First Time Owner

[LunaLupa]

Hello everyone!

This is my first post on the boards and I am looking forward to join in a community that is willing to offer advice or recommendations as well as just sharing in their own personal stories.

It has been exactly a month since I picked up my little baby, Luna and she has been such an angel. I couldn't be more grateful that she adjusted to the transition to a new home extremely well. She pretty much settled in by day two!

She has been a complete sweetheart to anyone she meets! She seems to really love being around people which, being a first time owner, I went into this thinking she would feel pretty shy and nervous around strangers but she has been just wonderful.

And she is as smart as a whip! I knew border collies were considered the smartest breed but man, how quickly they learn! It has been such a surprising fun experience so far and I'm so excited to see what the future will bring with her training.


And speaking of training, I was curious to know how other owners disciplined their puppies and whether there is a right and wrong way.

Anything Luna has done that was considered unacceptable behavior I have given her a firm no and removed her from the situation if needed.
She quickly came to understand what no means and will listen to me the majority of the time and stop the behavior. I always praise her tremendously when she is doing the desired behavior. And I offer any alternatives where I can.

That being said, there have been some instances where even if I repeatedly say no, she will not listen until I have to physically remove her from whatever she is doing. Just for example, chewing on the blankets. I realize I will be running into this quite a lot given she is just a puppy.

But I was curious whether it is wrong to raise your voice?
I have not flipped out tremendously or anything but the frustration tends to set in and before I know it, I find myself repeating my no's in a much louder tone.
After I do this, she realizes and then will usually end whatever behavior.

She hasn't acted scared afterwards or ran away from me or anything and she is still just as loving and cuddly towards me.

But I guess I just want to make sure this won't cause any damage I'm unaware of that might prevent her from trusting me in the long run. The last thing I want is to create anything that will have a detrimental effect on my relationship with her.

If anyone has suggestions on what has worked with their own puppy or what they believe will be a better alternative, I am all ears!

I really hope this doesn't seem like an idiotic question. In all my research the fact that border collies can be sensitive creatures came up, so I just want to be sure I am on the right path to working well with her.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read through my long post!

 

 

Sincerely,

Margaret

PS

I attached some pictures of my Luna! The pictures are from around 8 weeks. She is now 12! I'll have to get a photoshoot in soon:)

[Gloria Atwater]

 

Oh, my gosh, she's adorable! What a cutie patootie!

 

But I do think you're over-thinking things a bit. She's still just a dog, and there's nothing wrong with a big, firm NO when it's required. I have a 4 month old pup in the house now and believe me, sometimes a nice, mild No just won't cut it. It's perfectly okay to occasionally bark at a naughty puppy and I think a strong, stern tone of command is actually an important tool to have in your training box. After all, some day you might need it to correct her for something dangerous, like chewing an electric chord or chasing a cat into the street.

 

To be honest, I think there's more risk of harm in repeating corrections without reinforcing them. After all, you don't want to accidentally teach her that it's only the third or fourth "NO" that really counts. You're going to need those bigger Nos when she reaches 6 months and more.

 

Enjoy that wee cutie! And more photos are always welcome.

 

~ Gloria

 

 

But I was curious whether it is wrong to raise your voice?

I have not flipped out tremendously or anything but the frustration tends to set in and before I know it, I find myself repeating my no's in a much louder tone.

After I do this, she realizes and then will usually end whatever behavior.

 

She hasn't acted scared afterwards or ran away from me or anything and she is still just as loving and cuddly towards me.

[gcv-border]

I agree with Gloria. A pup needs to know what a correction is and how to respond, but don't overdo it. I prefer much, much more praise and/or positive reinforcement training, but sometimes a correction is needed. Start with the 'softer' and mid-range corrections, before you bring out the big guns - NOOOO! Actually, I prefer to use 'hey' or 'cut it out' or similar to interrupt their undesired behavior. And when I am really serious, the NOO appears and they better listen.

 

If she is continuing to entertain herself with a blanket (or continues any bratty behavior) after you have removed her from the situation, she may be overtired. And like a small toddler, you may want to put her in a crate for a time-out. If she is overtired, you will probably notice her taking a nap once crated.

 

Please take advantage of the Search function at the top of the page if you want to read on specific topics. Or you can just randomly start reading any and all topics that interest you. It is a top-notch education on all things border collie.

 

Good Luck with your cutie.

[ourwully]

I would recommend puppy classes when available, using this forum actively, and the book Control Unleashed The Puppy Program. I was a total beginner when I got Juno. The puppy classes really helped but I didn't get the book until quite late. The book is really well written and focuses on attention. I am really happy with Juno's progress (really my progress) but I am absolutely sure that if I had had the book from the beginning I would be much further ahead today.

 

There is a lot of debate about positive training on this forum. The majority of contributors appear to be on the positive side of things, and I include myself as one of them. Over the last year, I have given the no command or the hey command many times but never in anger. Juno is about 16 months now and looking back I wonder if I shouldn't have been more stern with her at times. The biggest question I kept asking myself over the last year was "Am I doing this wrong or is she just not mature enough to get what I am teaching." The answer to that question is still unclear to me at this point but what I do know is that she really started to round out nicely just after she turned one. As she seemed to be easier to train I seemed to be able to do things better. As many have said on this forum if you keep at it everything seems to turn out fine in the end. In the early stages, however, it can be very frustrating.

 

Good luck and by the way that is one beautiful puppy!

 

cheers

Bill

[D'Elle]

Welcome to the forum......this is a great resource for you! You have a little cutie-pie there.

 

It's not necessarily a bad thing to raise your voice, but what is most important is to reinforce your "no". I say "no" once to a dog, and if the dog doesn't stop doing what I want there is a consequence. Usually that means the dog is removed from the situation for a short time. In the case of a puppy, it would be removal to a bathroom, laundry room, or the crate for a 2 minute time-out. Done without anger or comment - not done with a punishing attitude, but acting as though it were as natural and unavoidable a consequence as gravity. The reason I only say "no" once is that you do not want the dog to learn that the command is "no.....no....NO....NO Damnit!!"

 

"Control Unleashed - The Puppy Program" is a great book. I highly recommend it.

[juliepoudrier]

What? "No, no, NO dammit!" isn't a real command? Lol!

 

I have a four month old as well. Really the only time she gets the raised voice is when she's pestering my old girl, who doesn't like it and doesn't deserve it.

 

This little girl had been more challenging than other pups I've raised, but I'm hoping that can work to my advantage when she's older and working stock.

 

Out sounds as if you've got a good start and good instincts. Try not to overthink, and enjoy the ride!

 

J.

[Cass C]

One of my trainers had to retrain me to stop saying 'no', because she said I had worn it out. The dogs only listened to no after the third or forth one. Instead she told me to make a loud disruptive noise kind of like a buzzer, which worked much better. She said a lot of dogs respond better to a noise than a a word we over use.

[Chanse]

There is definitely a right and wrong way to discipline a puppy, but sounds like you are doing fine. Generally I use a 'no' or a loud clap to stop a behavior, then redirect the attention to something else and praise. For times when my pup is being a brat, I found that timeouts worked wonders. 30 seconds to 2 minutes in the crate is all that is needed.

 

Also, this one I just read somewhere and it may sound funny, but it worked. Occasionally, when my BC was a younger puppy, he would get over playful with me (jumping and niping). I would try to give him a timeout, but just trying to grab him was 'play' for him. So I barked at him, deep and loud. Worked like a charm. He instantly sat down and just stared at me (I would describe his look as confused). I imagine a loud disruptive noise would work just as well like Cass C said.

 

Also, just wanted to mention to be careful with socializing with people. Definitely do it, but I highly recommend training your pup to be calm around people as early as possible. My pup was highly socialized with people between like 3-5months old (super adorable, he would roll onto his back at every ones feet), but then around 6 or 7 months old he became a bit of a nuisance. Basically, he gets overexcited around people and while on leash he would start to pull and at one point he would bark in frustration because he couldn't get to the person, which of course is a bit embarrassing. I'm glad that he isn't afraid of people, but right now I am doing a lot of work on giving people their space and only going to them when invited. Took about a month for me to feel confident that we could walk next to people without having him lunge. He's a good dog, it's just annoying to have to back-track to correct something that could have been taking care of by teaching him a proper greeting at a younger age. So just a warning.

[ourwully]

Basically, he gets overexcited around people and while on leash he would start to pull and at one point he would bark in frustration because he couldn't get to the person, which of course is a bit embarrassing.

I have the same thing with Juno. I keep my distance but long term I am wondering how to deal with this situation. After a short wait she settles down but initially she is so over threshold keeping a distance seems to be the only way of dealing with it. If I try any attention games she doesn't even hear me.

Bill

[Chanse]

I have the same thing with Juno. I keep my distance but long term I am wondering how to deal with this situation. After a short wait she settles down but initially she is so over threshold keeping a distance seems to be the only way of dealing with it. If I try any attention games she doesn't even hear me.

Bill

 

Yeah, this is definitely hard to work on and is probably the most frustrating. Makes walks much less enjoyable. Something that has helped me a lot is just hanging around people and not greeting them. I've added a kind of attention game to our daily routine. We started on leash with no distractions. I would just stand there and every time Archer would turn his head in my direction I would click and treat (the clicker is incredibly important here, without it I wouldn't be able to mark the behavior that I was rewarding). Once he got good at this, we started walking with no distractions. He ususally wouldn't look at me, but I would stop until he turned his head occasionally, and once his head started to turn I would click and treat. We then switched to standing or sitting in an area with people (far away and very few). I've also upped the requirement for a treat, he has to actually look at me for the click, not just in my direction. We actually do this a lot while just sitting at a bench on a college campus now (no dogs are around, makes it easier). He will occasionally get excited, but he gets nothing when this happens. If he gets over excited then we were too close and I move away and behind something until he calms down. He has gotten really good at just sitting with me at the bench and relaxing. He will watch people around us and occasionally glance back at me, which still always gets a click once his eyes meet mine, and then a high value treat. We can even do a bit of training next to a path (sits & downs) and his focus on me has improved dramatically.

 

Good luck with this, I definitely understand how frustrating it is. I've learned that you should never pull back and up on the leash if you are using a regular collar, this just puts pressure on the front of their neck and makes them want to pull more (and get more frustrated). I tried and easy walk harness, which seems to help mostly because it removes that pressure on the front of the neck (which seems to keep Archer calmer). While walking I still make sure to give people enough space so Archer stays relaxed (and he gets treats when his is). Sometimes that isn't possible and I shorten my grip on the leash and bring him next to me (trying to keep his nose at my knee). I don't keep constant pressure. I just give a correction tug to put him back in position and then immediately relax the leash (keeping constant pressure gets the dog worked up). It doesn't have to be much, the dog isn't braced for a little tug all the time, it's once you let them start pulling it becomes an issue. And if you are just keeping the leash tight then the dog never knows the difference between being at your side and pulling in front. By relaxing the leash the dog learns where to be. I hate tugging on the leash to correct my dog, but it is better for him then letting him get worked up and choking himself at the end of the leash. When Archer did get out of control, he didn't get any attention. I didn't look at him or say anything. I just turn and walk away from whatever he wants (grabbing the dog or yelling at the dog can reinforce the behavior, it is a form of attention), and only pay attention to him once we are far enough away that he stops pulling.

 

Sorry for hijacking the thread LunaLupa! Hopefully this info can help you avoid this behavior.

[chene]

This is an interesting topic to me. We use no as our warning command. It's casual, like "c'mere", and means "Stop it, please." It usually works fine and he finds something else to do. If he continues, though, he gets a "that's enough", which is often said sternly but we've never needed to raise our voices. He understands the significance of the command. It means that he needs to stop whatever he's doing NOW or he will be kicked out of the room. And he hates that. It's taken on quite a charged meaning, it's funny to see him freeze when he hears it.

[Gloria Atwater]

This is an interesting topic to me. We use no as our warning command. It's casual, like "c'mere", and means "Stop it, please." It usually works fine and he finds something else to do. If he continues, though, he gets a "that's enough", which is often said sternly but we've never needed to raise our voices. He understands the significance of the command. It means that he needs to stop whatever he's doing NOW or he will be kicked out of the room. And he hates that. It's taken on quite a charged meaning, it's funny to see him freeze when he hears it.

 

 

I think it really depends on the dog or puppy involved, too. For some dogs, a mild No works every time. But my new little gal can be a bit stubborn and if she's too engrossed in a thing, a quiet "no" just slides off. So, for big infractions she gets the big No. For little infractions, I can just say her name in a warning tone of voice, or give a stern Hey, and she looks at me and stops whatever it is.

 

I also do what Chanse mentioned - use a sharp clap of hands to break a pup's focus on something like pestering another dog or standing up to put her paws on the kitchen counter. It's not traumatizing and it gets their mind back on me.

 

Mainly, I was just trying to assure the OP that an occasional stern, loud correction won't melt a puppy, especially when it's as happy and unflappable as hers sounds like. I am a positive person with my dogs and I'm all for using treats, toys and happy voices to train a puppy along. But I also think it's important for a pup to learn to take reasonable corrections when needed. I don't believe in a world where nothing negative ever happens.

 

~ Gloria

[ourwully]

My apologies as well. Thanks for the advice Chanse. I will try a few of those things. Unfortunately I can't use the clicker outside at this point. It is just too cold.

Bill

 

Sorry for hijacking the thread LunaLupa! Hopefully this info can help you avoid this behavior.

[Chanse]

But I also think it's important for a pup to learn to take reasonable corrections when needed. I don't believe in a world where nothing negative ever happens.

 

~ Gloria

 

Nicely said, I feel the same way. Puppies definitely need the occasional correction. My biggest success with a correction was when I was socializing my pup. He went to puppy play sessions, but would tend to get overly aggressive. We used a loud clap to startle the puppies then I would take Archer over to a corner for a timeout until he calmed down. We had to do this a lot in the beginning, but he learned that staying calm and playing nice was way more fun then sitting in a corner.

 

Corrections are incredibly useful if used right. It's more important what you do after the correction. In my case, Archer got to play with the puppies, a huge reward for settling down. This is similar to training the command 'leave it'. When your dog leaves the item on the floor they get a reward for doing so. If they didn't get a reward then they would have no reason to not just pick the item up. Getting a treat off the ground and then being yelled at is probably better then getting no treat at all. The same goes for a correction.

 

To summarize, yes, corrections are good, but they need to be treated just like any other command. When you say the correction then you are expecting a certain response. Once you get that response then you need to reward or else you really can't expect to get that response again.

[LunaLupa]

Thank you everyone for all the feedback!

 

I guess I am just over thinking things quite a bit.

I just want to be sure I am taking all the right steps towards a happy obedient dog.

 

She really hasn't gotten herself into any trouble yet. She's surprised me in that way. For a puppy, she seems to be on the more laid back side. I do keep thinking this is just the calm before the storm before she really decides to get crazy on me. So in any case, all these suggestions will prove very useful.

 

 

I would recommend puppy classes when available, using this forum actively, and the book Control Unleashed The Puppy Program. I was a total beginner when I got Juno. The puppy classes really helped but I didn't get the book until quite late. The book is really well written and focuses on attention. I am really happy with Juno's progress (really my progress) but I am absolutely sure that if I had had the book from the beginning I would be much further ahead today.

 

I will be sure to check out that book as well! I began clicker training, with lots of positive reinforcement, pretty much from day one and it appears to be working well with her. This is my first time with clicker training and I am trying to be as careful and accurate as I possibly can be. I haven't really started outside with the clicker training yet because it's been so damn cold but I'm hoping once I start it will help better her focus outside surrounded by distractions.

 

 

I think it really depends on the dog or puppy involved, too. For some dogs, a mild No works every time. But my new little gal can be a bit stubborn and if she's too engrossed in a thing, a quiet "no" just slides off. So, for big infractions she gets the big No. For little infractions, I can just say her name in a warning tone of voice, or give a stern Hey, and she looks at me and stops whatever it is.

I also do what Chanse mentioned - use a sharp clap of hands to break a pup's focus on something like pestering another dog or standing up to put her paws on the kitchen counter. It's not traumatizing and it gets their mind back on me.

 

This is pretty much where I am at now with her and occasionally I'll throw in a clap or a hey for when she's about to get into something I absolutely don't want her near - the trash can or our christmas tree (I still haven't gotten around to taking it down ) but that usually works every time.

 

 

Sorry for hijacking the thread LunaLupa! Hopefully this info can help you avoid this behavior.

 

Chanse, the issue on leash pulling was actually the next question I had in mind so thank you for that advice! I was curious to know if anyone heard of gentle leaders and whether or not they work well? Also if you need to wait till a certain age to put that type of leash on them? I believe the easy walk harness is made by the same company. Perhaps that would be a better option. I live in a beach town and it's incredibly crowded in the summer and I want to really work on Luna being able to remain calm around people. Ideally it would be great if I can get her to the point where she will be able to relax while people pass by, like you mentioned with your Archer.

 

 

Again, thank you so much everyone for all the useful information! It is very helpful!

[Chanse]

Chanse, the issue on leash pulling was actually the next question I had in mind so thank you for that advice! I was curious to know if anyone heard of gentle leaders and whether or not they work well? Also if you need to wait till a certain age to put that type of leash on them? I believe the easy walk harness is made by the same company. Perhaps that would be a better option. I live in a beach town and it's incredibly crowded in the summer and I want to really work on Luna being able to remain calm around people. Ideally it would be great if I can get her to the point where she will be able to relax while people pass by, like you mentioned with your Archer.

 

First, I just want to mention that one of the training ideas I was talking about was just basically shaping a recall with check-ins (

). I really wish I knew about this earlier and started on day one. Just rewarding check-ins has significantly improved our walks. This hasn't really addressed all the issues we have with leash manners, but it has made getting Archer's attention way easier and after working on this for two weeks I highly recommend any new dog owner to practice this daily (of course, I'm in the south, I can still use a clicker easily in the winter

 

Second, leash tools. I am actually working on deciding what to use right now (read some other forums, but it seems that it really just depends on your dog and how you handle the leash). I have the easy-walk, but its not great. I kinda feel like it was made for wider chested dogs. I was told that I should put a thread stopper on the martingale part of the collar so it doesn't move as far to make it work a bit better. But overall, Archer just hasn't had many issues with strong pulling, he just likes to go out to the end of the leash and keep tension on it. The easy-walk definitely doesn't stop him from doing this. Also, adjustments on the easy walk are a pain, there are 4 sections that need to be adjusted. The gentle leader seems like a good choice, so I might try that eventually, the only downside to that one is that you need to train your dog to get used to wearing it. I am actually going to be trying out a slip lead first though. Supposed to be great tool for teaching heeling and I like the simplicity of it.

 

Lastly, if you just take care of it now, you probably won't run into the issue. I should have been more strict with Archer as a puppy and I am paying for it now. Basically, as a puppy he learned that everyone wants to stop and pet him (because everyone does, BC puppies are adorable!). So he would get super excited, crawl to the ground, maybe roll over. Then the people would all be very high energy, making him more excited. So when I look back at that, it is obvious why he is so excited when people walk by. So just be more strict with the people meeting your puppy. If you have to, just ask them to ignore the puppy when they approach and wait for your puppy to settle down. Also, don't let your puppy pull towards them and definitely don't let the person praise the puppy while pulling. Being a super excited puppy is adorable, but down the line it is problematic. Of course, I am not saying to avoid people and to not socialize your dog. Let you puppy meet as many people as possible, but just make sure every meeting is done right.

[GentleLake]

I was curious to know if anyone heard of gentle leaders and whether or not they work well?

 

You might want to read this before making your decision about a head halter: http://www.suzanneclothier.com/the-articles/problem-head-halters

[LunaLupa]

You might want to read this before making your decision about a head halter: http://www.suzanneclothier.com/the-articles/problem-head-halters

 

Gentlelake thank you for sharing the article!

 

I was wondering about all the possible options and I had heard about the gentle leader and was curious if it worked well. If I do end up needing a harness, it probably will be something more like the easy walk then.

 

 

Chanse, thank you for all the advice!

I did start in with the recall and check in training and it seems to me like it is working.

So we'll continue it and see how it goes!

 

 

I'll most likely have more questions and definitely more pictures to show in future posts! Until then, thank you all so very much:)

[Chanse]

Also, just another comment on front clip harnesses. I am honestly not a fan of the easy walk by premier. Right now the adjustments are a pain and at least one of the 4 sections gets loose after every walk. This could be stopped if I did a bit of stitching, but I've been lazy so far. I only use it when I know I won't be able to reinforce loose leash walking skills (like when I am walking with another person).

 

Here's a review of some other front clip options: http://seespotshine.blogspot.com/2011/01/front-clip-harnesses-updated-reviews.html

 

But just as a warning, these front clip harnesses may not be problem free. If you use them exclusively while walking or running then they are believed to effect a dogs gait (http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/16_7/features/the-no-pull-debate_20782-1.html). I believe that the harness can be a useful training tool, but I wouldn't recommend to use it as a lifelong solution.

 

Good luck with the training!