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One problem with this logic is that unless you can provide a continual supply (i.e. breed for the pet market, as opposed to for livestock work) the market will go to where there is a supply. The pet market (in general) does not want to wait for quality, they want that cute pup when they want it (which is one reason why puppy mills do so well).

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"The pet market (in general) does not want to wait for quality, they want that cute pup when they want it (which is one reason why puppy mills do so well)." <- This.

 

John Q public wants a cute puppy on their terms. They want it immediately, without having to search for it, no questions asked and often paid for by credit card.

 

They don't like that breeders ask questions.

 

They don't like that breeders may not have pups available for months or even years after they make an inquiry.

 

They don't like want to drive hours to get their pup (local pet store is 10 minutes away!)

 

They do like the selection and speed of pet shops and brokers, who often promise to provide the exact breed someone wants and on the exact date.

 

They like that pet shops, including those that act as online brokers, take credit cards.

 

The pet shops and brokers even offer flashy, meaningless guarantees.

 

Funny thing is, the Border Collie pups I see coming from these places run $2000 or more, the parents are not health tested, the pups are not health tested prior to sale and the bloodlines are worthless. You can get a much better pup for much less money. Or, you can get a pup of the same "quality" for next to nothing.

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Funny thing is, the Border Collie pups I see coming from these places run $2000 or more, the parents are not health tested, the pups are not health tested prior to sale and the bloodlines are worthless. You can get a much better pup for much less money. Or, you can get a pup of the same "quality" for next to nothing.

 

It's worth pondering that the AKC market, and the pet market influenced by AKC, are able and willing to spend much more for a border collie puppy than the average farmer can. At the time of AKC recognition the average pet buyer had never heard of a border collie. But once they became "an AKC breed" they were included in AKC books and other books aimed at the general public that are meant to help people decide what kind of puppy to get. It is much easier to breed a dog that "looks like a border collie" than to breed a dog that has the working ability of a good border collie. So if you can breed with much less knowledge and effort, and reap a much higher puppy price for doing so, what effect do you think this has on the supply side?

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Dear Doggers,

 

Maury Telleen (who founded the "Draft Horse Journal") told me that the obvious advantages horses had over primitive tractors (homegrown fuel, horses could reproduce themselves) were initially overcome because tractors could be got on credit. Pet stores take credit cards.

 

Donald McCaig

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I like Mark’s line of reasoning. That provides a link between public demand for working BCs and the breeding programs of a working breeder, and uses assumptions that I can also agree are true.

 

But, moving past this detail, I will agree that the AKC might be a contributing factor to the downfall of a working breed, but I don’t agree that they are the principle cause. I like Root Beer’s description of the circular problem. I will agree with that.

 

The real question is, if the goal is to protect the working breed does the downfall of the AKC achieve this? The problem for me is that even if the AKC is a contributing factor, I don’t see it as the principle cause. If I was to look at the decline of a working breed like a disease, I would call the AKC a symptom, not the cause. Treating the symptom will make you feel better but it doesn’t solve the problem. The AKC just capitalizes on a movement that is already taking place.

Why do I believe that? Well, what would the scenario look like if the AKC didn’t exist or if we managed to end the AKC? This eliminates a written conformation standard (which is great, I would love to see that disappear). Does this action protect the working lines? The problem is that these conformation dogs are not the only dogs being bred away from the working standard. Would people still want BCs as ‘pets’? As Frisbee dogs? As agility dogs? As SAR dogs? As a running partner? As a hiking/camping/kayaking/paddleboarding/etc. companion?

 

Sure, the working bred BC can fulfill all of these roles. But just because it can, is that going to prevent a Frisbee dog competitor from breeding their champion BC with another champion BC? What are they going to call that offspring? Will they still advertise those puppies as BCs to the public? Which dogs are the public going to start to know about? The BCs kept on farms, or the BCs out on the streets? This ‘BC’ doesn’t meet the standard, but this scenario without the AKC is still leading to confusion of the breed. Then following the line of reasoning from before, this change in public image leads to the demise of the working breed. Although, an important question in this scenario that I don’t have the answer too is this: would those people with the non-working BCs still claim that there BCs can work (which is definitely an issue with AKC breeders)? Also, one last thought on this is that as the public demand for BCs increases, would working breeders meet this demand? This gets into Root Beer’s circular problem. If the public demands non-working dogs and they are only getting the ‘leftovers’ (not saying that those 'leftovers are bad :)) from working bred litters, then how does the market correct for this? Do working breeders fill the gap and start producing litters without the goal of producing a working pup?

 

In the end, I am all for gathering support for eliminating a conformation standard, explaining that the ‘AKC breeder of merit’ badge is meaningless, arguing that AKC breeders can’t support the claim that their dogs can work, and even arguing for the fact that breeding a BC to any other standard will result in something that is no longer the BC that we all love and know. But I will not argue against the AKC in reference to the working lines. One reason being for what I said above, and the other is that this just isn’t what the public cares about (to be honest, that’s not even my concern. Do I care that there aren’t any working fox terriers? Sorry, but I don’t. Would a working fox terrier be better than a non-working one? ‘Better’ is an opinion and I will not argue ‘better’. The better dog is the one that fits its owner/companion best. Is one of them more of a fox terrier then the other? Yeah, sure, but does the owner care? Probably not. But, do I care that pugs are being breed to exaggerate a facial deformity which is leading to breathing problems? Yes.). As for the working lines, I think that promoting quality breeding among the working lines would be to educate those that are in demand of a working dog, or even promoting the working bred dog in the sporting communities, where many have shown that the working bred dog can excel.

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..what would the scenario look like if the AKC didn’t exist or if we managed to end the AKC? This eliminates a written conformation standard (which is great, I would love to see that disappear). Does this action protect the working lines? The problem is that these conformation dogs are not the only dogs being bred away from the working standard. Would people still want BCs as ‘pets’? As Frisbee dogs? As agility dogs? As SAR dogs? As a running partner? As a hiking/camping/kayaking/paddleboarding/etc. companion?

 

This is the point I made earlier, that there are plenty of border collies from the working registries that aren't being bred with working foremost in the breeding programs.

 

And this predates the ACK recognition of the breed. When I was looking for my first border collie in 1980, there were already quite a few being bred for obedience competition with no thought given to preserving working ability. And I saw the same differences in them then that people complain about in sporter collies today. And this was before Jane and John Q. Public even knew what border collies were, most confusing them with Shelties.

 

Has the problem gotten worse since the ACK got involved? Absolutely. But the problem existed before they railroaded the breed and wrote a conformation standard.

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I think the main problem we would run into with public breeding of working dogs would be that the mother is out of commission for a while to produce the pups. Someone working their dog can't have the mother out of commission for months on end to produce the pups to meet the demand. People would have to wait until the next planned breeding, which is where people will go get their puppies on demand somewhere else. The good news is there is a HUGE push in my area to get puppies from working homes to do dog sport, because they seem to out preform the non-working dogs. Given I live in a big farming area where they aren't near impossible to find.

 

There will always be form of pet border collies being bred, because there is a demand for it. The AKC has caused non reversible damage to the breed by bringing it into the main stream. However I feel that if the AKC were to collapse more people may turn to working breeders with working registries. In my experience having a title for their dogs is really valuable to some people and with working registries they will still be able to say my dog is registered with *instert registry name here* and still have that ego boost. Most of the people I've met with AKC dogs make a point to tell me their dog is registered with the AKC. They don't care it doesn't meet the standard to be shown they just want to say their dog is a member of a special group.

 

Also, I'm not sure about the rest of you with working border collies that you don't intend to use for anything but sports/companion/ect... However in my area the working breeders do not sell puppies, to the general public, that they feel have a lot of working potential. One of reasons I got Lily was because her breeder said she didn't have the herding abilities to go to a working home, so she was selling her to a pet home. The breeder was very curious about why I wanted a border collie, what I planned to do with the dog, and such. The breeder was thrilled when she found out I was going to be doing agility, because Lily would still be used as an athletic dog and not a couch potato that would get bored and destroy thing. These are things in all my years and my families years of dog ownership (3 labs, 6 toy poodles, 1 Rottweiler, 2 German Shepherds, 2 boxers, and 1 husky) no AKC breeder ever questioned my family on. It seemed they just saw the puppies as money machines and with that AKC registration they can raise the price. I'm not saying all non-working breeders are that way, but working breeders do seem to care where their pups end up.

 

Some people take offense to being asked about their lives just to get a dog. They want to hand over their money and walk away with a puppy. There will always be someone breeding for those people, and it's sad but true. You can't convince everyone that breeding for anything other than ability is bad. Just like you can't convince everyone not to get that puppy mill/pet store dog just because it's convenient. But, I still say we should try to educate those we can to get the working dog not the Barbie collies.

 

I wonder why those breeding for the perfect sport dog don't want credit for creating their own breed of dog? I also wonder why they stick to border collies instead of mixing breeds to get the exact dog they want to be the best at their sport and making it a breed of it's own instead of trying to 'refine' the border collie to be the best sport dog, but maybe I just don't understand enough about breeding.

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The real question is, if the goal is to protect the working breed does the downfall of the AKC achieve this? The problem for me is that even if the AKC is a contributing factor, I don’t see it as the principle cause. If I was to look at the decline of a working breed like a disease, I would call the AKC a symptom, not the cause. Treating the symptom will make you feel better but it doesn’t solve the problem. The AKC just capitalizes on a movement that is already taking place.

 

I'm sure we're reaching the point of diminishing returns, but I just don't understand your reasoning here. You seem to be saying that X cannot be the principal cause of something if that something would continue even if X was removed. But that makes no sense. The fact that X may have set in motion a chain of events that could persist even if X now were to disappear does not make X a symptom rather than a cause. X is still the cause.

 

The AKC is the remote cause, because the AKC popularized the idea of breeds, the importance of "pure" breeding, and the definition of a breed by its appearance. The AKC is also the immediate cause, because when AKC recognized the border collie over the objection of the overwhelming majority of border collie owners, it popularized the Border Collie breed while changing its definition and setting up a competing standard of excellence, sowing confusion that has damaged and continues to damage the integrity of the breed. So AKC made breed names important while changing and obfuscating their meaning. You say the AKC "just capitalizes on a movement that was already taking place." But no, it wasn't already taking place. There were no more than a handful of breeders who were breeding border collies for obedience competition before AKC recognition, and I doubt very much that there are more than that today. They were not being bred for any other purpose. Yes, there were dogs sold for pets, which is fine, and dogs who were bred without any systematic concern for working ability. But we're talking about a steady trickle, not a flood or a cataract. A trickle is not a threat to the breed, but a flood is. It's the AKC that caused and is continuing to accelerate the flood.

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Hum, Taw might have been out of commission for three weeks while pregnant.

 

One way to keep the working dog going is this.

 

Buy lamb, buy wool products, buy beef, buy leather products.

 

Produced sustainably, humanely in the USA

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If the AKC ceased to exist, would the working dog community be (willing and) able to meet the demand (working dogs, pet, sport, etc) for Border Collies?

 

Who knows? The demand would certainly decrease. I would guess that the working dog community would be able to meet the demand for border collies from people who really had good reasons for wanting a border collie (i.e., those who will use them for work or who know the breed well enough to actually have a reality-based preference for them as a companion). And it would reduce their visibility to those who don't, who would then be more likely to choose a more readily available dog, one that would be more likely to suit them better. It would also remove a competing standard of excellence, which is systematically destroying the coherence and integrity of the breed.

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But would the demand really decrease that much? Maybe 15 years ago it would have. But the akc is hardly the only dog sport venue out there and sports (and dog training for fun) seem to be ever increasing in popularity.

 

As far as reducing visibility, I think that scenario would have been much more likely before the internet and coil YouTube videos. The world - and dog world - is a far different place today than it was during the mid 90s. The akc themselves had to change to allow mixed breeds to remain a player in the sport world.

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Okay, I am part of a border collie group in my area (a just for fun go for walks etc one) and I put together what I hope is a clear and simple way of gathering all the information together and explaining it. I'd really appreciate if you guys could give me some input before I post it, because these are people who have nothing fundamentally against the idea, they just haven't ever really heard it. I want to do the best I can at convincing them that it's important and relevant to them too.

“I want you to leave here with this idea: things you cannot see are more important than things you can. There are many things that a judge can't see and can't feel, and functionally, those things are more important than the visible and palpable ones.
I'll give you an example. The [AKC] standard says ‘eyes, dark to hazel and bright, large and oval, but not prominent.' It doesn't say anything about whether or not the dog can see.”
-Dan Belkin, The Functional Saluki

 

Centuries ago, all dogs were working dogs. Shepherds, hounds, sled dogs, you name it. But nowadays, how many St. Bernards do you know that could bring someone down off a mountain? How many Yorkies that can rid your house of rats? They’ve been bred for cuteness or gentleness for so long that they can’t actually do the things they were originally created for anymore – or if they can, it’s not very well. For most breeds, their working history was centuries ago, but for border collies, it’s happening now. Twenty years ago, almost all border collies were working border collies. In 1995, the American Kennel Club recognized the border collie and gave it a “standard” – that is, they told people what the breed was based almost entirely on its looks. Today, people are already starting to forget the working roots. Border collies are known as pet dogs, sport dogs, and even show dogs. Where will working collies be a century from now, then?

When you think of your border collie, do you think “oh, it’s a black and white dog with brown eyes” or do you think “it’s a brilliant, loyal, highly observant dog with intense instincts who can go all day”? Which one sounds more like a border collie to you? If someone told me about the first, I’d likely just think of a generic dog. But the first is what the kennel clubs tell people to breed for. They couldn’t care less how it acts, as long as it looks like a border collie. And as time goes on and they’re bred only for looks and not for work, they will become less and less like the border collies that we know and love.

 

So why are border collies the way they are? Why do they have to be so smart, so observant, so tenacious and so loyal? Naturally, because of the work they were bred to do. The best way you will ever find to test if a dog has those traits is by watching the dog do work that requires those exact traits, and seeing how well they do. An agility border collie may require some of them, a pet border collie even less, and a conformation border collie none at all. But the only thing that creates the dog we know is being bred to do that work, as they have been for hundreds of years.

 

So how does this apply to us? The idea is that you don’t breed a border collie unless it has been proven to have all those traits. If it’s from a working home with working parents and has worked all its life, it’s pretty likely that it will. Very few sport or show bred border collies will have the right traits, let alone ones from backyard breeders. It’s easy to breed or to support breeders who just want cute black and white puppies, and you may not see the effects over one generation, but it will grow and grow as it continues to be done. When you buy a dog from somewhere other than a working home, you’re supporting the kind of breeding that will eventually destroy the original border collie breed. So if you love your dog and the way they are now, please don’t support that destruction.

 

Let me be clear: I have nothing against owning working border collies as pets – collies bred for work can still be great at other things. I also fully support rescuing regardless of where they are from, since you aren’t supporting the breeder in that case. I hope I’ve been clear enough in explaining things. It’s a huge topic and it’s hard to cover it in a few paragraphs. I am definitely not accusing anyone, there just isn’t enough information out there on this sort of thing. I’m hoping that maybe this will open some eyes as to how important it is not to let these beautiful dogs become the sort of barbie breed that so many wonderful other breeds have become."

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Sooo, I wonder...

 

I wonder about the AKC breeder's "Border Collies", should the AKC tank. If what AKC breeders are producing are not really Border Collies, (and I don’t think they are) and no stock person ever buys them for stock work. How could the demise of the AKC injure the chances of a working breeder selling pups - whether for working, sport or pet homes?

 

How many people who compete in agility, in AKC events will buy from working breeders if there are no more AKC events to compete in? I would think that the other agility organizations would expand to fill the gaps left by the AKC events. They would, of course not require AKC registration for the dogs to compete. And it seems, at least from reading on these boards, that there are a great many people who compete in agility with Border Collies who know that working bred dogs do the best in the sport. Up until now their only (and rather pathetic) excuse for buying or registering AKC is to be eligible to compete in AKC events. If there are no more AKC events then this excuse becomes null and void.

 

Conformation showing is liable to become a "sport" on the endangered species list if the AKC goes belly up, and there will be little "need" for conformation-bred dogs. People do conformation showing to boost their egos and their stud fees. But there seems to be a movement, gaining momentum that show dogs are bad and one should boycott their purchase and lobby for their extinction. Well, show dogs generally are in pretty poor shape genetically and in terms of dysfunctional conformational deformities. And it can mean nothing but good things for dogs in general for conformation shows to cease to exist.

 

I have read that fewer and fewer of the kids of conformation showing families want to carry on with showing. The average life-span of a show kennel is also shrinking, as are the number of litters they produce. And with show breeders on a sharp decrease, folks will have to look elsewhere for a Border Collie

 

Puppy mills will no longer be able to wave the AKC flag to create a pretense of quality in their puppies. Pet puppy buyers will no longer be able to support the fantasy of the pet-shop puppy being "high quality" because it comes with an AKC registration.

 

The public may not only have been sold a bill of goods about AKC registration being a sign of a quality dog, but the fact of all those people buying AKC Border Collie pups has done something else. It has caused the stereotype of the Border Collie as crazy, hyperactive, high-maintenance, and unpredictable to proliferate. Of course there are a lot of temperament differences within the working bred Border Collies, but as a group, what I'm hearing on the Boards is that they are much less of all those bad things than the AKC conformation or sport-bred dogs.

 

It would seem to me that the demise of the AKC would mean that working breeders could keep the gene pool of the working Border Collie robust by selling pups not needed to pet and sport homes. The mechanization of livestock operations may have reduced the number of stock dogs needed, but I can't imagine that a good stockdog will ever be obsolete. There are just too many situations in which they are the best "tool for the job." If the AKC goes away, working breeders could produce more litters than they would if they were simply replacing their own working dogs. This would give them a greater number of pups to choose from for replacement working dogs. With the Internet available to nearly everyone, they could reach more buyers. And they could sell at competitive prices to offset the costs incurred by responsible breeding practices.

 

Wouldn’t it be great if the “big dilemma” for the average puppy buyer was not, pet bred, show bred, sport bred or working bred? But rather "trial-bred" or "farm-bred"?

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Mixed breeds can now compete in AKC agility. Non-AKC Border Collies can also compete in AKC agility thru the PAL (formerly the ILP)mechaism, if the dog is sterilized. Bottom line: One does not need an AKC-papered dog to compete in AKC agility (although you have to register the dog with the AKC to get a number, just as you have to do with any other agility organization)

 

Agility people are not buying working-bred dogs for several reasons:

1) Lack of viseability/advertising

2) Difficulty finding litters from health-tested parents

3) Lack of accessability

4) Parents/ siblings/breeder don't have a track record of success in agility

5) Mistruths (working-bred dogs are <fill in the blank>).

 

One just has to look at the websites of some well-known,very high volume sport collie breeders to see what working breeders are up against. My guess is that if the AKC goes bye-bye (and it never will), those breeders would create their own registry.

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Do mixed breeds compete against pedigree dogs on an equal footing or only against each other? If the latter it rather suggests that the AKC hasn't fundamentally changed its principles at all.

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Yes, mixed breeds do compete against purebreds on an equal footing within their respective height class.

 

I believe that economic neccessity caued the AKC to change rather than a desire to be all-inclusive

 

Has that changed then? I read originally that the intention was for separate awards for mixed and pure breed.

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Yet they still require the mixed breeds to be sterilized. Inferior beings certainly can't be permitted to procreate. :rolleyes:

Snort! ;)

I guess it depends on your definition of an inferior being (breed). We all know where the ACK is coming from.

 

So I guess if I had an national/international trial-winning sheepdog (ABCA- or ISDS-registered), and for some unfathomable reason I wished to participate in AKC agility trials with it, I would have to desex it before getting an ILP registration and then competing?

 

Or I could register it with AKC because they still have an open register WRT border collies?

 

Forgive me, my brain sometimes starts going into crazy "what if" mode.

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Yes, I was faced with the full registration or sterilize/ILP dilemna. I could not in good conscience do the full registration so I forgoed AKC competition until my dog was sterilized. I had every intention of keeping the dog intact (and not doing AKC), but he was turning into an asshat, so he was sterlized and then ILP'd.

 

Honestly, I was curious about AKC, so I tried it. I'm really a USDAA girl, but I wanted a second venue that was an alternative to CPE.

 

So far, AKC is much easier than USDAA. I'm not sure that I will stick with it--I really hope that UKI comes to the area.

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So I guess if I had an national/international trial-winning sheepdog (ABCA- or ISDS-registered), and for some unfathomable reason I wished to participate in AKC agility trials with it, I would have to desex it before getting an ILP registration and then competing?

 

Or I could register it with AKC because they still have an open register WRT border collies?

 

Theoretically, you could register it based on its ABCA or ISDS registration. But the end result might well depend on its looks --as you can see from this old thread.

 

Chene, I liked what you wrote. The only thing it occurs to me to add is something about why you have to keep breeding for working ability if you want to keep working ability -- it's not enough that prior generations were bred for it. But I don't think I would add that after all -- you have enough new thoughts for readers to deal with for the moment.

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Should AKC fold, all of those AKC sport people are not just going to throw up their hands, say, "oh well, it's gone!" and vanish quietly into the night.

 

Either the other existing venues in the various sports would absorb the majority of them or . . . and I find this much more likely . . . the AKC minded folks would create a new sport organization with events that closely mirror the AKC sports as they would exist at the time that AKC went POOF into the air.

 

I don't expect that the market for Border Collies as sport partners would decrease all that much. Sport breeders would still breed for the sport market - even if the AKC "stamp" vanished from that structure. Perhaps they would unite under some other registry, or perhaps there would simply be no registry involved. It may be that more would reach out to working breeders as the pieces of the new structure were falling into place. But I will say this - Border Collies as sport partners are here to stay - AKC or no AKC. AKC is not the only game in town (even if some AKC people still think that is the case), nor the only venue where Border Collies are popular.

 

Venues other than AKC (or UKC) do not require any registry whatsoever on a dog. When I send in the paperwork for my working bred Border Collie for CPE, RallyFrEe, Dogs Can Dance, Cyber Rally-O, etc. etc. etc., I could call him an Australian Shepherd, or an English Shepherd, or an All American and that is how he would be listed by those sport venues. (I am not going to do that - of course I am going to call him a Border Collie because he is one and I know it).

 

I really would not expect that Border Collies bred for purposes other than work would vanish without the AKC in existence. There may be some decrease in non-working breeding and shifting in the concept of "registry", but even the conformation folks would probably go over to UKC or start a new sanctioning body for conformation . . .

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Agility people are not buying working-bred dogs for several reasons:

1) Lack of viseability/advertising

2) Difficulty finding litters from health-tested parents

3) Lack of accessability

4) Parents/ siblings/breeder don't have a track record of success in agility

5) Mistruths (working-bred dogs are <fill in the blank>).

 

One just has to look at the websites of some well-known,very high volume sport collie breeders to see what working breeders are up against. My guess is that if the AKC goes bye-bye (and it never will), those breeders would create their own registry.

All this is true, plus if you get your dog from a top agility home who are only breeding because they want a new dog (just like working breeders) you get a puppy who has been handled, socialized and exposed to all sorts of things since little. I was seriously tempted when I was offered the chance to go on the list of a Dutch world team members bitch who hopefully will be due in December, the bitch and dog come from working backgrounds and the bitch is a hobby herder but they are not working dogs by the standards of these boards. The owner will not let the dogs until they are at least 12 weeks.

Two things held me back, it is not really time for a puppy, and I really want to get a well bred working puppy next, I have done the rescue route both with adults and a puppy, and now I want to experience a working bred dog.

 

I am not sure agility folks would go down the road of their own registery, I have a feeling that the AKC national breed clubs who are technically the keepers of the standards would pick up the slack or people would move to UKC.

 

And count me as another agility competitor who resisted the lure of AKC agility despite it being the most easily available flavor, to be honest if my rescue border collie had been neutered I might have been tempted but I wasn't going to do that just to play their game... And yes I faced a lot of peer pressure to join the club especially as my friends really start to improve and excel in that venue, and they thought I should be along for the journey as well. (Not enough USDAA in the area, if there had been more some might not have been as tempted)

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