which he loves, even though I consider him more food motivated than play motivated. I never train more than 10 minutes at a time, just long enough really to get something good out of him and leave it at that. Currently I'm really trying to work on his "stay", since he did have the habit of breaking it the first time, and then the second time was when it stuck (as in Donald's post). I started using the clicker as a faster way to target rather than me fumbling with the treats in my hand. I don't find myself getting frustrated with him, I have had some very slow learning dogs so he's well ahead of the class still at this point. Quite honestly he makes me laugh all of the time, especially since I've gotten to watch him go through his last growth spurt.

 

It's funny you're all saying to give him time and give him positive experiences and allow him to bond....Obedience, ideally, is all about creating a language that you communicate in and for most under-confident dogs, it helps to give them things that they know how to tackle. I really honestly wouldn't know what else to do besides what I'm doing (I do tend to take him everywhere that it's acceptable for him to go, and he does go to daycare since I don't work from home and can't bring him with me). I alternate "active" weekends and "rest" weekends for us since he does get a little worn out if he's always on the go, even though he'd probably run himself into the ground if I wanted him to.

 

I don't consider him a "tool" about how fast I can train a dog--the other 300 and something dogs/clients I've worked with can attest to that, along with all of their testimonials. However, I do feel like a dog trainer should have a dog that is trained up. When you're looking for a horse trainer you don't pay money to someone who's never shown or even ridden and dogs should be the same, although they aren't for some reason.

 

I do feel like 6-9 months for a CD dog is a reasonable timeline, considering that, other than the off-leash heel, the AKC/UKC standards are all pretty much household behaviors.

[alligande]

Is this your first border collie? If so you need to realize they are quirky dogs and do take awhile to adapt and feel comfortable in new environments and with new people. You have only had him for a month, with my own rescues and foster dogs I usually let them just get comfortable with me and our home before I start trying to train anything, that could be up to a couple of months. I know nothing about obediance I am an agility competitor and my goal when I am teaching foundation work is just building a bond, through simple games before we ever introduce the actual behaviour we need for the sport, that way we are not corrupting needed behaviours because the dog is not ready to work with its owner.

[mum24dog]

Sinman - Dogs don't work to an arbitrary timeline. It takes as long as it takes for each one.

 

I agree you don't want an out of control dog if you are teaching others, and setting nominal goals is no bad thing, but they should be no more than that. Just because other dogs have fitted into the box doesn't mean that this one will.

 

One of my dogs was performing well in class at 7 months within 24 hours of my getting her, having had no previous training. Another dog took 3 years to get the retrieve.

[teresaserrano]

From your last post it seems you're doing right by him and know what you're doing and yes, I agree obedience work is very good to strengthen the bond. Don't feel atacked, it's hard to understand a situation by a brief description on line.

 

Still, him not wanting to sit close can mean he still feels a bit intimidated by you, or just he lacks maturity to fully understand the exercise. Either way, a bit more time should solve it.

 

Bc's are very inteligent and learn quickly, but they are quirky and it could just be that at some point he understood that distance to be the right one. I've heard of bc's that understand "sit" as "sit slowly with your head tilted to the left and one ear down" and they do it like that till the owner finally understands that in their eagerness to learn, they thought what one actually wanted was something weird like that.

 

Either way, probably nothing that a bit of patience and work don't solve.

 

As far as maturity goes, Tess has been a fast learner but at 21 mo she's finally showing maturity that one can speak of. I remember multiple ocasions when I told my trainer about Tess, Yeah, but she's still very imature... and he, a german shepherd guy, would say, not at her age she shouldn't be, but guess what, she really was. Smart and eager to learn, lives to do stuff with me, but slow maturing. It happened more than once that I introduced something new and I could see her toying with the novel concept, and seemingly understanding it, and then not... I would go, such a smart dog, why don't you get this?... And then a few months later I would go back to it and she would INSTANTLY get it.

[Sekah]

As far as the actual mechanics of the exercise are concerned, I would use platforms to show proper position and build muscle memory. Maybe do rapid successions where the release away from you to chase a ball is the reward if he's uncomfortable with the proximity.

 

I agree that you're probably asking for too much too fast. I stepped into the rally ring when Cohen was 8 months old, and was in the obedience ring with her when she was 16 months or so. We finished off our rally titles and novice obedience titles in very short order. Then... I took a break. It's been ~3 years since I last stepped into an obedience ring. I took some time off to work on engagement and motivation since I'm also a perfectionist. One of these days I'll go back to show in open and maybe eventually utility.

 

I can understand the desire to start trialing. But obedience is such a finicky sport that it's not something I would ever recommend someone go into half-cocked.

[GentleLake]

A local Karen Pryor Academy faculty member who works extensively with rescues says that the adjustment period for an adopted dog is more like three months rather than the 2 week honeymoon period I'd heard of so often.

 

When I adopted Bodhi at ~1 1/2 years old, he was still showing me new behaviors 6 months later, indicating to me that it actually took that long for him to become completely acclimated to and comfortable with living with me.

 

I agree with others that your expectations are perhaps a little unrealistic. The dog is an individual and it's more important to recognize and work with that than it is to attempt to adhere to a specific timeline.

 

What I've learned over the years is that the very best trainers (or teachers of any kind) are the ones who are able to adjust their expectations and adapt their methods to the individual dog they're working with at the moment, and the patience to let things progress at a pace that best suits the dog. In the long run, they're the ones who get the best results for a lifetime.

 

Best wishes on your journey with your pup.

[Maralynn]

I tried getting a close front sit from my youngster when he was about 11 m/o. He did it a couple times then got weirded out about something. This is an otherwise pretty confident dog that I got at 9 w/o. So I quit with the front sits and have worked on other stuff. It's been a couple months so I'll try it again shortly and see if I get a different response. I'll probably just try it once, not ask him to be super close and jackpot him for doing it. Then drop it for a couple days before trying again.

[Root Beer]

It has really hit home to me recently that I had developed far higher expectations of my now 1 year and 2 month old than I should have for him at this point, and I have slowed waaaaaaay down on our training. I am actually going to pull him out of Agility class for a while and focus on his Freestyle training (which is far less formal) and add in more building blocks for Agility (work on different surfaces, ground work, etc) and go back to the formal training later.

 

It happens. Sometimes they gain ground quickly, they suddenly seem very mature . . . but I know from previous experience that a Border Collie boy this age (and definitely at any point under a year) is very far from mature.

 

I recommend taking it slow, focus on games and bonding and building a great rapport. That's what I plan to go back to doing for several months. We'll dive back into the formal training when the time is right.

[Laurelin]

A local Karen Pryor Academy faculty member who works extensively with rescues says that the adjustment period for an adopted dog is more like three months rather than the 2 week honeymoon period I'd heard of so often.

 

When I adopted Bodhi at ~1 1/2 years old, he was still showing me new behaviors 6 months later, indicating to me that it actually took that long for him to become completely acclimated to and comfortable with living with me.

 

My timeline has been similar. Hank was supposedly 8-10 months when I got him from the shelter. He's not a BC but some kind of heeler x terrier (maybe, who knows). Very smart dog. Picks up on things faster than any other dog I've ever had.

 

I've had him 8 months now and just this last month or so have I really felt like he has truly opened up to me.

 

I am an agility person too. Hank picked up the sport SO FAST. I mean he was fast, fun, eager. It's easy to try to push too far too fast.

 

I think training HELPS with the relationship but it's not the whole thing. Some of the most meaningful interactions with Hank have been on walks where I've asked nothing- just enjoyed him. Or on moments where he falls asleep in my lap. Quiet little things... Hank and I just came off of a nearly 3 week long training break and are back at it. He's around 16 months old now. Things are going very well. the break did us good.

 

It's easy with gifted dogs to want to show off how fantastic they are right away. But it still takes time to build a rapport with any dog. And baby boy dogs can take a while to mature.

[Maralynn]

My youngster has seemed mature from day one. Always acted like a big dog in a puppy body. Everyone one my SAR team has commented on it. But I've seen a few pups look good but get pushed too fast and things fall apart at 6-8 months. So my goal was to keep things fun and simple for the first year. I figured if he learned how to learn and learned that searching was fun then I'd have the foundation in place to plug anything in when he was mature. This approach has been working amazingly well.

We haven't gone places and worked on OB right off, we've gone places and played focus games. Once he's into the game, I add a little OB and we end on a high note.

 

At this point he could pass a CGC. But he knows how to focus and give simple behaviors in busy places. I fully expect him to be able to pass the FEMA FSA in 6 months.

[CptJack]

Add me to those who have fallen into expecting too much, too fast.

 

For me, some of it has been that I have to consciously and frequently remind myself that my 11 month old BC is a PUPPY. She's always seemed mature to me, but I'm realizing now that a lot of that is because immature on her looks very, very different than it did on previous puppies. Even at 8 weeks old she was remarkably physically coordinated, eager and able to learn and work with people, and never really silly or goofy. She played, but she played very, very intensely and with a lot of purpose. She's also never been a cuddly pup. The sum result was that she seemed like a pretty danged mature puppy/dog FAST. She was less typical puppy at 4 months old than my GSD mutt who was then nearly 2.

Still a puppy. Still needs mental breaks. Still needs *UNSTRUCTURED* playtime with me. An extremely intelligent and responsible kid is still a kid and still needs to be a kid - and while I'm not comparing dogs and kids, ultimately the maturity thing is true. It doesn't come from intelligence. It doesn't come from drive. It doesn't come from willingness. It comes from time, and from experiences, and from space to learn and grow into themselves and experience the world.

 

I have to check myself with Molly with that, a lot. Previous dogs would blow me off, leave, quit, or otherwise very clearly signal to me that they were DONE. Molly doesn't do those things. She doesn't give up. She will keep trying her little heart out, until *I* have the good sense to put an end to it and let her just be a puppy for a while.

[CptJack]

Yeah, that, Maralynn. Molly's always seemed mature and IS mature in a lot of ways. Her immaturity primarily shows in a lack of mental/emotional resilience. That's my fault. I was so busy teaching her how to DO THINGS and execute commands I didn't take the time to help her learn to cope with things and how to DOG.

 

So, yeah. Listen to the smart lady, OP. Do that.

[borasaurus]

When I first got Kieran, to teach him commands I had to kind of move him into position, so I could only do basic ones like sit, shake, and play dead, for example. It only worked because he wanted food so badly that he didn't mind. It definitely took him about three months at least to get used to me (I use the first time he did "crazy play" running around the apartment to mark the end of the adjustment period). He was always a good dog from the start, easily trainable, which made me guilty of working him too hard on occasion.

 

Now, two years later, all the commands he learns are because he offers the behavior. He'll do a million different things hoping to hit the right one. When he gets it right, you can almost see it click in his head and the light bulb comes on. I only noticed recently how different training sessions are for us now versus back then. He's been amazing at agility and flyball (even with no ball drive to speak of). It didn't happen overnight, but it's funny how it almost seems like it did. Although now, when he gets annoyed with me for not rewarding the wrong offered behaviors, he'll start to talk back to me with "roo roos". I think we've both matured a lot in our relationship.

[rushdoggie]

Are my expectations too high for an 8 month old? I don't plan on even thinking about showing until he's at least a year old so that gives me till the end of the summer.

 

Yes. For compairison my now almost 3 year old dog will be debuting in BN this summer. And I am not sure he is quite ready for that! Formal ring obedience is very stressful and takes a great deal of fluency. And you have had him how long?

 

I started using the clicker as a faster way to target rather than me fumbling with the treats in my hand. I don't find myself getting frustrated with him, I have had some very slow learning dogs so he's well ahead of the class still at this point.

I do feel like 6-9 months for a CD dog is a reasonable timeline, considering that, other than the off-leash heel, the AKC/UKC standards are all pretty much household behaviors.

 

But in a very non-householdlike setting. In theory it is, but I suggest slowing down. Also, you can add Open/Utility exercises in now for variety and to increase fun and confidence. My dog learned the start of a go out at his very first lesson. Teaching dogs to move away from you can be harder when you have only taught them to stay close.

 

And as a person who teaches competition obedience to beginner students, I am a huge fan of Denise Fenzi and use her "pocket hand" to teach heel targeting, her heeling games to make heeling more fun and concrete to the dog, and her methods of errorless learning to help dogs develop muscle memory and win. She has a lot of free stuff available online...go look!

[Laurelin]

Kinda OT but have you taken her online heeling classes? I want to play around with rally with Hank but there's no classes here I like. I've done Fenzi classes in other sports and enjoyed them a lot.

[rushdoggie]

Kinda OT but have you taken her online heeling classes? I want to play around with rally with Hank but there's no classes here I like. I've done Fenzi classes in other sports and enjoyed them a lot.

 

No...I am lucky enough that I train with her 2x a year when she comes here and my coach has worked with her for years. I have loved the consistency and understanding I see with dogs who learn to heel with the "pocket hand" and games like Fly, where they get rewarded for appearing in heel position. Lots of drive, clarity and dogs having fun. I have the most beautiful figure 8 you have ever seen with my puppy.

[sinman]

Okay...wow! My schedule has been much crazier than I anticipated so I completely forgot about this whole thread till someone PMed me.

I will say my plans are not to, literally on his birthday enroll in the next obedience trial (although, if they have some of those new baby classes like Beginner Novice or Pre-Novice I might consider it just to expose him to something). Based on his performance thus far, that was my pre-determined timeline. Since I've been working with him this week on the heel, he has improved so much, even off leash. I think he's just a "latent learning" dog, who has to really think about things before doing them perfectly. The clicker has definitely helped targeting wise and I bring it with me now (and some treats) when I drop him off and pick him up from daycare.

My task this coming week will be to figure out how to dog-proof food bins with latches that he can open.