Getting through the low points

[GentleLake]

In this case she got aroused at the sound of the cat behind the door (tail slowly raised and body position slowly shifted forward). I saw this and assumed a gently tone and said "Hey buddy, come here!" I kneeled down in a position I know gets her to come over to me. She looked at me and turned back and charged the door. That's about as defiant as a dog can be.

 

There's another way of looking at this that doesn't involve "defiance."

 

It could be that she was over threshold, has not yet learned sufficient impulse control and doesn't yet have a reliable recall, all of which point to a need for more work on your part -- i.e. working on impulse control and strengthening her response to your cues.

 

What I see hear is that you tried to coax her to come to you rather than used a well proofed cue in a situation where she was already highly aroused. There's a difference between this and having a solid, reliable recall, and in particular an emergence recall cue as has been suggested in previous posts.

 

I'm not there and can't see what's going on, but is it possible that you have expectations of her obeying you when you haven't really proofed your cues yet? IOW, that you haven't completely taught her that you expect her to respond each and every time? Border collies are incredibly talented in learning things we don't intend to teach them, and one of those things can be that we don't always mean what we say. If you don't follow through with cues 100% of the time and let her get away with things sometimes, or even just let her responses be slow or sloppy sometimes, she may have learned that you really don't expect her to respond every time, even though you think you have that expectation. Does that make sense?

 

I'd also caution against placing values on her behaviors. Things like "defiance." You can't really know what's going on in her head. You can't know whether she intended to be defiant or simply wasn't controlling her impulses. But by choosing to interpret her behavior as defiant, you set up an adversarial relationship between the two of you in your mind, and this colors your relationship with her and your feelings about her. If you can look at it instead in more neutral terms of "she's exhibiting this or that behavior, what do I need to do to change those behaviors," I think you'll experience less exasperation with her and probably be happier with the results in the long run.

 

Now, if I can just remember to practice what I preach with my own "Pig Fly" dog . . .

 

Best wishes. It's not always easy.

 

ETA: I Hadn't read Alligande's post before replying. It looks like we're saying the same thing about value judgements like "defiance."

[GentleLake]

The one thing that gets to me about clicker training calm behavior is...do you need to carry treats and a clicker around every waking moment? In the above instance, it was first thing in the morning and I was just waking up and getting coffee going. The clicker was up in the cabinet with the other dog stuff. What do you all do in this case?

 

You can also use a mouth click, sometimes referred to as a tongue click. You've always got that available to you. The treat doesn't need to be delivered instantaneously. So once you've clicked, you can continue to verbally praise while you're running to grab something, anything, to use as a treat.

 

OTOH, during training it's not a bad idea to have treats strategically located in lots of places around the house so they're readily available at a moment's notice for situations just like this. I've got treat jars in the living room, the kitchen, the bedroom and by the back door so I don't have to go far at all to grab one when I need it.

[notailabigail]

You can mark behaviour with any word or sound that you like - a clap, 'yes', etc. - as long as the sound is consistent and as long as you pair it with reinforcement. The reason a clicker works so well is that it's very distinct consistent, unlike our words and tones. So if you do use a verbal marker, make sure it sounds the same every time (no emotion behind it!).

 

As far as having treats everywhere (definitely not a bad idea) just keep in mind that there are other reinforcers that you could use if you're caught without treats, like you were that morning. If I were in that situation, I would probably mark her attention on me with a 'yes' and then maybe run through the house, play with her, tug on a toy - *something* that she really loves. Obviously feeding her a bit of liver is easier but work with what you have in any given moment!

[Shetlander]

The click to calm and control unleashed philosophy makes so much sense to me. I've been working on reinforcing her looking at me, especially when I say "watch." I only do this when I'm sure she'll look my way. The one thing that gets to me about clicker training calm behavior is...do you need to carry treats and a clicker around every waking moment? In the above instance, it was first thing in the morning and I was just waking up and getting coffee going. The clicker was up in the cabinet with the other dog stuff. What do you all do in this case?

I agree with the posts that have talked about your dog being over threshold rather than defiant when she ignored your gentle command. You want to work up to her being able to obey even in the face of strong provocation. In the situation with the cat, you also need to figure out how to keep the cat from upping the ante too fast or attacking the dog.

 

With Watch Me, you also need to work up to using the command when there are greater temptations or closer triggers. I try to increase the criteria when my dog is at least 85% successful at a level. So if the dog is doing well (85% of the time able to look at me) at 20 feet away from the trigger, then I would move a couple feet closer and then moving closer still when we are 85% successful at that distance. Otherwise it is too easy to either creep along with our progress or else move too fast, overfacing the dog, resulting in failure and possibly even setting our progress back.

 

I will use the word Yes as a marker when I dont have a clicker with me or when I find a clicker difficult to juggle, such as on walks with a dog. When training a specific behavior, I have the treats on me and when I am addressing some ongoing situation such as polite behavior (rather than pandemonium) at the front door, I will stash treats strategically so I can reward on the spot. Otherwise, if I dont have treats nearby, I will mark the behavior with a Yes! Then very enthusiastically say, Lets go get a cookie! Such a good job! so the dog has a connection between obeying and the reward. Once the behavior is well trained, I often just praise the dog . But periodically I will still give treats.

 

At any rate when I am actively training a dog, which it sounds like you are doing, I want to always be ready to mark and reward. That is why I like to use a verbal marker as well as a clicker. In addition to treats, I also use toys and play as rewards for behavior. And of course, praise.

[deadlywarbler]

 

I agree with the posts that have talked about your dog being over threshold rather than defiant when she ignored your gentle command. You want to work up to her being able to obey even in the face of strong provocation. In the situation with the cat, you also need to figure out how to keep the cat from upping the ante too fast or attacking the dog.

 

With Watch Me, you also need to work up to using the command when there are greater temptations or closer triggers. I try to increase the criteria when my dog is at least 85% successful at a level. So if the dog is doing well (85% of the time able to look at me) at 20 feet away from the trigger, then I would move a couple feet closer and then moving closer still when we are 85% successful at that distance. Otherwise it is too easy to either creep along with our progress or else move too fast, overfacing the dog, resulting in failure and possibly even setting our progress back.

 

I will use the word Yes as a marker when I dont have a clicker with me or when I find a clicker difficult to juggle, such as on walks with a dog. When training a specific behavior, I have the treats on me and when I am addressing some ongoing situation such as polite behavior (rather than pandemonium) at the front door, I will stash treats strategically so I can reward on the spot. Otherwise, if I dont have treats nearby, I will mark the behavior with a Yes! Then very enthusiastically say, Lets go get a cookie! Such a good job! so the dog has a connection between obeying and the reward. Once the behavior is well trained, I often just praise the dog . But periodically I will still give treats.

 

At any rate when I am actively training a dog, which it sounds like you are doing, I want to always be ready to mark and reward. That is why I like to use a verbal marker as well as a clicker. In addition to treats, I also use toys and play as rewards for behavior. And of course, praise.

 

This is great, I appreciate everyone's perspective. I agree about the defiance vs. over-threshold perspective too. I think the defiance idea came out of my own frustration with the situation. I forgot to see it from her perspective. It takes a lot of work to stay in that head space.

 

One problem I see is that the words I always used to verbally praise her "Yes!" or "Good dog!" are now very arousing to her. In instances where she might turn from the cat and come to me, often if I enthusiastically reinforce that with a "Good!" she will excitedly zip back to the behavior, if that makes sense. For example, when I use verbal reinforcement on walks, saying "good girl!" when she falls into a nice walking position simply forces her to zip forward (makes me crazy!). The clicker is still the only thing that doesn't arouse her, but juggling a leash, treats and a clicker is a pain on walks. Anyway, what frustrates me is that verbal commands seem to signal to her to run back to whatever she was doing a lot of the time rather than pay more attention to me. This is frustrating because I spent months simply conditioning the positive verbal commands with treats before applying them to many activities. Bah!

 

So, what I need is a way to calmly reinforce her in a way that says "good girl, you are doing what you should, keep it up..."

[deadlywarbler]

There's another way of looking at this that doesn't involve "defiance."

 

It could be that she was over threshold, has not yet learned sufficient impulse control and doesn't yet have a reliable recall, all of which point to a need for more work on your part -- i.e. working on impulse control and strengthening her response to your cues.

 

What I see hear is that you tried to coax her to come to you rather than used a well proofed cue in a situation where she was already highly aroused. There's a difference between this and having a solid, reliable recall, and in particular an emergence recall cue as has been suggested in previous posts.

 

I'm not there and can't see what's going on, but is it possible that you have expectations of her obeying you when you haven't really proofed your cues yet? IOW, that you haven't completely taught her that you expect her to respond each and every time? Border collies are incredibly talented in learning things we don't intend to teach them, and one of those things can be that we don't always mean what we say. If you don't follow through with cues 100% of the time and let her get away with things sometimes, or even just let her responses be slow or sloppy sometimes, she may have learned that you really don't expect her to respond every time, even though you think you have that expectation. Does that make sense?

 

I'd also caution against placing values on her behaviors. Things like "defiance." You can't really know what's going on in her head. You can't know whether she intended to be defiant or simply wasn't controlling her impulses. But by choosing to interpret her behavior as defiant, you set up an adversarial relationship between the two of you in your mind, and this colors your relationship with her and your feelings about her. If you can look at it instead in more neutral terms of "she's exhibiting this or that behavior, what do I need to do to change those behaviors," I think you'll experience less exasperation with her and probably be happier with the results in the long run.

 

Now, if I can just remember to practice what I preach with my own "Pig Fly" dog . . .

 

Best wishes. It's not always easy.

 

ETA: I Hadn't read Alligande's post before replying. It looks like we're saying the same thing about value judgements like "defiance."

 

You are right, GentleLake, I have been lax on certain commands. The recall issue is a really hard one. She's already learned that "come" isn't a super important command. I'm beginning to slowly apply a whistle command to times when I know she'll come to me, so that seems to be helping outdoors, but I'm certainly not going to whistle loud inside.

 

Anyway, she's outstanding a blowing me off, which ups my frustrations, but I hear what you are saying about labeling or coloring behaviors. I'll work to view them more objectively and figure ways to change them.

 

I thought a lot yesterday about the notion of a dog "respecting" an owner and what exactly that means and how you earn that respect. I don't feel like my dog really "respects" me, but then I'm struggling to figure out what that means. Training is a challenging process!

[d112358]

There's a natural advantage to use food rewards for calm or stationary behaviors and play for active behaviors - physiologically food calms and play stimulates. Same thing with verbal praise: 'yes' and 'good girl' usually exit my mouth in an upbeat, exciting tone. I use a very calm 'there' to mark when my dog has settled in place, so I have something that won't cause her to break.

[moosikins]

Thanks Blackdawgs, I had a hunch this would work. I'll be trying it out this week. I also like the suggestion of college campuses, so I may try that as a new spot too!

Beware the college campus where all the girls come running to pet the dog! I do that occasionally since my husband works on a campus and each time Callie just spends more time laying on the ground, belly up, getting petted and babied. She's such a ham when there are people willing to pet her, so we don't get any loose leash or distraction training done during our walks out there. Great for socialization though...

[alligande]

 

Anyway, she's outstanding a blowing me off, which ups my frustrations, but I hear what you are saying about labeling or coloring behaviors. I'll work to view them more objectively and figure ways to change them.

 

I thought a lot yesterday about the notion of a dog "respecting" an owner and what exactly that means and how you earn that respect. I don't feel like my dog really "respects" me, but then I'm struggling to figure out what that means. Training is a challenging process!

I think you answered your own question about respect in the first paragraph I quoted, it really is just a label. You are developing a relationship with your dog, there are different ways to build that and we all want something a little different. For example I have never thought of my current dog as having or needing respect for me, rather I think of us as a team each bringing something to the table, and we make a dam good team and that is what makes me very proud.

[Kylos86]

Hi I have a 10 month old called Django and my advice for you would be to keep calm and consistent with all your interactions, training or just about the house. We have good days and bad days with training but you have to except and examine the bad days so you can improve the next time. Something thats worked for me so far is just stopping any training that day if it isnt going well as there is no point pushing it, young dogs have all kinds of changes going on day to day which can make them more or less receptive and we need to try and read this. On the days when it is going well I make a huge deal out of it and he gets extra rewards and attention even after we return home. I also repeat what he has learn at the park at home then he rests and it all sinks in.

 

We have the same problem with our two cats except ours dont fight back, I have managed to train a "be nice" command and this has got as far as he no longer charges the cats but he still puts his paws up where ever they (kitchen worktops or table) are and sniffs them. All I have done for this is when I see him about to react to the cats presents I block him and say "be nice" when he calms down and is just sniffing them or not approaching them at all he get loads of praise.

 

The pestering you to play with toys in the house will only be resolved quickly now by removing the toys completely or having a designated "play area" where the toys are kept. We opted to basically ban toys from the house for the same reason, he has a ball in the yard which he can't bring inside and the rest are used on walks only. We introduced some rawhide chews into the lounge and he has around 5 partially eaten ones at any one time and we only have to say "where's your chew?" and he will go and get it, he sometimes brings it to me so I hold it whilst he chews but if you say "let's see" he runs away with it and settles down. The "lets see" I think must have been negatively reinforced when trying to get something off him when he was in his chewing phase and him getting away with not giving it back.

 

We have also gone back to basics with recall which is a long line, when he looks up from whatever I call him withe "come" or whistle. He responds better to the whistle as with the verbal command I had to reel him in with long line the first few times, now he is off the long line and I only recall when he looks at me and I will repeat this for a few weeks and then test if he will come when distracted. I reward with cooked sausage or cheese and ask him to wait or heel after he has his reward then say "go on" and let him run again.

 

Stay positive, stay focused, repetition, reward and enjoy the learning curves as each challenge you overcome makes you a better equipped owner for your dog

[CptJack]

I think the 'it's not a destination, it's a journey' thing is what's kept me sane through dealing with dogs. There is always something that could be better, or that is a problem. You get to a point that it's not bad, but there is always something

 

Molly is beautiful. Good obedience, great off leash skills and reliability, good off switch, perfect house manners, great play skills/commands, knows dozens of stupid pet tricks, doesn't pull-

 

and is reactive to the ends of the earth on leash toward dogs and suddenly, inexplicably, terrified of strange people when she's leashed. Anyone who sees her just sees a lunging, growling, barking, lunatic instead of the awesome dog I know and love. I am going to be spending the next two months in a foundations agility class sitting in the corner and counter conditioning her - while, I add, doing absolutely no agility at all. Frankly speaking, I kind of want to cry.

 

But I know from experience, that when she's 2 years old she won't be perfect but she'll be good.

At 8-10-12 months old my last two puppies were also some variety of train-wreck.

 

This too will pass.

Still: Sympathy. Lots and lots of sympathy. (Did I mention wanting to cry just a little?)

[Shetlander]

>>Anyone who sees her just sees a lunging, growling, barking, lunatic instead of the awesome dog I know and love. I am going to be spending the next two months in a foundations agility class sitting in the corner and counter conditioning her - while, I add, doing absolutely no agility at all. Frankly speaking, I kind of want to cry.<<

 

Awww. {{{HUGS}}}

 

Our dogs teach us so much, each with their own lessons for us. One of my obedience instructors would say that we become better trainers and owners with each dog.

 

You and your Molly will come through this, stronger and closer. In the meantime, I know it is hard, but the bond you are building and what you accomplish together will be all the sweeter for the struggle.

[CptJack]

You know, objectively my reaction here has almost nothing to do with Molly or her behavior and everything to do with ME. Objectively, I don't care if she never does agility, her issues aren't so major as to be difficult to manage, dangerous to herself/other dogs or people, or to seriously limit her life - and that's without accounting for the fact that quite frankly I don't believe this is going to be a lifelong state of being for her. I've seen worse; we'll get through this.

 

Nope, all of this is down to me, and my pride.

 

I'm altogether too aware that when people see her out and about (and especially in this class), the assumption is that I messed up. I didn't socialize enough, or train enough, or generally did something horribly wrong. I FEEL like I failed, though I know rationally I probably didn't. Then there's the embarrassment factor of the whole thing.

So, yeah. This is going to teach me something - it's going to teach me to get over myself and my investment in having the star pupil in class, and caring what other people think and what's important. And I'm going to go sit in that class and forget about being embarrassed and work with my dog. THEN I am going to take this class again, as many times as it takes or as many times as the instructor will let me - because it's really a pretty golden opportunity to work on this stuff.

You're right; we'll come out better and closer for it.

And I'm still probably going to want to curl up and cry sometimes but if I'm smart I'll remember that's a ME thing and MY weird reactivity issues - not hers.

[Donald McCaig]

Yep. You've got it. And Good Luck will descend upon Molly and you like manna from heaven.

 

Donald McCaig

[deadlywarbler]

I think you answered your own question about respect in the first paragraph I quoted, it really is just a label. You are developing a relationship with your dog, there are different ways to build that and we all want something a little different. For example I have never thought of my current dog as having or needing respect for me, rather I think of us as a team each bringing something to the table, and we make a dam good team and that is what makes me very proud.

 

This is great alligande! I'd love to share the sentiment, but it doesn't feel the same around here. I need to change up my perspective a little, but it's been a constant process to get the pup to work with me.

[GentleLake]

CptJack, I feel your pain. This is Tansy to a T, except that she loves all people but is way overly exuberant in her greetings.

 

I love your attitude here and it's given me the boost I need to try again with her. And I think I'll steal your plan of just going to a class with no expectations other than to just sit with her in a corner and work on the reactivity.

 

Thanks so very much for this!!

[CptJack]

I think most of Molly's issues with people are just down to stressors stacking up, honestly (and not necessarily negative stress - super excitement counts). Two, maybe three things that normally get her going and she's okay, but that one more comes along and she just can't deal.

 

I feel kind guilty for using the class that way, but upon thinking about it - nah. She's not stopping other dogs being able to work, she's not going off constantly, we're not disruptive and I paid to be there. So definitely give it a try, because it's the BEST, most controlled access to that kind of thing I've found and I really do think it will help.

I'm glad I was encouraging! Makes me feel better about myself.

[alligande]

 

This is great alligande! I'd love to share the sentiment, but it doesn't feel the same around here. I need to change up my perspective a little, but it's been a constant process to get the pup to work with me.

Rievaulx was not my first dog or my first border collie, he was my first puppy and we made mistakes along the way, mostly with house training but the biggest thing that has made our partnership great is that training is just a game, he is now 5 and still we play games together. Sometimes they are just silly games, sometimes he is learning something but to him anything we do together is fun even his boring physio exercises I still try to make fun so that he wants walk slowly through cavaletti.

[deadlywarbler]

Rievaulx was not my first dog or my first border collie, he was my first puppy and we made mistakes along the way, mostly with house training but the biggest thing that has made our partnership great is that training is just a game, he is now 5 and still we play games together. Sometimes they are just silly games, sometimes he is learning something but to him anything we do together is fun even his boring physio exercises I still try to make fun so that he wants walk slowly through cavaletti.

 

I think I've made quite a few mistakes along the way. I think I over used certain command words, and tied a reaction to certain words like "ok". These have been hard things to overcome. I decided around 15 weeks to just play with her and stop doing any structured training. It was my hope that she'd start to associate playing with training and vis versa. This worked to an extent, but she learned the difference really quick.

 

I've been thinking a lot the past few days that even thought I've never been abusive or hurt the pup in any way, I've been too emotionally reactive with her. It comes from my inexperience in training and not knowing exactly what to do in certain instances. I'm regretting the way I reacted when she got into a scuffle with my sister's dog. I misread what was happening and reacted loudly. I think that only makes things worse.

 

I would like to think that being as intelligent as BCs are that they would be MORE accommodating to dummy trainers than they are. =)

[gcv-border]

 

 

I would like to think that being as intelligent as BCs are that they would be MORE accommodating to dummy trainers than they are. =)

Exactly the opposite. This ^^^ is a common misconception.

 

The other misconception is that because they are so smart, they don't need much training.

[CptJack]

Exactly the opposite. This ^^^ is a common misconception.

 

The other misconception is that because they are so smart, they don't need much training.

 

Yeah, ditto this.

 

Someone needs to re-frame the BC intelligence hype into something that addresses the fact that really they will notice EVERYTHING - and will then draw conclusions and make mental leaps and while sometimes that looks fantastic and has awesome results, sometimes it means that once the dog went through a door while you were scrambling eggs and there was a thunder clap and now they run and hide when they see the egg carton.

[Shetlander]

I would like to think that being as intelligent as BCs are that they would be MORE accommodating to dummy trainers than they are. =)

 

When I was training Quinn on the weaves and he made an incorrect entry, I would let him know he had to start over. He started to immediately go back to fix the entry and in a couple of reps had come up with this rather impressive figure eight he did around the first two poles before correctly entering the poles to fly through all twelve. Every time he weaved, he started with a flourish, LOL. I had to quick change things so that when he missed his entry, he had to come and sit by me for 5 or 10 torturous seconds before being allowed to try it again. They can pick up behaviors you don’t want as easily as they do the behaviors you are trying to train.

[GentleLake]

Someone needs to re-frame the BC intelligence hype into something that addresses the fact that really they will notice EVERYTHING - and will then draw conclusions and make mental leaps and while sometimes that looks fantastic and has awesome results, sometimes it means that once the dog went through a door while you were scrambling eggs and there was a thunder clap and now they run and hide when they see the egg carton.

 

LOL Eggsactly!

[htmlgirl]

 

Yeah, ditto this.

 

Someone needs to re-frame the BC intelligence hype into something that addresses the fact that really they will notice EVERYTHING - and will then draw conclusions and make mental leaps and while sometimes that looks fantastic and has awesome results, sometimes it means that once the dog went through a door while you were scrambling eggs and there was a thunder clap and now they run and hide when they see the egg carton.

OMG, this. Still working on lingering fear of the oven being on here, after an unfortunate smoke detector going off incident during an extra fear period around 12 months. Well it's that or fear of my cooking LOL

[deadlywarbler]

Exactly the opposite. This ^^^ is a common misconception.

 

The other misconception is that because they are so smart, they don't need much training.

 

I totally understand, and luckily I realized that way before I got the pup. Still, it's hard not to be human and imperfect because she's picking up on ALL OF THAT! One sheepdog handler I worked with was noticing that my command for "lets go get some sheep!" and "that'll do" sounded virtually the same even thought I didn't see it that way. We were working on a problem of her diving in from a lie down at the ship when I gave the command "that'll do." How many other mistakes am I making, I have to wonder!

 

Lately I'm trying to remind myself that she's a young dog still (thank you to everyone in this thread that reminded me of that) and to keep calm and consistent with training...and to NOT let her mistakes affect me personally. I realized last night that that is a big part of these "low points."