alligande Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 This weekend I spent sometime with 3 world agility team members and a coach from a couple of different European countries and we were talking about their dogs. A couple of them had chosen to go with true working bred for their newest dogs as opposed to dogs from agility lines because they felt that the agility bred dogs were missing parts of the package, mostly the ability to be calm. After all the conversations we have had in these forums about only breeding for working ability etc and the growth of sport collies, it was nice to here top level competitors thinking along the same lines. This was especially true after I spent the last 10 days with a dog who came from a breeder who has been flagged on these boards as not great for numerous reasons... she is very sweet, but maybe the most insane border collie I have lived with yet and that includes our fosters who came out the shelter with baggage. My husband used to call her "crazy shopping cart lady" now he has upgraded to her "bat shit crazy". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaliFreya Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 Before coming to these boards I wasn't even aware that many of the lines I thought were working lines were actually sport collie lines, so I'm very interested in seeing how this topic will develop among people who have experience with both, especially those who do agility and are pro working lines only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 There are people here who think they have working bred dogs because they are ISDS registered despite the fact that it's very long time since any dog in the line saw a sheep. They get very sniffy if it is suggested that ISDS registration means nothing in itself. Craziness isn't the exclusive preserve of the sport dog and an off switch isn't exclusive to the working bred dog. Poor breeding choices and upbringing exist in both worlds. IME the sort of people who make the deliberate choice of a working bred dog for sport do tend to be pretty knowledgeable and have expectations over and above the ability to run and jump fast, which is probably why they often turn out as well rounded dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 That is interesting. I have to agree with mum24dog (again). WRT poor breeding choices: when I bought my first border collie (before joining the Boards), I did purchase from what I now know is a sporter border collie breeder - and she is also one who has several red flags as described on these Boards. The reason I chose her was because she bred for temperament and she did the whole socialization program. After living with a rescue dog for 7 years that could not function in agility due to fear and anxiety issues, I wanted a solid temperament. I have not been disappointed. Would I go back to her? No, I have drunk the kool-aid and am committed to the working-bred dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 IME the sort of people who make the deliberate choice of a working bred dog for sport do tend to be pretty knowledgeable and have expectations over and above the ability to run and jump fast, which is probably why they often turn out as well rounded dogs. I think this ^^ is true, and I agree with the comments regarding the fact that many people equate registration or "herding lines" with working dogs and having the whole package, which of course is not the case. Anecdotally, I've met a number of folks who are actually buying true working bred dogs with which to do agility. Some of those folks, having gotten working bred dogs, are also trying their hands at actually working them. Whether this is a trend, or just some people who recognize that sport bred isn't working bred, who knows? J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Boots Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 I think this is great news and I hope that conversations to this effect start to show up in the agility world. Although, I would guess it will be a very slow transition and many will never see the difference. There is a local all breed herding akc person that a lot of the agility people I practice with on occasion go to. Several times I have been asked why I'm not training at her place or they compare what they are doing with their sheltie, golden, -oodle mix to what we are doing. I have tried different, always friendly, explanations but they just tend to glaze over and definitely don't seem to get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 Whether this is a trend, or just some people who recognize that sport bred isn't working bred, who knows? J. I think that there are a growing contingent of border collie handlers who are spreading the word that working lines do not equal working bred and that sport bred can be very different than working bred. If those handlers are successful, then people listen and hopefully learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaliFreya Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 There are people here who think they have working bred dogs because they are ISDS registered despite the fact that it's very long time since any dog in the line saw a sheep. They get very sniffy if it is suggested that ISDS registration means nothing in itself. Absolutely, but also one more thing I noticed - many sport breeders tend to call their dogs "working dogs", because to them working means doing something structured like training for SAR or agility, not necessarily herding - as opposed to show line breeders. And also, term "working dog" gets affiliated with dogs from working parents or grandparents (not always ISDS reg.), even though their particular offspring isn't involved in herding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 In our club there are 4 bc pups between 7 and 9 months, all belonging to successful competing members. Three are real working bred, one sport bred. Each of us got our pup with agility ambitions in mind but only the one with the sport dog seems to have had that as the sole reason. One loves hiking the fells and wanted another suitable companion, one because the family likes collies (although may not have had another quite so soon) and I wanted a nice dog that wouldn't eat my baby granddaughter or bark at my husband. The working bred dogs are living up to expectations, the sport one is the only one in a foundation class that has to be kept on a long line to stop it running off and snapping at the other dogs. A couple of others in the same litter are not 100% temperamentwise but from what I know of both parents I'm not too surprised. But I must beware of selection bias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 I don't call my pup a working dog. He is working bred and should have a good chance of showing some ability but maybe he hasn't inherited the family talent. To me a working dog serves a useful purpose. A dog that doesn't is just engaging in a hobby. The dog doesn't care about semantics though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted February 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 To clarify the two agility competitors were proud that their dogs parents worked on farms, they clearly differentiated between working bred and working lines. They had both thought about what type of dog they had wanted next, one is young he is only 20 but already very accomplished and told me that he had looked at dogs from agility lines and did not like what he saw, in a separate conversation with an older and second generation competitor she basically said the same thing. I just thought it would be something that people might be interested in after the many discussions that have been had on the subject. Edited to add: The older competitor has started to work her dogs and feels that it makes them better agility dogs as it teaches them a whole other form of self control, and they all enjoy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chanse Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) So I don't know, I might have a different opinion then a lot of people on this forum, but I personally don't see the idea of sport vs working as the big issue. The execution of the breeding is more of the problem to me, but the idea of having the two separate groups seems fine. Show breeding is the only one that I am strongly against because it ignores the health of the breed, and I am pretty sure everyone on here agrees with that, so I'll leave that issue alone. Sport breeding still requires physically and mental health. All breeds of dogs are designed by us, the humans. So saying that it is wrong to design a dog to do something else is just stupid to me. That is what we do with dogs. A dog was never meant to herd. It was meant to stalk and kill. We decided that we could use it for herding and selectively choose dogs to enhance its stalking ability. That being said, I do need to say that I am against breeding in a way that will result in behavioral or physical problems. The health of the breed should be the first consideration, but second should probably be the task that you want to accomplish. If we never breed for a task then we would never get herders, retrievers, or protectors. Here we are considering two fundamentally different task; herding vs sport (and I am going to focus on agility). Yes, a working dog can be great at agility, but agility does not require the dog to be good at herding. So lets say that someone has a BC that is incredibly good at agility, has great health, no genetic disorders, and a great temperament. Do we say, "that's nice, but it's never worked sheep so it can't be breed." I think that would be wrong. If you only want a dog for agility then why not breed a dog for agility. I will never own sheep so I could care less if my BC can herd them. Maybe this leads to a line of healthy, well tempered BC's that have no interest in sheep. Maybe we can successful reduce their stalking drive and refocus that drive and intelligence onto doing obstacles. I guess the question would then be if you still want to call this dog a BC. Maybe it will look the same, but it's behavior will be very different than a working BC. I am not saying that there aren't problems with the sporting lines. I think that the sporting breeders tend to forget that the dog needs to be breed for all of its traits and not just its speed and focus on the course. If I were to start searching for another BC right now I would definitely search for a working bred BC. I am just saying that I don't find breeding for sport to be wrong, but there is a right and wrong way to go about it. EDIT: Just wanted to add that I completely agree with mum24dog. Craziness isn't the exclusive preserve of the sport dog and an off switch isn't exclusive to the working bred dog. Poor breeding choices and upbringing exist in both worlds. Edited February 23, 2015 by Chanse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 What do the good sport dog breeders breed for? Do they pay enough attention to temperament? Or are they going more for speed and trainability? I was thinking about Hob Nob (isn't that the name). That sports breeder seems to have a really good reputation and produces good sports dogs. And gets really big bucks for her puppies. I have no idea if she pays any attention to working ability. I know the obedience people I used to know didn't like the working ability and they were trying to breed it out. The border collie is a sheep dog. It has working ability. It's been bred for 400 years for working sheep. Now it is also bred for working other sorts of stock. If someone is breeding for something else then it's not a border collie and shouldn't be called one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 What Tommy said. You have got to understand that while individual dogs may be fine, and while breeders may be breeding correctly, the breed has been defined since its inception by it's ability to work stock. It is unique in this respect and that is why people chafe so badly about conformation and sports breeders calling their dogs border collies. If it was bred to meet physical conformation standards, or to be able to do search and rescue or to do agility, it was bred to a standard outside that of border collie. There was no physical structure, no size or ear or coat type or color requirements originally. Not even temperament ones. The standard is if and how it worked. When you remove the working ability as the purpose of breeding, you are no longer breeding border collies. If, somehow, you had a, I don't know, 10lb curly haired green dog that worked like a border collie... It's a border collie. I don't think anyone would object to border collies having been the FOUNDATION Of sporter or barbie colllies, but they've co-opted the name while tossing out THE ONLY STANDARD THEY HAVE EVER HAD. Just - totally ignoring it. The only defining characteristic in the breed, that the breed has ever had or should have. That's just... insulting and ridiculous and frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 This weekend I spent sometime with 3 world agility team members and a coach from a couple of different European countries and we were talking about their dogs. A couple of them had chosen to go with true working bred for their newest dogs as opposed to dogs from agility lines because they felt that the agility bred dogs were missing parts of the package, mostly the ability to be calm. FWIW, I have noticed a decrease in "insane" Border Collies at Agility trials in my area, and more Border Collies that don't look sport bred. I have asked some where they got their Border Collies. Some are rescues, but of the ones that are not, the answer I am getting a lot is "from a farm". Still some sport bred, and some conformation bred, but more and more "from a farm". Now, "from a farm" can mean a lot of things, but regardless of the quality of the "farm" breeding, these dogs seem to be much more balanced and "sane" than the typical examples of sport bred dogs I was seeing not that long ago. I can't say I personally know anyone (outside of this board) doing Agility who has gone out of their way to get a working bred Border Collie from working parents, unless they intend to do stockwork and Agility is an additional venture, but I obviously don't know the source of every Border Collie I see out there. Now, being in that boat myself - having a working bred Border Collie whose life's endeavor will be sports, I want to shout how awesome it is from the rooftops!!! But I'm not going to. Bandit and I are just going to quietly do our thing, and I will tell anyone who asks what his breeding is. So, I guess a lot of people will see him and not know what his breeding is unless they happen to know me. Of course, all of my friends and close acquaintances, and facebook friends, and all of you, already know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crawford Dogs Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 I've probably owned the entire gamut (except show bred of course). My Motion (FHF Locomotion) was bred for flyball, hyperactive, and was literally called psychotic by a veterinary behaviorist. I don't have her any longer as she became extremely dog and human aggressive. Rose was found at a shelter. She's CCD, engages in copraphagy, almost completely white, almost completely blind from an autoimmune disease, and has extensive spinal problems. Rose is sweet but loonier than you can imagine. I enjoy her quite a bit but I can't imagine why anyone produced her litter. I think her breeder must have been nuttier than Rose is. But I can't imagine her any other way. Loki was gotten from a friend's litter and is out of working parents. He is great in just about any situation from nursing homes to dealing with small children. Overall I'm quite happy with him and enjoy having him around every day. He can do just about anything I can learn to teach him. Based on my personal experiences I'd say that sports bred are great if you don't want your dog to be part of your life (aka live outside/barn when not working). They are simply wired to be too wired and crazy for a normal home. Farm/backyard bred dogs may be great pets but aren't the outcome of thoughtful breeding. Dogs from working parents tend to be a bit more friendly to my way of life and can work as well. Of course, even within working bred there is a very wide range of temperaments and health issues depending on the line and breeder. Sports bred are typically bred for extreme drive and speed instead of the overall dog. Farm bred/backyard bred typically has no selective process except perhaps looks? Most working bred are bred for working ability, health, and temperament because all three are needed to have an overall successful dog. Bethany, Rose, and Loki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 Maybe this leads to a line of healthy, well tempered BC's that have no interest in sheep. Then by definition and history, it's not a border collie. We already asked the ACK to call their not-border-collies something else and they refused. ETA: The other thing that hasn't been mentioned (in this thread) yet, is that the herding instinct is genetically quite fragile and will begin to fade in a very few generations of breeding that doesn't focus on that as its primary goal. So by breeding for sports ability and not true working (i.e. herding) ability, you begin to change the dog away from what attracted people to it in the first place. Just doesn't make sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 If you seriously want me to call my off-the-street dog of unknown parentage by a name other than "Border Collie", I will need a super cool name to call her that reflects the respect owed to a dog who managed to survive for three months on her own on the streets, and who is beautiful, very talented, strong, and an absolute delight. "sporter" and "barbie" just don't cut it. I actually don't even use those terms to describe other people's dogs, regardless of their breeding. I am certainly not going to apply those terms to my own. I'm open to calling her something else (although she is already listed as Border Collie with all of the sport venues that we compete with and I can't really change that), but the name must be respectful and convey something that I find appealing. Suggestions are welcome. If it's a catchy, while remaining respectful, enough name, I will start going around calling her by it and we may start a trend! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 Kristine, I think the idea of a name change for a variety of dogs that are being bred from the original working border collies but are being changed in terms of temperament and drive (instinctual herding drive, that is) from the original dogs is intended to avoid the confusion that is already resulting from the differences in breeding goals. The chart that shows show bred so-called border collies' distinct genetic difference from other border collies has already been posted in other threads here. Why should they be considered the same breed with the same name when they're clearly not? The sports bred dogs must also be showing some genetic distinctions, which I suspect will only intensify. Probably not as much because I think there's more crossover breeding, but those without breeding back to working dogs have got to already be showing some differences. Anecdotal reports suggest there's a difference in temperament and it would be interesting to see where the herding ability lies, though I doubt it's going to be practical to test for it. I call my current off-the-street dog of unknown parentage a border collie, too. But I'm quick to tell people that he's not a "real" border collie (and probably didn't come from "real" border collie breeders) because he doesn't seem to possess the working instinct. That, to my mind, is what defines a border collie, not whether it physically -- or even in other ways behaviorally -- resembles the working dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 I think barbie and sporter collie as names are insulting, and I don't think they would have cropped up had the request for a name change for conformation and sports bred dogs been listened to - and/or had people working on these breedings picked a different name themselves. Left to fill the void, yes, snark and insult came into the picture and possibly do more harm than good. But I understand where that inclination came from and why they've stuck. All of that said, my dog is accidentally rather than working bred, but both her parents were working stock dogs (but 'on a farm' not trailing) and she a reactive loon. So, you know, there are some sporter and barbie collies I've met with more balanced temperaments. Lots without, but frankly I'm seeing a decrease in nutty agility bc, too. I think part of that's breeding. I think some of it's that the 'MY DOG IS SO HARD TO LIVE WITH!!!" bragging is going out of vogue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 Around here it seems like sports people go for sports breeders. To be fair, I don't know the history of most of the many BCs running agility around here. I don't really ask. The ones I do know tend to come from either a) big name sports kennels b ) local smaller scale sports kennels/breeders (most with show line influence) c) second hand through rescues or CL rehomes or d) 'from a farm'. I only know one from a strict sheepdog trial lineage. I am very picky with BCs. To me the best dog in the world is a nice border collie (after my dogs of course haha). But I meet a lot that are just weird or crazy in ways that aren't good (at least for me). Pretty much everyone I know seems pretty happy overall with their BCs regardless of origin. My favorite BCs have very consistently been rescues. No idea what that means since who knows what lines they come from. Hank was supposed to be a rescue BC. I got side tracked.... again. (Spotted dog was cute and fun!) If I ever get a BC it'll probably be a rescued adult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 Also, breed name changes are ridiculously confusing. Going through that now with the Miniature American . . . ???? whatever they heck they are calling them. I keep saying Mini-Aussie and those people are starting to get really squiffy about it. Great, now I'm insulting a whole new population because I can't keep that detail straight. I'm either saying Mini-Aussie, or Minature American . . . . uuuuuuhhhhhh? Not my breed. I'm not highly motivated to remember, although I guess I will be when I've ticked off enough people that I start to notice. So, if the sport and conformation breeding folks ever did change the name, only about half of the population would be able to keep it straight, and really, you would end up with pretty much the same amount of insulted people, although maybe just different ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 How about Recreational Border Collie? I could go with Recreational Border Collie happily enough. It sounds fun, but totally non-committal. I think it conveys the "not-real" aspect that many of you want to get across without being totally dismissive of the dog herself. The Border Collie heritage is there, but a distinction is made with the Recreational portion of the name. And "Recreational" can point to the fact that she is not a working Border Collie, but is enjoying the life of a pet/sport/companion/etc. dog. And I don't find it insulting or snarky. (Maybe that's me, though?) The abbreviation RBC could work very nicely, too. And if someone says, "what a pretty Border Collie", I can say, "yes, she's a Recreational Border Collie, you know!" with obvious pleasure. And when asked, "what is that?", I can easily explain that her parentage is unknown, so there is no way to know if her parents were actively working Border Collies. Tell enough people with a straight face that this is a "thing" and it might catch on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 Tell enough people with a straight fact that this is a "thing" and it might catch on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwb3 Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 I am seeing more "Border Jack's" emerging around the flyball people. . .yikes what a handful THAT combination must be. Nice and fast however! But yeah in agility and flyball you see all sorts of different Border Collie temperments. My Cowboy is super fast in both sports and is a maniac as he awaits our teams turn near the flyball lane. After his runs he calms down nicely. He is actually the most low key when he works sheep! Sadly that is not very often anymore, till I find another trainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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