gcv-border Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 My pup, Kiefer (10 months), has a bad habit of 'diving in' to my other dog, Torque, when Torque is running towards me (I have called him), and sometimes when Torque is just generally trotting around. The best way I can think to describe his behavior is that he laser-focuses on Torque and then sprints like a bullet toward him, usually body-slamming him. He has engaged in this behavior since he was about 4 or 5 months old. Not too bad when he was younger, but it is escalating in intensity as he matures. I don't think it is a protective response (even though it often happens when Torque is running towards me). I am of the opinion that it is bratty behavior - maybe with some dominance-testing thrown in. I have been hoping that he will grown out of this obnoxious behavior with some reminders from me to behave himself. I have tried some "Aaht, aaht" to stop him - which works OK if I am on the ball and catch him before he starts flying across the field towards his target (i.e. when I see him give Torque 'the stare'). I have also stepped in front of him and held my hand out and moved my body to block him - which can also work if my positioning is correct. There are also times when I have let him go and hope that Torque will give him a good lesson, but Torque doesn't seem to want to be an enforcer. He will usually try and sidestep him, or he may growl at him [after being body-slammed], and they have a bitey-face session where no one gets hurt. At these times, Kiefer will usually assume a submissive posture but is ready to start harassing Torque one second later. It usually takes a verbal reminder (Aaht or Hey) from me to break it up. I am now seeing that Torque will sometimes hesitate to run to me when I call him because he doesn't want to get 'attacked' by that bratty puppy. I also think it is unfair to expect him to deal with Kiefer's obnoxious body-slamming, and I don't want to put him in a situation where he finally gets fed up and maybe I have a dog fight on my hands. I am thinking that I need to come up with a consistent plan to try and extinguish this behavior. If anyone has dealt with a similar situation, or if you have some ideas, please speak up. I was considering keeping Kiefer on a long line to prevent the body-slamming and trying to engage him more on our free-range walks so he pays less attention to Torque. I like to let the 2 dogs run while we walk the fields and woods, but if he has to go on a long line, so be it. I was also thinking about setting up specific training situations to attempt to extinguish the 'diving in'. The trigger seems to be when I call Torque, Kiefer immediately becomes hyper-focused on the incoming Torque and wants to run at him. Maybe only call Torque when (a) I have Kiefer on a line and ( am able to get him to focus on me instead so that he can't body slam Torque. I may be making too much out of this since for the most part, Torque and Kiefer get along great and will occasionally engage in the "I chase you, you chase me in a circle" play. Looking forward to your suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 It's an obnoxious habit that is a spin off of herding instinct that some Border Collies turn into a game. It needs to be nipped in the bud because it will often get a Border Collie in trouble if they try it on other breeds. (It can be misinterpreted as a threat or aggression.) Use a long line if you need to. This is the teenage phase, when commands will be questioned and tested. Enforce them now and you will have a good dog. Let them slip and you may have a lifelong battle for obedience. The second you notice Kiefer even considering doing it, give a quick verbal correction (ex: "knock it off" is my choice for annoying behaviors). If he doesn't immediately stop, tell him to do something incompatible such as laying down or recalling to you. If he listens, redirect to another game. If he doesn't listen, he loses off leash privileges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 Do whatever it takes. Liz pointed out that this is bratty behavior and, at this point, he is well into the bad habit. Dan was quite like this with Megan when he was little as she was tolerant to a fault - and he would grab her as well. And that is why, when I didn't work hard enough to extinguish this when it first showed up, she lost the end of her tail. She had, under the fur, numerous slashes from his needle-like teeth. The one near the tip of her tail infected and got painful, and she attempted an amputation on her own. We had to have a vet do the job properly. She's now lost her "shepherd's lantern". Dogs can grow out of obnoxious behaviors but they are self-rewarding and often the dogs don't, the behavior can get worse, and someone can get hurt. Timing helps, blocking helps, a long line can help, just do what it takes. Very best wishes, Jovi! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 Dean was incredibly obnoxious toward Speedy when we first adopted him, and he was exactly the same age that Kiefer is now. He used to fixate on him and try to tackle him, which was not OK. I actually took him out separately for a while so he would get the hang of interacting with me, rather than fixating on Speedy. It worked very well. And while Bandit isn't doing anything like what Kiefer has been doing, it has been his preference to run in giant circles around Dean (who was retrieving) and then circle a rose bush and crouch and stare until I would throw the toy for Dean again. Now that Dean can't run outside (leg injury), I am noticing that Bandit is learning to play better by himself. At first he hardly knew what to do at first, but now he is choosing to interact with me during outdoor play much more than before. Totally different situation, but doing some one on one walks with Kiefer, giving him a chance to practice recalls oriented to you, might prove helpful . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 My very small mongrel bitch used to body slam my collie x just because she could and there were no repercussions because he was so submissive. It wasn't all the time because her favourite thing was tuning rabbits but if she did it I put her back on lead and over the years the behaviour diminished but didn't disappear completely. As he got older and less able to withstand the onslaught I just didn't take them out together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted January 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 Thanks for the suggestions. It sounds like I was on the right track, but need to step it up and be more consistent and incorporate the long line sooner. And I do like the idea of walking Kiefer separately at times - which means that Torque will get his special time too. And, wouldn't you know it, on this morning's walk, Kiefer was a model pup. No body-slamming or running at Torque. I KNOW that the good behavior will not last, and I will just have to be more vigilant from now on. Sue, I had never heard the term "shepherd's lantern" before. Thanks for that tidbit of info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 That's what some people call the white tail tip. Poor Megan, she's lost that bit of jauntiness... PS - Dan was a diver, slammer, and (as a pup) grabber. I found that knowing his triggers, avoiding them, being prepared and timely in blocking and reprimanding him (if I could catch him just before the idea occurred to him), and being vigilant and consistent, resulted in a huge reduction of the unwanted behaviors. Adulthood helped a wee bit but only with effort on my part. Some one-on-one time is always beneficial, and they love it! When I do that with Dan especially, it makes a big difference in our relationship. Very best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxi Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 The story goes that in days gone by after the working day on the hill was done, the shepherd would tell his dog "that'll do, let's go home'". In response, the dog would stop being in work mode (with his tail down) and instead hold it higher as he led the way back to the farm. (As we all probably have observed) The white tip on a border collie's tail seems to glow slightly in the moonlight and the shepherd would follow this 'lantern' to get safely home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jexa Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 Wow, replace Torque with Rudder and Kiefer with Max and I could've written this post Jovi! It's still very much a work in progress in my house so I love hearing others' ideas. What has helped a bit with us is an immediate "time-out" if I'm not able to head off the behavior. When I see "the look" in Max I give a quick "donteventhinkaboutit" growl to Max. Usually play time if he redirects. If he doesn't or I'm too late, he gets put on the leash and tied to the stall (this usually happens at the barn) for 5-10 min. He's so embarrassed about being in "time-out" that he'll often behave for he rest of the barn time. If not, after the second offense he goes in the pickup or tack room until we leave. Max already gets quite a bit of one one one time, but now Rudder also gets more one on one time, especially working on his recall. Like Torque, he's starting to become hesitant to come if Max is around so I want to reinforce good habits. I think part of the reason Max does it, especially when I call Rudder, is because he's jealous/resource guarding my attention. Rudder tends to be a lot mellower than Max so his praise for doing something right is a lot more excited than Max's. With Max I have to be careful to keep my voice calm even while praising the bejesus out of him to keep him under threshold. Rudder needs a little happier inflection to know he did the right thing . So I think when I call Rudder, Max knows Rudder is about to get "excited praise" and that amps Max up before it even happens. Maybe I need to work on calmer praise for Rudder and even harder on our "Max you don't need to be so freaking amped about everything, dog, it's really not a big deal" campaign. Best of luck with your two, please pass on anything that works! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jexa Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 Also very cool about the tails, I've never heard of it being called a shepard's lantern before. DH calls them "tails dipped in paint" and loves 'em. Rudder only has a nub and Max has little white, none on his tail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 Jexa, thanks for the giggles. :lol: And I'd never heard of the shepherds' lantern either. Love the story, Maxi. Bodhi would also be a poor shepherds' lantern. His white tail tip consists of about 10 hairs. His white collar's even worse -- about 5 hairs. Guess he prefers an understated look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxi Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 We'll.. old shepherds also say is 'watch the tail, it'll tell you what the dog is thinking' so allthough the romantic version is the one I gave before, I have wondered whether a more prosaic reason for callng the dog's tailtip a "shepherd's lantern" is that if the dog raises his tail up like someone holding a lantern, it is warning the shepherd that the dog may be about to dive into his sheep!..then it wouldn't matter what the tail colour was (Personally, I prefer the guide home story) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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