Current trend for canine conditioning, philosophical questions!

[alligande]

I was not sure where this topic belongs as it doesn't fit neatly into the other boards, so I opted for general.

Recently I have started doing conditioning exercises to help build strength in Rievaulxs hind end to help with with mild hip displaysia on one side, and so being the closet geek I am I have been trolling the Internet looking for the best ways to perform them, and so have watched a number of videos of dogs balancing on things.

I belong to a Facebook group about dog conditioning and most of the dogs do not have a medical reason to be doing these type of exercises, and although some of the dogs seem to be having fun, many seem uncomfortable, and I see a lot of food being held directly in front of the nose to keep the dog in position. I would guess most of the people involved are "positive" trainers who don't use luring in their training, and don't like to cause stress to their dogs, yet in the name of fitness they seem to be doing just that.

And to me that seems really weird, what are other people's thoughts.

[mum24dog]

Seems weird to me that anyone would feel the need if there is nothing wrong with their dog.

 

But then my dogs' normal life has always been sufficient to keep them fit with only a couple of minor injuries over 17 years.

 

As for luring, I guess I would fall into the category you describe. I don't like using luring in training but will use it if necessary occasionally.

 

A couple of examples -

 

Kye doesn't like to be messed around with so when he had a bit of a limp and we wanted to do some work with him it was more a case of behaviour modification than training as such and I am comfortable with using food for that purpose in whatever way is appropriate, even if it means luring.

 

I need to teach Risk to stand in a position that will enable him to be measured. I have tried luring and it doesn't work very well. I haven't done enough target work with him so need to step that up so I can ditch the lure.

[Tess's Girl]

I also belong to a group on Facebook, more for my curiosity than to implement any of the exercises (I also belong to a raw group, and and "positive only" group and I don't do either of those things).

 

I have thought the same thing as you. Is this really necessary? Tess is in great shape just by being a dog. She gets to run around off leash, we go on walks, we go on hikes. Does she have muscles that are so defined she looks like a doggie body builder? No. And many times that's what I see in that group.

 

I think those kinds of exercises have their place for medical reasons, like you mentioned, and maybe if the dog needs help in a certain area to do a specific sport. If you and your dog enjoy them, then I don't see why not but I just don't see why they are necessary.

 

But then again, I read all the time about people that work years and years to get one particular dog even able to approach an agility ring, or continue to try and train one on stockwork when it has no real drive or desire. Many times it's for the humans desire, and not that dog's at all. I'm very much a "if the dog doesn't enjoy it, why bother?" type, so that's part of I don't see why you would bother if your dog didn't have a need for conditioning.

[Blackdawgs]

I've been wondering about this, too.

 

i have rehabbed dogs for back and rear end problems under a rehab vet's supervision and do own a peanut and bosu. The idea is to provide an unstable surface which forces the dog to use its abs to balance, so even an air mattress would suffice. The rehab vet says that she generally does not recommend balls and peanuts and such to the average owner because it is really easy for a dog to get hurt.

 

I've seen many routines online using balance disks, peanuts, and what not (all with supposidly healthy dogs) and have been wondering if it is really neccasary to have a $3000 doggie gym. Now there is a plethora of online classes and I wonder if all of these balls, peanuts, and pods ($$$$) are really neccasary and perhaps if people are doing more harm than good. I haven't seen any studies that this benefits healthy dogs in anyway, although it certainly benefits the manufacturers of this equipment. Lately, there have been several youtube videos of treadmill routines (way beyond simple trotting on a treadmill) and well, these seem like a geat way to get a dog hurt.

 

I think that the best way to condition a healthy dog is to allow it to really run through the woods and fields on naturally uneven hilly footing, but unfortunately many of us do not have access to areas where dogs can run and run and run.

[mum24dog]

It's just symptomatic of the propaganda powers of the internet where we are bombarded by a never ending barrage of new ways supposedly to show how much we care about our dogs, most without any sound reasoning at all.

 

Dogs are mostly pretty well designed to do perfectly well with a moderate amount of exercise and adequate diet without all the extras pushed at us. Most dogs do not need a shed load of supplements, energy bars if they run for a few minutes, constant attention from a physio or chiropractor, x rays to check for physical soundness, special regimes of any kind, or whatever the latest fad may be. (The same applies to our children.)

 

Just because something exists doesn't mean it is necessary, whatever someone on the net may say. I'm glad that information about some of these things is available for when it is appropriate, much less so when they are promoted to make people who don't follow the herd feel guilty.

[Maralynn]

I do some conditioning exercises. Mostly stretching and balance. I'm not trying to turn them into body builders but I am trying to get some lesser used muscles worked. I'm also trying to get the dogs to be thoughtful and deliberate with using their feet and bodies. So I guess it's more body awareness. Is it really necessary? I don't know. But my dogs enjoy the exercises I do with them and they are great foundation for some of the skills needed for the FSA standards that we use for SAR work.

[mum24dog]

If muscles are little used that rather suggests to me that they aren't particularly important in the grand scheme of things.

 

I agree with Blackdawg's view of good "conditioning" in that you can't improve on letting the dog do what it is designed to do.

[Maralynn]

But when you ask a dog to do things that they don't normally do then I think you need to think beyond normal activities. For instance, my dogs climb ladders and walk over unsteady surfaces as part of their evals. So training in how to use their feet on unsteady surfaces and building muscles that offer more support to their back will build confidence and help prevent injury when doing something that they wouldn't naturally do on their own. I am fortunate to live in an area where they can get plenty of off leash romps for most of the year and I do take advatage of that for the bulk of their exercise. But winter is tough and I do more inside exercises with them then.

[mum24dog]

Climbing ladders is a whole different game from what a lot of people are expecting their dogs to do though.

 

A lot of people just overcomplicate life in general.

[Root Beer]

 

I was not sure where this topic belongs as it doesn't fit neatly into the other boards, so I opted for general.

 

Recently I have started doing conditioning exercises to help build strength in Rievaulxs hind end to help with with mild hip displaysia on one side, and so being the closet geek I am I have been trolling the Internet looking for the best ways to perform them, and so have watched a number of videos of dogs balancing on things.

 

I belong to a Facebook group about dog conditioning and most of the dogs do not have a medical reason to be doing these type of exercises, and although some of the dogs seem to be having fun, many seem uncomfortable, and I see a lot of food being held directly in front of the nose to keep the dog in position. I would guess most of the people involved are "positive" trainers who don't use luring in their training, and don't like to cause stress to their dogs, yet in the name of fitness they seem to be doing just that.

 

And to me that seems really weird, what are other people's thoughts.

I might belong to the same group, but I really don't have much time to follow it, so I rarely read there. I generally dive-bomb post when I have a question, as I asked about rung spacing for a ladder for hind-end awareness, and for suggestions for very basic core strength exercises.

 

As to why people teach these things when there is no medical reason, it might just be for basic fitness purposes. I did follow the advice given on the group and have been having Dean do sit-down-sit-stand-down-stand several times a day about three days a week as a super basic core-strength exercise. And often I will have Tessa and Bandit do it right along with him. Why should the dog with the disability be the only one to do conditioning work? Won't the two healthy dogs also benefit from a little conditioning? Granted, I am doing something very low-key that I know is perfectly safe for all three dogs, but it seems it is something they can all enjoy together, and maybe derive some physical benefit from. And, no, I would not have all three dogs do something that is highly specialized to a certain medical issue, but basic fitness can be good for all.

 

And that might help explain the food use. When I use the sit-down, etc. with Dean, and the others, for fitness purposes, I do hold food right on their noses, if need be, and I lure very deliberately - in a way I typically would not in training. The reason for this is that I am not training a cued behavior, I am using the food to show my dog where I want him to be. For this exercise I want Dean to sit as tall and straight as he can, and I want him not to rock back on his hip, so I use the food to get the body position that is desired. (Of course, he still has the choice not to move a certain way if it hurts - I never push him if he appears uncomfortable, which he never does with that exercise). Dean can certainly sit-down, etc. on verbal cue alone with no lures. But that's not what we are doing when we are conditioning. So, I use the food in a very different way from how I use it in training.

 

I have worked a bit with a canine physical therapist, and in those sessions I have never used food the same way that I use it in training. The food is used to position the dog, to anchor the dog, to show the dog which way to go. So, instead of shaping Dean to put his feet up on something, put it on cue, and transfer that behavior to an exercise ball, we used food to lure him up on the exercise ball and then used the food to lead him through the exercises on it. It's just different from training.

 

As far as the stress thing goes, I don't know. If the dog in a video looks stressed, might be something to ask the poster of the video about. "What benefit might this particular activity provide for a healthy dog?" might be a good question to ask of those posters, as well. There might be some motivation behind it that is not apparent . . . .

[Blackdawgs]

I don't question the need for basic core work. All athletes need it. I do question the need for thousands of dollars of balls, peanuts, pods, discs, and now treadmills.

 

Several years ago, Dr Chris Zink released a video "Conditioning the Canine Athlete", As i recall, the only special "equipment" was a hill and maybe a ball.

[CptJack]

I think a lot of people on that group are into 'conditioning' as a sport in and of itself - or are just kind of neurotically obsessive, if I'm honest about it (not everyone, and I know it's mean but it's sometimes the impression I get).

 

Personally, I do a little body awareness work, a little bit of balance stuff, some weird surfaces so textures don't freak them out and otherwise, um. My fitness routine is pretty much play and free running. I do take pictures of them standing on top of things but honestly that's just... fun for me.

[Maralynn]

I don't question the need for basic core work. All athletes need it. I do question the need for thousands of dollars of balls, peanuts, pods, discs, and now treadmills.

 

Several years ago, Dr Chris Zink released a video "Conditioning the Canine Athlete", As i recall, the only special "equipment" was a hill and maybe a ball.

I agree with you on that. Groups tend to fuel the overboard/bandwagon effect. On one hand I think it's good that more people are aware but OTOH the majority of helpful exercises can be done without buying specialized equipment. I have a couple of balance cushions but other than that I use things like steps, my body, cardboard boxes and stuff found in the great outdoors to work on body awareness and basic conditioning.

[alligande]

It seems like we are all really on the same page about this and those of us on Facebook I am sure we on the same page.

If you are going to ask your dog to perform beyond being a normal pet, working sheep dog /agility / SAR etc then the dog needs to be fit enough to be able to perform that task but as others have said do you really need to invest thousands in fitness equipment, including specialized dog treadmills.

I guess I have been watching this devolop over the last few years but because of Rievaulxs hip I started to really pay attention, a number of the big name online trainers all have conditioning classes, it just seems to be the latest thing that people are basically being shamed into doing especially in agility circles, personally I would rather spend the time out walking in the country than balancing my dog on a ball. I am happy to do the exercises the vet/physio recommended and devolp a program that is going to keep my partner active and comfortable, two of the exercises that seem to make him work the hardest and really use his rear legs, is slow walking up the stairs and slow walking up steep hills, no equipment required!

 

I have worked a bit with a canine physical therapist, and in those sessions I have never used food the same way that I use it in training. The food is used to position the dog, to anchor the dog, to show the dog which way to go. So, instead of shaping Dean to put his feet up on something, put it on cue, and transfer that behavior to an exercise ball, we used food to lure him up on the exercise ball and then used the food to lead him through the exercises on it. It's just different from training.

 

As far as the stress thing goes, I don't know. If the dog in a video looks stressed, might be something to ask the poster of the video about. "What benefit might this particular activity provide for a healthy dog?" might be a good question to ask of those posters, as well. There might be some motivation behind it that is not apparent . . . .

The food with the physio makes sense, what I am questioning is what looks like day to day exercises, I know when you train your dogs you want them to enjoy the experiences, I have seen your videos, your dogs always look like they are having fun, it's certainly how I want Rievaulx to look when we are doing agility or training a trick so I have been trying to make rehab fun in the same way, something he thinks is fun, but when I see dogs that seem to belong to sports competitors looking slightly uncomfortable balanced on a ball for the sake of fitness it seems to contradict how they would otherwise train.

 

And as a side note I rarely ever engage on Facebook groups I find somethings interesting but I am not keen on very public debates.

[Jumpin Boots]

I think a lot of people on that group are into 'conditioning' as a sport in and of itself

It would be mildly interesting to know the ratio of theses people who seem to do an excessive about of these exercises with their dogs to how many of them are strict about their own gym workouts. I have often thought that many people who frequent the gym for themselves with strict routines (leg day, arm day), can't visit a hotel on vacation without a gym have a somewhat unhealthy obsession with fitness.

 

While I have done some core strengthening exercises with my guys, I too find that normal activities cover what they seem to need. Although we are fortunate that we have a farm to run on, live near the mountains with plenty of mountains to hike and have a creek on the property for doggy water aerobics. I might have a different opinion if I lived elsewhere or had to work harder to get my dogs out and about.

[mum24dog]

 

 

 

To my mind any pet dog (not including the extremes) should be fit enough to engage in an activity like agility without any special "conditioning". Start gradually and build up performance by actually doing it. Of course many aren't and " conditioning" is not the answer.

 

I wonder whether the trend for referring to these dogs as "athletes" encourages some less than fit handlers into imagining that they themselves are athletes by proxy.

 

I don't personally like pretence or exaggeration.

[CptJack]

I think that there are cases where some dogs starting something like agility benefit from a little mild conditioning but all I really mean by that is 'a gradual increase in their activity levels'. I see some dogs in my foundations/beginner classes who are overweight, and pretty visibly and obviously out of shape. The activity itself, at our facility, ramps up pretty hard after those clases, and I think it would be a kindness to the dogs to get them more exercise along the way.

But... more walks and the ability to run, not doggie aerobics.

[mum24dog]

I'm having to do the tactful "Your dog is overweight" more and more often lately. I need to have a quick general chat so individuals don't feel picked on and to do a handout for them.

 

The difficulty is when dogs are overweight but are still quite fast and their owners are the hardest to persuade as they only see the here and now and not years down the line.

[rushdoggie]

I have a dog with a chronic psoas problem, and after the last rehab it was suggested to me that I work with one of the more "famous" conditioning people as I live close to her.

 

I too was kind of skeptical, but I was tired of seeing my dog limp. He would come up lame sometimes, not others, and not doing anything particularly hard. It should be noted he damaged it running after a squirrel in my backyard, not doing sports.

 

So I went. She suggested I work my young Papillon for part of our session as my injured dog could not work the whole time. Sure, why not. He is a solid mass of muscle, he gets off lead runs, walks, romps with his friends. I didn't think he would benefit, but why not?

 

My dogs had fun. Even when it was hard, they seemed to like it. It was a game, they got cookies, they were not stressed. She showed me the specifics about what kind of movement my hurt dog avoided and how those muscles were weak. She showed me where my Papillon was not as strong as I thought.

 

My Papillon suddenly started doing better with his sits and heeling on obedience. Having a stronger core made those things easier. My Border Collie limps less. He still tweaks it now and then, but generally he does better.

 

Eventually, I got to be good friends with the canine conditioning person. I learned she got into this when her agility dog got hurt, and she realized she was asking him to do things that he had a hard time doing. She watched other dogs who also struggled so she went to talk to ortho vets, dog PTs and the like and learned there are a number of athletic dogs who have the same injuries over and over. She has spent a lot of her own money learning from the best and designing activities that help. She really loves helping people and the dogs...shes a wonderful person.

 

Would I do these with a dog who didn't do any kind of sport and had fabulous structure? Probably not. But I think sport dogs, SAR dogs, maybe some working dogs and those with structural issues do benefit and to a degree they can't hurt. If your dog is not having fun and not wanting to do it, then sure its an issue. But mine love it. On really crappy, yukky weather days its a great way to get your dog some exercise. Mine walk backwards, do calvallettis, do balance activities on the inflatable and do some sidestepping and stretching stuff.

 

YMMV.

[mum24dog]

And there is an even larger number of dogs that are not injury prone and perform perfectly well. Call me cynical, but is in the financial interests of people providing this sort of thing to persuade the worried well that they need their help.

[kingfisher7151]

I'm part of that same group. I absolutely don't understand why some people feel the need to buy thousands of dollars worth of doggie fitness stuff.

 

That said, I have really enjoyed doing some of the activities with Keeper. That's because they are fun! Not because we're body builders. I can see lots of positives (or at least not negatives) of doing some of the exercises for many dogs, as long as they're not blown out of proportion.

 

Keeper likely will never be an agility dog, so there's no need for such extreme fitness. But I love trick training and all sorts of other useless things that could definitely benefit from the conditioning exercises. I have found some to be particularly nice for my 10 month old dog who can't do any high impact activities yet. Put your front feet on "pods" (tuna cans, I'm not buying the expensive stuff!!) and do sit-stands? Why not! Sit pretty for balance work? That's fun! Cavalettis can be a nice little game of "don't touch the sticks", not for some crazy fitness exercise. Pretty much all the exercises I've done are basically just body awareness that may happen to involve fitness, but they keep his brain going. I don't see anything wrong with that. As long as the exercises are always fun, not stressful.

 

I could definitely see a benefit to having trained some of these behaviors ahead of time in case your dog gets injured or gets older and needs an alternative source of fitness.

 

BUT. So many people go absolutely overboard. There's no need to buy the expensive stuff, especially if you can just get creative. There are so many online classes and such offered, and people are drooling over it. It seems to be a complete fad. Some person said "I'm the better dog owner because my dog has more core strength" and people went haywire. I've kind of stayed out of the sports world in my area after finding that some people (not all) can be absolutely insane about all things dog.

[rushdoggie]

And there is an even larger number of dogs that are not injury prone and perform perfectly well. Call me cynical, but is in the financial interests of people providing this sort of thing to persuade the worried well that they need their help.

 

Honestly, I felt kind of the same way until

 

1. I met the trainer who is so warm and giving, who is not making tons of money and who it is clear has the underlying motivation of helping people and dogs

 

2. I saw some differences in my dogs performance

 

Now I am more open to it.

[Maralynn]

I kind of have to think back to when clicker training used to be the fad. Why should people change to that when compulsion was working? I mean sure, a few dogs might benefit from it but most were doing fine. How things change in 25 years. I still don't think there is any reason to go spend a ton of money on a gym for you dog but I like the results I'm seeing with my youngster from doing some basic, simple exercises.

[alligande]

The simple exercises, e.g down/stand, pivots, cavalettis etc make sense to me. Watching my own dog use his weaker leg and realizing that he has been using his strength to cheat and bounce through things has been interesting. It is sort of like us doing yoga or Pilates no real equipment needed but you can see great changes.

 

I think Maralynn has a great point, what made me post has been the growth of the fitpaws craze, Susan Garrett getting on the bandwagon and that Facebook group with dogs been lured over various balls and balance items, not looking as if they were not having a whole lot of fun, now some of the dogs do like they are having fun and I am sure it's because their owners have taken the time to make the exercises a fun game, but others have invested thousands in equipment but dont seem to make it fun.

 

I am not even sure I can fully articulate what makes me uncomfortable about what I am seeing, because it is not really the concept of exercises. I think maybe it is just the rapid growth of its popularity and maybe the thought that people are using the exercises inlew of real outdoor fun.

[Blackdawgs]

Both of my Border Collies have naturally floppy cores. Both have benefited from simple core-strengthening exercises.

 

Conditioning is not new. Chris Zink, DVM and Laurie McCauley, DVM released their "Building the Canine Athelete" dvd in 2007. The novelty is not the conditioning/strengthening, but the TOYS.

 

This fad is no different than the current "International Handling" fad in the US. Now we have a bunch of people rushing off to seminars and taking online courses who would be better served by concentrating on fundamentals.

 

Unfortunatley, I am unable to locate a sheep emoticon