Packed Pen

[Bill Orr]

Although I realize there are many ways to train a working (herding) border collie, I would offer a couple of caveats:

1) It may not be the most beneficial practice to have a young dog with lots of "eye" sit and watch livestock close at hand.

2)Regardless of littermates' or related animals' behavior, there can be vast differences in personalities and effective techniques. What works for one, may not work with another.

 

I have tried both the "sit and relax" and the "packed pen" practices.

 

It might confuse a young dog when you take it to penned sheep one time and you want it to chill while you read a book and have a cup of coffee, and yet the next time you go, you want the dog to work (move, stop, control) the same livestock. How does the dog know? Look for a book and cup in your hand?

 

Putting a keen young bc in a crate in a pen full of sheep seems almost mentally cruel. A lot like tying the dog to the inside of the pen with sheep in it. The dog learns how strong the crate and rope are, but not much about working with you.

 

If I wanted a LGD or barn cat to relax in close proximity to livestock, I think the chair, book, and tea might be the method of choice. Since I want the dog to WORK WITH ME, I'm going to have a stop on the dog, some idea that it's working with and on me, and some idea that it respects my authority. Notice that Holland's (pg 154) very thorough description of close work does not come at the beginning of training.

 

A related exercise that may help is when you go into the field with the dog on a lead and walk toward the sheep, stop, turn at least 90 degrees and tell the dog "that'll do" and start walking away from the sheep until the dog yields to your redirected command. Do this several times before starting to work. The idea is to get the dog attending to you at least a little instead of attending to his overpowering desire to get to the sheep on his own terms. (passed along from Judith Kelly to me years ago with my first dog.)

 

Obviously there is no one-size-fits-all. Improvement and learning are progressive (Holland, Stephens).

[Gideon's girl]

For my dog, he works because I told him to. We're working on getting him to understand that there are times when I don't want him to work, like after I grabbed the one I need to worm. Learning to chill near the sheep is really helping. But I don't think you would start out using this on a low drive dog. And I don't think you would use it before the dog learned that there are definitely times when it is going to work the sheep.

[emilyfalk]

It might confuse a young dog when you take it to penned sheep one time and you want it to chill while you read a book and have a cup of coffee, and yet the next time you go, you want the dog to work (move, stop, control) the same livestock. How does the dog know? Look for a book and cup in your hand?"

 

Well, there are dogs who need to learn some self control around sheep. These dogs will have NO PROBLEM flipping the switch into work mode when given the opportunity to work the sheep. I would certainly not take an unkeen dog to sit and relax, but I also wouldn't have an unkeen dog . But the young dog who has already demonstrated his enthusiasm to work sheep, he needs to learn that ultimately the handler controls his access to the sheep. As far as the "confusion" remark: I teach my dogs the word "relax", and they quickly figure out that if I'm sitting, we're probably not rushing out to work within the next few seconds

 

So how does the dog know when to work sheep? Goodness, shouldn't that be their default? My dogs work when they are ALLOWED to work sheep. I hope we aren't breeding for dogs who turn off so easily that after sitting quietly around sheep for one session they need to be cheer-leaded to engage with them their next time out.

 

 

"Putting a keen young bc in a crate in a pen full of sheep seems almost mentally cruel. A lot like tying the dog to the inside of the pen with sheep in it. The dog learns how strong the crate and rope are, but not much about working with you."

 

 

If you are referring to my post, I have only done this in a few select cases and I can tell you it's not mentally cruel. If the sheep are just standing there doing nothing, the dog learns that it, too, can stand there and do nothing, and all is well and under control. The goal of the exercise is INDIRECTLY about learning to work with you: learn to calm down enough so that the dog's brain doesn't fly out his ears as soon as he sees sheep. A dog who is in a less overwhelmed mental state is going to be better able to work with you.

 

With regard to tying a dog, a dog who is "learning how strong the rope is" does not have enough self-control to watch sheep, so either needs put up or taught, not left alone until he figures how to break free to get to sheep.

 

 

"If I wanted a LGD or barn cat to relax in close proximity to livestock, I think the chair, book, and tea might be the method of choice. Since I want the dog to WORK WITH ME, I'm going to have a stop on the dog, some idea that it's working with and on me, and some idea that it respects my authority."

 

Well, yeah. I don't think anyone has suggested doing this stuff with a dog who has not AT LEAST been tried on sheep.

[juliepoudrier]

Good post, Emily.

 

Bill,

Did you even read the other posts? I specifically said:

 

For me, either of these methods is situational and depends entirely on the dog and what I'm hoping to accomplish.

[emphasis added]

 

I also noted that the "sit and relax" method was most useful for keen young dogs who "checked their brains at the gate." <--This would imply that the dog has been on stock and is too lacking in self control or too disengaged from the human part of the equation to gain anything useful by being worked in that state.

 

Not sure how either of those comments could be construed as "one size fits all" or recommendations to use the method on dogs who have never worked stock or are not keen....

 

J.