Getting through the low points

[deadlywarbler]

I think I'm in a bit of training fatigue. This is the first time I have really not enjoyed my pup since I got her just over a year ago. She has been a handful from the get-go, but has also developed into a sweet dog. She's well manured around the house, no chewing or unwanted behaviors. At 15 months old I would expect the puppy behaviors to be through for the most part, which many of them are. What is frustrating me lately is that many of the challenges that I have been working on relentlessly with her simply are not coming to fruition.

 

The big one is her excitability and charging/growling at the cat in the house. I will give her the one point which is the cat is a major jerk, but i can't seem to get her to relax. The other day I found a portion of the porch screen pushed through where the cat usually sits and I know it was her. I've worked SO HARD to get her to stop and she simply will not. Seeing that porch screen was very discouraging.

 

So, I wonder how others have dealt with the low points in training a young BC. At the moment I'm really feeling no joy whatsoever around the pup, which is very hard since she is always there and always wants to be involved with me.

 

What I want for this new year is to get her weaned off the ball a little bit. She's definitely ball obsessed, which I take full responsibility for. It was the best form of exercise I had available. I need her recall to be better and I need her not charging cats or generally being reactive (outside of the normal BC behavior). What I want most of all is to feel like the hours and hours of work I put in will actually pay off. Thanks everyone!

[chene]

There are two reasons you may not be seeing progress. Either A. It takes a long time before it'll start to pay off, or B. You need to change techniques. I'm sure you know that, but maybe if you elaborate on the situation we can help figure out which it is. Sometimes a new approach is all it takes. Sometimes you might even need to get some help from a professional trainer. Who knows?

In terms of your actual question, Aed hasn't had low points of any real length, since he's still very young and learning and growing quickly. But my suggestion would be to take up a new activity with her. It doesn't have to be much. It could be something like herding, agility, obedience, flyball, therapy, SAR, humane education, OR it could be more like hiking, frisbee, trick training, puzzle toys, going to new dog parks around the area, finding new friends (human or canine) for her to associate with, whatever. Just something completely new that you can work with her and enjoy her and see progress in, away from the house, where there's a whole aspect to your life with her that's separate from the issues you're having.

That's all I have for now. I'm sorry training's not going well. It'll pick up, though. It always does. And in terms of outgoing puppy behaviours, most BC's don't get there until 2 years, sometimes 3.

[waffles]

I know sometimes simple answers are annoying but if she is ball obsessed then stop throwing balls for her. Throw them all in the trash or donate to a rescue. At the very least put them away and only take them out for a couple minutes of play then put away again.

 

Then, find something else to do together -long walks (drive to new neighborhoods, parks, college campuses, etc), swimming, meet up with friends or family who have friendly dogs, sign up for classes (scent, tricks, obedience, whatever you can find that sounds fun), teach her tricks, buy or make puzzle toys, jolly balls (the big ones they push around), and so on. There is so much more to do with a dog then just mindlessly fetching a ball. Even if you switch to frisbee or kicking around a soccer ball or something, I would still limit the activity 5 min or so then go do something else. If her main source of exercise is coming from one thing, it makes sense that she might obsess over it.

 

I think a lot of people feel the way you do at certain points in their dog's life. It seems like a new change of scenery and activity would take th frustration away from you and shake things up a bit. Also, many places are starting to offer reactive dog classes, shy dog classes, "scaredy cat" classes, impulse classes, it may help to seek out a specialized class like this to help you with her reactivity. Fresh outside eyes can really help when you get stuck in a training rut.

[Shetlander]

My first thought is 15 months is still quite young and requires a certain amount of management. I really consider them still like teens. Most of my dogs at that age have had goofy episodes (Quinn sometimes had what I referred to as Irish Setter Moments where he not only acted as if he had little to no training, but behaved as though we had never met each other before). Time, clear expectations, consistency and knowing when to take a break from training (so a certain Border Collie could reconnect with his brain, for instance) help get us through those trying times.

 

Second thought is one of my favorite clichés that training is a journey and not a destination. We can have something very well trained, but we may need to do periodic (or frequent) refreshers or be sure to reinforce what we like and not reinforce or allow the dog to self-reinforce behaviors we don't like. Not allowing the dog to self-reinforce is a big one. Charging the cat is probably extremely self-reinforcing. What have you been doing to work on that? I like the approach in Click to Calm by Emma Parsons but others here are big fans of Control Unleashed.

 

Management of unwanted, especially self-reinforcing behaviors is also crucial. In this case, it would be not allowing the cat and dog to be able to interact without you there to intervene. When I had to break my Sheltie of extremely ingrained nuisance barking in the backyard, the first step was not to allow her in the backyard unless I was home to prevent or stop barking jags. Otherwise, she would have been lovely while I was home and driving my neighbors crazy when I was gone. So I closed up the dog door when I left the house. When I was home, I reinforced the non barking behavior I wanted and made her come inside when she persisted in barking (time out/negative punishment). She became a model, quiet Sheltie citizen but I know if she was given the opportunity to practice the barking outside, she would have quickly returned to that behavior.

 

The ball obsession -- does she have access to balls at all times or does she hang out where you store the balls? Quinn is insane for fetch but I keep all fetch and tug toys put away in the garage when we are not playing. He might have wanted to moon around by them as a pup, but I either made him come inside with me or he was ready to move on to a new activity and he followed me freely. Over time, he learned the game is over when I say That will do. Now he will sometimes try to convince me we need to play. He might keep heading hopefully towards the door to the garage every time I move in that direction. Or he might come up to me and give a happy howl or playfully snap his teeth, which he does when he wants to play. But he does not have the opportunity to obsess about the toys themselves. This is back to management. Now if you are already putting away the balls and she is still obsessing, I would need to know more to respond.

 

The recall -- keep working it. Keep reinforcing it. Never allow her to ignore it. Never call her when you don't feel like enforcing it. Don't call her only or mainly when you are ending the fun (call her, reward her and send her back to what she was doing). I sympathize because I will say that I worked way, way harder on Quinn's recall than any of my other dogs and it took way longer to get a recall that I find just acceptable. All my other dogs had beautiful, reliable recalls even if I was calling them off a rabbit. And most of them learned it through pretty basic repetition and hanging out with older, trained dogs. Not Quinn. In the end, the sheer amount of repetition and reinforcement (I am talking years' worth) got his recall where I can live with it. Not all dogs are the same when it comes to training certain behaviors.

 

You sound pretty down, about maybe more than just some frustration with the dog. Or maybe it was just a really bad day with the dog. I think we have all had those types of days. Of course, feeling down and discouraged isn't the right frame of mind of training. Your girl may well pick up on your stress. When training, it is helpful to be as upbeat and energetic as possible. Maybe for now do a little more management (keeping the cat and dog separate, keeping her leashed at certain times if the recall is shaky) and save the training for when you are feeling happier about working on these issues with her. Do you do clicker training or trick training or other types of activities? Maybe find something fun the two of you can do together to reconnect in addition to tackling the problem behaviors now or later. Have you looked at different approaches for training the recall or other commands? Sometimes a new way will energize you and engage the dog better. Or you can just hang out together until you feel like training again.

 

Good luck. It will get better!

[Gideon's girl]

The problem with cats is that they are self reinforcing. Short of her never laying eyes on the cat outside of a situation that you can control, I don't know if you can fix that issue, because every time she gets to control her reaction to the cat she is reinforcing herself.

[Shetlander]

The problem with cats is that they are self reinforcing. Short of her never laying eyes on the cat outside of a situation that you can control, I don't know if you can fix that issue, because every time she gets to control her reaction to the cat she is reinforcing herself.

I don't know the details of what is happening with the cat,but I wouldn't say outright the behavior can't be modified and managed. Especially without know what has been done to address the problem. Self-reinforcing behaviors can be very challenging but often they are nowhere near impossible to change. You may need a plan, some creativity, and lots of consistency, but I think there is hope.

[dsmbc]

I will say this from experience - get rid of the balls. A ball obsessed dog is a hard, hard, hard thing to overcome. Do find another way to exercise. Seriously. The Constant ball throwing will make an obsessed dog.

 

With that said 15 mos is young, but there is a lot you can do to build your relationship and overcome some of the issues you are struggling with. Play games, train tricks, take a class, anything that engages the mind as well as the body will help a lot! Also, Denise Fenzie dog sport academy has an online "prey drive" course that many folks use to get their dog to stop chasing the cat. maybe check that out.

[notailabigail]

Teach her that the ball game is played by your rules, like Shetlander said - it starts when you start it (choose a cue that means you're going to start the game) and it ends when you end it (another cue - like 'all done' - to end it). When it ends, don't give in to any amount of staring, whining, circling, etc. If you want to start the game again, start it when she isn't obsessing over it. That way you'll reinforce the 'not obsessing' instead of the 'obsessing'.

 

Use that ball obsession to your advantage instead of letting it annoy you. If you need to work on her recall and she loves the ball, use the ball as a reward. Make sure you're still using it in the context of your rules though - reward her with it, then end the game. You'll end up with an awesome recall on her if you reward with something that she absolutely loves!

[GentleLake]

Teach her that the ball game is played by your rules, like Shetlander said - it starts when you start it (choose a cue that means you're going to start the game) and it ends when you end it (another cue - like 'all done' - to end it).

 

^^This.

 

I do, however, like to mitigate the disappointment an eager dog has when hearing the game is over by adding one more cure in warning. For the next-to-last ball thrown, I announce "Last one!", so that the dog knows the game will be ending after that throw and be prepared for it. They learn this quickly and you'll see it in the more relaxed way they bring that last ball back.

 

I just think it's more respectful of their feelings this way.

[Gideon's girl]

My agility instructor decided to add the "last one" warning and her dog decided to not bring back the last one, but it works great for my dogs.

[Shetlander]

My agility instructor decided to add the "last one" warning and her dog decided to not bring back the last one, but it works great for my dogs.

LOL.

[CptJack]

My agility instructor decided to add the "last one" warning and her dog decided to not bring back the last one, but it works great for my dogs.

 

This is exactly what Molly did. Works great for Kylie and Thud. They'd go get that last one and bring it back then start for the house. Molly? NOPE.

[GentleLake]

My agility instructor decided to add the "last one" warning and her dog decided to not bring back the last one

 

Too funny. Mine have started to drop the ball occasionally when bringing the last one back, but I've just reminded them to "bring it here." So far it's worked.

[Gideon's girl]

Hers runs laps with the last one or just stares at her, like "You go get it then."

[deadlywarbler]

Hi Everyone, sorry for the delay in responding, I was away from my computer. So many things to respond to, but so many good suggestion. You called it, I was having a bad day... I felt very disconnected from my dog and that is new for me because I LOVE her so much. She started the day by introducing a new challenge: charging the cat through a closed door. This was the first time this had ever happened (normally she just looks curiously at the door when she hears her behind there). She did it once and I calmly tried to redirect her. She did it again and I got frustrated, poked her hind side which knocked her over a bit and yelled "No!" I never know if this is too much. I vowed to never hit or abuse this dog (I'm not that kind of person and i don't believe it is effective in training) but she blew it and I was mad. This is when I knew we were both having a bad day. Thoughts?

 

Regarding the ball, she gets a lot of ball play, I admit. The game is highly structured, however. In short, no the balls are all put away if we aren't playing. After a ball session, I conclude with "all done!" and she enthusiastically goes to drink water and lay down. I stopped using "last one" because she figured that one out right away. So now the game ends suddenly and she doesn't protest. That being said, if there is any toy inside or outside of the house, she will drop it at anyone's feet and stare at it...literally for a long long time. This is cute in some instances, and annoying in others. I keep inside toys handy so she has something positive to play with and doesn't get the idea that shoes or furniture will do.

[deadlywarbler]

Regarding new activities, I have been feeling that pull as well. We have a general routine, but I feel like we need more. I am a mountain biker, so naturally I love the idea of having her come on rides with me. The only problem there is that I can't entirely predict her behavior with other dogs/bikes/people on trail. Not that I think she'd be bad, but that she just doesn't understand the trail and might knock someone off a bike accidentally. The other one is that we occasionally encounter horses on trail and I can't be sure she won't spook the horses, which would be REALLY BAD.

 

I like the idea of new walks, but her leash walking is really bad. I've been working on this with her since she was 10 weeks old using treats, clickers and the "red light, green light" game. Still she is the perfect example of what Leslie McDevitt calls a "yo-yo dog." She will hit the end of the leash at which point I stop, she returns to my side and the minute I start to move she shoots straight forward to the end of the leash. So, after a year of constantly working on this, new walks are not exactly fun relaxing explorations, they are tiring and frustrating. This is something that I am still working on diligently, but I would love to be able to take long walks with her. One thought I had was simply extending the walk distance so she tires out a little bit. In that mindset I can start to reinforce the nice walking. What do you think?

[deadlywarbler]

Finally regarding the cat: I get how this situation is self reinforcing. Unfortunately the cat is sequestered into a certain part of the house as a result. I could start to reintroduce them on leash, but the cat needs to be on a leash too. Brix doesn't have issues with any other cats, unless they startle her outside. I've seen her laying calmly in a house with a cat near by. This cat has attacked her multiple times, so she obviously has her tagged as a threat/interest. The problem with reintroducing them is that the cat is as likely to charge the dog as the other way around. My inclination is that they need to be separate, but this isn't a long term solution since my girlfriend doesn't like having the cat put away in a back portion of the house.

[Blackdawgs]

The other night I took my dog for a walk after some core work, playing fetch, and tug games....and the walk was actually pleasant. Get the dog tired BEFORE you walk him.

[deadlywarbler]

Thanks Blackdawgs, I had a hunch this would work. I'll be trying it out this week. I also like the suggestion of college campuses, so I may try that as a new spot too!

[Pippin's person]

One thing that could work is to simultaneously train the cat and the dog out of that relationship. I had very good luck fixing a bad relationship between a dog and cat by feeding them roast beef when they were calmly sitting next to each other. It took some slow work but in the end paid off. Since both animals are involved, you'll probably have the best luck working on both of them.

 

Training takes a lot more time than you might assume from what you read (here or elsewhere) and it's pretty easy to feel discouraged when things don't seem to work. I don't think it's a problem to correct a dog who is doing something you don't want it to do--as long as you are consistent with that (e.g. if you let her do it sometimes and correct her other times, she will be confused). Your dog is still very young.

 

On the recall--try really hard not to call her unless you are certain she will come. If you've already "used up" your recall term, find another one. With our first dog, we had to shift from "come" to "hey" because we wore out the "come".

[ourwully]

If you are looking for an alternate recall, you could try a whistle. One of the best suggestions I have had was to build up a whistle recall. I started back in August with a regular whistle a couple of times a day in situations where I knew it would not fail. I have continued with this no fail type of training and it has been working but I still haven't used it in an emergency situation yet. I am trying to reserve it until it is 100% before I use it on a regular basis or an emergency. Lately I have been giving her what Leslie Nelson calls fine dining (treating slowly with a small bit of hot dog for 30 seconds) when she returns to the whistle. I have noticed a quicker recall since I started treating her for 30 seconds. Taking the time to get my gloves off and hand feed a small treat for 30 seconds is a pain but it does seem to help. I am also doing the same thing in the house to another recall cue ("Here").

 

Good Luck

Bill

[chene]

re: The leash walking, we combined the "stop and go" with teaching a loose heel and asking for it during leash walks whenever he's under threshold enough to do it. I find they start to mesh in his mind so he understands not only that he can't pull but that the fastest way is to stay near my side. It is a very loose heel, he can even walk a little in front of me if he wants, but he gets treated (often) with the treat at my thigh, so he has to come back to get it anyways.

[Shetlander]

She started the day by introducing a new challenge: charging the cat through a closed door. This was the first time this had ever happened (normally she just looks curiously at the door when she hears her behind there). She did it once and I calmly tried to redirect her. She did it again and I got frustrated, poked her hind side which knocked her over a bit and yelled "No!" I never know if this is too much. I vowed to never hit or abuse this dog (I'm not that kind of person and i don't believe it is effective in training) but she blew it and I was mad. This is when I knew we were both having a bad day. Thoughts?

 

Now I am going to say this with the sole intention of being helpful. Your dog didn't blow it. You blew it. We all blow it at times. I have blown it with every one of my dogs and definitely more than once. I am not always smart, on top of things, patient, calm, know when to quit, etc. The reason I am making this point is when we realize we are the ones who blew it, we can learn from what went wrong and look for better ways to train. As you noted, what you did was not how you want to interact with your dog and not what you consider effective training.

 

The cat situation sounds complicated. Your dog needs to be protected as does the cat. I like Robin's suggestion of feeding the something wonderful when they are calmly next to each other. You may need to work up to that. Just scolding/correcting the unwanted behaviors doesn't sound like it is enough. I strongly recommend using the techniques in Click to Calm. I have also heard good things about Control Unleashed but haven't used it myself. However, the cat can't be allowed to attack your dog. This kind of situation can escalate to dangerous levels, so you and your girlfriend need to come up with a plan.

 

The walking. Have you tried a no pull harness? That worked well when Quinn was a youngster. A few years ago I bought him a harness that is supposed to be very comfortable and worried he might start pulling harder (he was ok but never truly a loose leash walker). To my surprise, he walked better with the harness. Just some thoughts.

 

Finally on the subject of her bugging you to play in the house, you could teach her a command that means no, I am not playing with you (that could even be the command LOL). For things like that, I use a Three Strikes rule. I will say it twice but if I have to say it a third time, there is a consequence. In this situation, I would take the toy and put it up for 15 minutes or however long it took me to remember to put the toy back in reach, which given how easily distracted I am, might be hours. She should pretty quickly learn it is better to have the toy without your immediate attention than to not have the toy or you to play with. I don't think all balls need to be thrown away. If she doesn't get rewarded and isn't allowed to obsess, that behavior can be fixed.

[deadlywarbler]

Now I am going to say this with the sole intention of being helpful. Your dog didn't blow it. You blew it. We all blow it at times. I have blown it with every one of my dogs and definitely more than once. I am not always smart, on top of things, patient, calm, know when to quit, etc. The reason I am making this point is when we realize we are the ones who blew it, we can learn from what went wrong and look for better ways to train. As you noted, what you did was not how you want to interact with your dog and not what you consider effective training.

 

The cat situation sounds complicated. Your dog needs to be protected as does the cat. I like Robin's suggestion of feeding the something wonderful when they are calmly next to each other. You may need to work up to that. Just scolding/correcting the unwanted behaviors doesn't sound like it is enough. I strongly recommend using the techniques in Click to Calm. I have also heard good things about Control Unleashed but haven't used it myself. However, the cat can't be allowed to attack your dog. This kind of situation can escalate to dangerous levels, so you and your girlfriend need to come up with a plan.

 

The walking. Have you tried a no pull harness? That worked well when Quinn was a youngster. A few years ago I bought him a harness that is supposed to be very comfortable and worried he might start pulling harder (he was ok but never truly a loose leash walker). To my surprise, he walked better with the harness. Just some thoughts.

 

Finally on the subject of her bugging you to play in the house, you could teach her a command that means no, I am not playing with you (that could even be the command LOL). For things like that, I use a Three Strikes rule. I will say it twice but if I have to say it a third time, there is a consequence. In this situation, I would take the toy and put it up for 15 minutes or however long it took me to remember to put the toy back in reach, which given how easily distracted I am, might be hours. She should pretty quickly learn it is better to have the toy without your immediate attention than to not have the toy or you to play with. I don't think all balls need to be thrown away. If she doesn't get rewarded and isn't allowed to obsess, that behavior can be fixed.

 

Shetlander, thank you! I know you are being helpful and I appreciate the reply. I'm trying to be constantly aware of my shortcomings in her training. In this case she got aroused at the sound of the cat behind the door (tail slowly raised and body position slowly shifted forward). I saw this and assumed a gently tone and said "Hey buddy, come here!" I kneeled down in a position I know gets her to come over to me. She looked at me and turned back and charged the door. That's about as defiant as a dog can be. So I corrected her for that. It worked, but it's not the way I want to work with her. Can you see where I came up short here?

 

The click to calm and control unleashed philosophy makes so much sense to me. I've been working on reinforcing her looking at me, especially when I say "watch." I only do this when I'm sure she'll look my way. The one thing that gets to me about clicker training calm behavior is...do you need to carry treats and a clicker around every waking moment? In the above instance, it was first thing in the morning and I was just waking up and getting coffee going. The clicker was up in the cabinet with the other dog stuff. What do you all do in this case?

[alligande]

If I can make an observation, and I hope I can explain it well:

I don't think defiance is the right word to use, it sets up a certain expectation that she really understands what you want, and she probably doesn't. At that moment with the cat she had 2 choices, one to interact with her nemesis, the other you, unless you are 100% sure of her turning to interact with you, then she is not defying you, the cat was just a more pressing situation to her.

I would also suggest playing some relationship building games, so when you redirect her from the cat you are the highest value plaything she has.