Guilt

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Everybody says dogs don't feel guilty, they just read their owners' disapproval and fear punishment. While I think humans can feel relatively undulterated guilt (guilt when there's no possibility of this-earthly punishment), in my experience guilt/fear of punishment are usually alloyed.

 

There's a bit more to this since often those most vehement about "Dogs don't feel guilt" wish to deny any moral sentiments to non-humans, either because they don't want to admit how like us dogs are or because they wish to defend Mr. Skinner's stunted theories.

 

Fly - age 9 - pees on the floor. Not usually - she can go months - and not from necessity (she never pees in motels and she pees before bedtime. Hers is a "protest pee" - too much disturbance in the house dinner party, overnight guest someone she really doesn't like, Anne or I going away. It is fairly predictable and when I remember I crate her that night.

 

I've never punished her for this - not even angry voice.

 

She always pees modestly in her protest place and I always know, first thing in the morning that she has protested because when I stumble half asleep to let the dogs out at 4 am, no FLy. She stays in her crate until I insist she go out.

 

 

Now if that ain't guilt, I don't know what is.

 

Like most human guilt, Fly's has no particular effect on her future protests.

 

Donald McCaig

[JohnLloydJones]

The "guilty" look that dogs give is, is of course, an appeasement signal. The do it when they see -- or expect -- their person to be angry. Young children do pretty much the same too, but we are usually content to use the word "guilt" for them. Whether or not you have punished her, raised your voice or, more likely, used body language that can be read as upset, Fly knows that she has done something that you do not like and behaves accordingly. Really the only discussion is what word to use; I'm with you.

[Mom of Mya]

As I have said before I think we humans could learn a lot from dogs. I have seen dogs show guilt or whatever word you want to call it time and time again, whereas humans who should show guilt and apologize act as if they have done nothing wrong whatsoever to feel guilty over.

 

We left Mya way too long the other day (was not our intention but we did not get back when expected). Not only did she meet me at the door with tail between her legs and ears back but she actually showed me where she had peed and was totally unhappy until I got it cleaned up. I knew it was our fault and not hers but still she felt this guilt or whatever you want to call it. I cleaned it up, told her it was not her fault this time, and took her out where she happily went to her grassy spot and peed again, after which she was praised and all was forgotten. A lot of people I know could learn how to be so apologetic.

[1sheepdoggal]

I handle many breeds of dogs large and small daily. I do things to them they dont really care to have done. If/when, one takes a dive for me, they immediatly know its wrong and go submissive. Some to the point of peeing a little. Face licking and hand licking with an almost Im sorry smile on thier lips. Yes. I believe guilt is an honest asupmtion of what the dog is feeling

[Shetlander]

My problem with the use of the word guilt when it comes to dogs is how some people (not those in the conversation so far) use it for their confused, submissive and/or even frightened animals who have not been adequately trained. Or minimally trained. Such people often feel justified in their anger and punishing responses. "He knows better! See how guilty he looks?" they might yell as they stomp towards the dog who slinks away or hides.

 

I know isn't the issue being discussed, but it is the issue that keeps me from joining an interesting conversation.

[alligande]

Mr McCaig you raise a subject I have long been curious about. Our first two dogs ( a border collie and a GSDx) did not have the level of training that my current dog does, but by average pet standards they were mannerly dogs, but when boredom struck both were capable of mischief. We would come home and point at the result of too much spare time and casualy ask who did it, sometimes one would look sad... You know the ears back look, the other would look happy, we got all the combinations,. It might not be guilt but dogs do know when they have broken the rules, even without the human getting upset.

[GentleLake]

We would come home and point at the result of too much spare time and casualy ask who did it, sometimes one would look sad... You know the ears back look, the other would look happy, we got all the combinations,. It might not be guilt but dogs do know when they have broken the rules, even without the human getting upset.

 

The only problem with identifying the culprit this way is that recent studies have shown that innocent dogs often react with the "guilty" look when their people ask the question, even in a nonthreatening manner, and that the ones who actually did the misdeed do not always react with the same look.

 

So unless you had a camera that captured the dog in the act or were hiding behind a window, how does a person really know which dog did it?

 

And I've often seen the dog who I know didn't do something (because I actually had seen it being done) look far more guilty than the actual offender.

 

I'm not 100% convinced that dogs don't feel or display guilt, but I'm also not so sure that I can interpret dogs' body language well enough to assign such subjective emotions to them.

 

ETA: I don't know about other people, but when I come home and find something, um, unusual that I don't like, I react. I don't yell at the dogs, but I feel (and sometimes hear) myself react before I have a chance to rein in my initial response. Even if I don't vocalize anything, I know that I come up short and probably make some sort of facial expression. Dogs are masters at reading even the most subtle body language in their humans, so even if we don't scold them, they're reading our reactions and know that something's wrong. That alone could explain the "guilty look."

[Bogwoppit]

I often wonder about this too. I think that sometimes an animal doing things outside what it knows is normal, clean, etc. will often be unhappy in itself. If I wet my bed, I'm not scared someone will yell, I'm unhappy I made something dirty outside the normal place. Perhaps the closest comparison is low level autism, it feels wrong because it's wrong, and we can't move past that.

 

We have a cat that does "dirty protests" when something makes her cross. Late feeds at a weekend, me leaving the house to learn to drive, etc. However we have never ever yelled or punished her. Her response if she does this undiscovered is to then gather things from around the house to cover her misdeed. In place of litter, toys, papers, one time a leaflet encouraging bowel cancer screenings that had the slogan "Hey you! Check your poo!"... She then hides and cries to herself. I think it distresses her when she does these things.

 

Spotted a relevant (daft) dog shame video this morning:

how much is the tone of the owner?

[Mom of Mya]

The only problem with identifying the culprit this way is that recent studies have shown that innocent dogs often react with the "guilty" look when their people ask the question, even in a nonthreatening manner, and that the ones who actually did the misdeed do not always react with the same look.

 

So unless you had a camera that captured the dog in the act or were hiding behind a window, how does a person really know which dog did it?

 

And I've often seen the dog who I know didn't do something (because I actually had seem it being done) look far more guilty than the actual offender.

 

I'm not 100% convinced that dogs don't feel or display guilt, but I'm also not so sure that I can interpret dogs' body language well enough to assign such subjective emotions to them.

 

ETA: I don't know about other people, but when I come home and find something, um, unusual that I don't like, I react. I don't yell at the dogs, but I feel (and sometimes hear) myself react before I have a chance to rein in my initial response. Even if I don't vocalize anything, I know that I come up short and probably make some sort of facial expression. Dogs are masters at reading even the most subtle body language in their humans, so even if we don't scold them, they're reading our reactions and know that something's wrong. That alone could explain the "guilty look."

 

I agree with both points. As above when I came home late i expected to find a mess waiting for me and you are right Mya probably sensed it before i even said anything. And also on the first point, my daughter has 2 dogs and her yorkie always knows my daughter is going to be upset when dixie the bigger mix (and a puppy) does things he knows she will not like. She knows he did not do it, because he cannot chew a huge hole in her wall and he has never destroyed really anything when she has left him but as you said he has the look on his face of guilt and licks her so as to say sorry and she knows he did not do it, but he probably feels her emotion of exhaustion and what am I going to do with you. Dixie is usually caged even when she goes our for an hour or two now...

[Mom of Mya]

My problem with the use of the word guilt when it comes to dogs is how some people (not those in the conversation so far) use it for their confused, submissive and/or even frightened animals who have not been adequately trained. Or minimally trained. Such people often feel justified in their anger and punishing responses. "He knows better! See how guilty he looks?" they might yell as they stomp towards the dog who slinks away or hides.

 

I know isn't the issue being discussed, but it is the issue that keeps me from joining an interesting conversation.

I agree with this too, but sometimes after a long day of work and exhaustion you yell first without thinking and then regret it later I know I have fallen into that category and then trying to make it up to the dog, but just yelling because the dog should know better I have not done. I am reading a really interesting book on dog training right now and I find it very interesting that the author addresses that the dogs already know the things we think we are teaching them, what we in fact are doing is just teaching the word or hand signal for the command, and the rules of which we want them to follow..

[Sue R]

I think that it's a natural-born trait for many Border Collies to be willing to accept the blame (or credit) for anything. That's what over-achievers do!

[geonni banner]

I often wonder about this too. I think that sometimes an animal doing things outside what it knows is normal, clean, etc. will often be unhappy in itself. If I wet my bed, I'm not scared someone will yell, I'm unhappy I made something dirty outside the normal place. Perhaps the closest comparison is low level autism, it feels wrong because it's wrong, and we can't move past that.

I think this is spot-on. Dogs, and Border Collies in particular have a good grip on routine, and are uncomfortable with deviations from it. If a dog is caught short by intestinal distress, or an unusually long confinement that results in an "emergency evacuation" they will probably be unhappy about it because they didn't go outside - as routine and habit would dictate. This alone would be enough to make a collie feel uncomfortable. Why would they not show signs of distress - despite your reaction - if they were already uneasy because the routine had been broken?

 

As for the "revenge piddler/ pooper" - dogs leave and gather huge amounts of information about the "dispenser" in their urine and feces. Being unable to write a curt note about distress or disturbance, they must do the next best thing - a poop-o-gram. It isn't your fault that you can't read the olfactory message contained therein, any more that it's their fault that they can't read a note stuck to the refrigerator. But like the refrigerator-note-placing-human, their messages can be usually be found in the same place over and over.

 

Humans, being a species with only one attitude about feces, (eeeeeew! disgusting!) usually reads the message wrong, and their immediate reaction to the appearance of urine or poop is nearly always negative - even if unconscious. Dogs may know this and be chagrined about having to leave a note on a type of stationary that their humans are disgusted by, but since it's the only kind they have, it's what they use. Unfortunately for the dog, the human sees only the fecal "note-paper," and is unable to appreciate the "text" it contains.

[moosikins]

Did you ever see the

video on YouTube? "Guilty" dogs are adorable, even if they are a little bit bad. Can't stay mad at them too long...

[kingfisher7151]

I've often wondered if the "guilt" dogs feel is similar to young kids. Children go through the stage where the only "guilt" they feel occurs when they get caught doing something wrong. It doesn't have to involve punishment either, just being caught in the wrong is unpleasant. It's only when humans reach higher levels of development that the guilt transforms into something they create for themselves, rather than something enforced by other people's reactions to a behavior. If dogs and kids react in a similar way, then I have no problem calling it "guilt", even if it's not the same definition that applies to adult beings. Dogs obviously learn the submissive behavior when they've been scolded for something, I don't see much of a reason not to call that guilt.