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Does the marking ever stop?


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That's the one thing that has really been driving me crazy. Keeper is 9 months old and intact and his latest obsession is peeing on EVERYTHING (outdoors). I know it's his hormones driving him crazy, but they're also driving ME crazy! He used to mark only minimally and would always give me a clear warning so I could avoid the situation. But now he'll literally walk and pee without a single warning if he wants to mark. He gets distracted during outdoor training because every single blade of grass merits a shower. I was mortified today when I walked him around an agility trial and without a single sniff or moment of hesitation he lifted a leg on a trashcan.

 

No, I will not neuter him early. He'll get the snip eventually, but he gets to enjoy 9 more months of testosterone first. I have tried correcting him, but I think that's part of why he's gotten faster about the marking. He knows he has to sneak it in before I catch him. Is there anything I can do other than waiting it out? Will this be a permanent obsession? His hormones are driving his little brain crazy, I'm hoping it ends soon.

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You just have to hope that it won't have become a habit by the time you get him neutered. The longer it goes on the more habitual it becomes rather than just hormone driven and therefore less likely to be improved by neutering. I'm assuming that his marking isn't stress related.

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Honestly, when it's marking and you know he doesn't have to pee just tell him to keep walking/move along and encourage him to do it. Leave it, 'come on' and 'enough' or whatever you use if he was sniffing something obsessively or trying to eat deer poop.

 

Hormones aren't really an excuse here. My younger intact male went through a phase where we reminded him a lot but after a week or so of solid "Nope, not happening" he learned. My spayed female came to me spayed and with a 'pee on every individual blade of grass' marking (no UTI - she was hiking her leg and marking) habit. That one took about 2 weeks of consistent interruption and redirection.


Getting sneaky and faster about it just means he's getting the message. Be stubborn about it and stay observant. It'll fade.

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The marking is definitely not stress related. It's "this is mine" related.

 

Unfortunately the "walking and not letting him pee" advice is exactly what I have been doing. We'll be walking along normally until he's suddenly peeing, stopped or not. The warning sniff is easy to see and stop, it's the drive-by pee that's getting me. That and if I'm more than 5 ft away any marking behavior is over and done before I get a chance to get a word out.

 

I don't think hormones are ever an excuse, but they're really affecting his behavior. You can see the instant his brain loses control and his man parts take over. I am obviously not going to put up with this behavior, I just don't know how to stop it. The few times I have been able to catch him in a really inappropriate pee I've been able to grab him and scold him, but I really, really hate doing that. Plus it doesn't help that everyone seems to think I'm abusing my dog. At the agility incident today I whipped around to correct him at the same instant that his tail got caught under the trash can so he let out a pitiful yelp. Therefore, he received a bunch of "aww's" from those watching while I am the pee monster. I try to be as positive as possible in training. I'll surely dish out a come-to-Jesus meeting if it's earned, but I don't trust myself with my timing for the most part.

 

He's getting sneakier about it, which is causing me such trouble. It seems like an easy problem to fix, but I manage to always be in the wrong place and the wrong time to correct anything.

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Dear Donald,

 

I can't stand jerks who are oblivious and let their male dogs piss on chairs, coolers, campers and even other people at trials.

 

Dear kingfisher,

 

You can absolutely teach a male dog to not pee on everything. Look for the signs he is thinking about doing it such as sniffing and shifting his weight in order to hike his leg up. Once you can recognize those signs, you can give a verbal correction such as "no" or "ah!" before he starts to pee and then ask for an incompatible behavior such as a sit or lie down.

 

I also recommend teaching a potty command and asking him to go prior to classes or entering areas where peeing will be undesirable. You can also walk him over to acceptable vertical surfaces, give him a potty command and let him mark where he can't hurt anything.

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When I take my dogs for a walk, I don't allow them to sniff around everywhere. I start the walk by taking them to the potty spot and tell them to go. After that, I'm moving at speed, training, etc and I don't give them time or allow the inclination. My husband walks slower and lets the dogs sniff around and pee wherever they want. The dogs all learn the difference.

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I can't stand jerks who are oblivious and let their male dogs piss on chairs, coolers, campers and even other people at trials.

 

And tents! There's not a whole lot you can do about the tent in a situation like that as there's rarely enough water available to give the tent a good wash down.

 

And then to have to sleep in it, especially if it's been a warm day. :huh:

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I, too, cannot stand the dogs that pee on everything you own while their owners look on. Dogs that pee on tires are the worst for me. I refuse to own such a dog. I'm guessing Donald is referring to leaving my dog intact. I've considered it and see nothing wrong with leaving him intact, it's just easier to tell myself and others that he'll be neutered once he's mature. Time will tell. At the rate he's going he's looking at getting those boys cut off sooner than later!

 

I totally agree that you can train a dog not to mark. I also don't struggle with stopping him when I get a fair enough warning (weight shift, sniffing, etc.) It's the times when I don't see any warning that I'm in a bind. There are times where he gets fed up enough after me thwarting his attempts a few times that he'll literally just start peeing while I'm dragging him along. I can ask for a sit right before he marks, but sometimes it's still too late and he'll pee (on himself) while sitting. And there are plenty of times where he'll be completely focused on a task (retrieving, recall, etc.)....until he's not. He goes from 100% engaged to hiking a leg on a random spot in the grass in less than a second, no exaggeration. He absolutely knows that marking is an unacceptable behavior, which is why he's gotten craftier about it. He figured out very quickly that I'd stop the behavior if he gave me any warnings.

 

Keeper already has a "go potty" word, and is very reliable. It's the stuff left over that gets us in trouble. He isn't the obnoxious kind that tries to drag me around sniffing everything. Is it appropriate to correct him while he's marking? Because I don't think I can do it any sooner. I've tried dragging him back to the car and ending play time whenever he looses attention during training/play time and chooses marking instead, but that doesn't seem to have worked. It also might be worth noting that Keeper is NOT one of the border collies whose world comes crashing down at the word "no". I can sharply correct him and the worst response I'll get is a bit of a whale eye. He'll quit what he's doing, but it's not at all intimidating to him. I don't think a correction while marking is negative enough to offset the positive reward he gives himself while marking.

 

Don't worry, I'm not one of those who tries to argue other people's advice. We've had more than enough of that recently. :) I'm just trying to give a better idea of what the problem is.

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All males go through this faze, or at least mine did. ;) Loki thought he had to pee on everything. One day he even looked me in the eye and then peed on agility equipment in the house. He got yelled at, tossed outside, and then had to wear a belly band the rest of the day. He tried it twice more that day, each time looking at me as if to ask, "is it this part or this part or this part you don't like?" Stubborn cuss got the point and now doesn't dare pee indoors, not even at the vet clinic I work at (trust me, a vet clinic is a giant potty to most dogs).

Loki still struggles at nosework in grass areas. He just gets a gentle ahh, and redirect back to his task. When he's done working though he happily hikes his leg on nearby bushes(outside the search area) with a mental sigh. ;) Just as pottying while working stock is inappropriate (unless you've been working a really, really long while and are desperate) so is pottying on an agility field or search area. Your pup will learn to differentiate with your help.

 

Really, dogs pee on people's tents? Isn't the owner humiliated and offering to pay for a new tent? :blink:

 

Bethany, Rose (leukopenic blind wonder dog), and Loki

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Yeah, been there done that (dog pee all over my tent on a hot day). I've also gone home with a cooler that stunk to high heaven of dog pee. It's so not ok.

 

With patience and persistence you can get a male dog past this phase and courteous about where he pees.

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I too hate people letting their males pee on everything . This year I bought a new tent for going to dog trials. I have to say that everyone at the trials I went to were very considerate of the tent and I went home with a clean tent. But there have been trials that I have had crates peed on, and have watched a few males pee on chairs and the owners are oblivious. No one wants to ride home with smelly equipment. Quinn is the first male I've had, he is 7 months now. During thanksgiving relatives brought their little mixed dog with them. Quinn decided he would be someone fun to play with and was being really good with the little guy. We were all talking in the living room watching the two play when Quinn decided to pee on the little dogs head. As soon as I realized what he was doing I roared at him, made it sound like the world was going to end. Needless to say he layed low for some time and decided that maybe peeing on other dogs wasn't such a good thing, especially in the house. Other than that, knock on wood, haven't had any other issues, but when summer comes and we start going to clinics and trials once he ready, you can bet I will be ready incase he decides to test the waters and spray someones belongings.

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I haven't tented anywhere for a while where it's been an issue, but I'm seriously considering getting some lightweight netting -- like bird netting or deer netting -- and some lightweight fiberglass posts like they use for driveway markers and setting up a little perimeter around the tent that's far enough away from the tent to keep dogs from peeing on it. It's a new one and I really don't care to have it christened.

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At 9 months his hormones are not steady and predictable like they will be as an adult. Plus he is an obnoxious teenager whose brain is affected by that stage in development.

 

My Papillon did that (you think a medium size dog can pee quick? How about one only 11 inches tall) for about 3 months at his age. Hell, he would just pee while walking. My solution was to teach him to pee on command so he would "empty the tank," limit leash walking some so he wouldn't walk where too many dogs had walked before (easier with a dog I could pick up) and make him wear a belly band indoors until that phase passed. Not sure those strategies will work for you, but...

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Tio is bloody TERRIBLE right now. I am happy that he is finally continent again but he sure is making up for lost time and things to pee on when out for walks. I've been giving him the benefit of the doubt with all the sniffing and peeing but now it's time to break him of it. He's going to be getting snipped in January. So, hopefully that and some training will get this under control.

 

As for netting idea. There's a little Gateball (like croquet) court in the park next to our house. It has a net around the perimeter which stands about 2 feet high. It is THE most attractive thing for Tio to go lay up against and ultimately pee on. He loves it.. weirdo dog.

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B Point, working sheep dogs know that netting is "hot" (will shock you if touched) so tend to avoid it pretty well. ^_^

Yup. Keeps your dogs in and other dogs out. And smart dogs don't pee on it, not twice, when it's hot, at home, so they tend not to do so when camping.

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  • 11 months later...

I thought I might bring up my old thread, just as an update.

 

It's now 11 months past my first post, and while things are significantly better, I'm pretty sure Keeper's days with his parts are numbered. At 20 months old I have no real (medical) reason to delay neutering. I'm going to give my reasons for neutering, and I'm curious to see if anyone has any thoughts.

 

1. He's a dick to other intact dogs. Pretty much instantly he gets hackle-y and growl-y and posture-y. He's never started a fight and I seriously doubt he would, but it's super annoying to have a Jackyl and Hyde male living in my house. I spent the evening at a friend's house, where they have an intact male border collie. I basically had to spend the whole time stopping one growling at the other. Which leads me to my next point.

 

2. Other dogs are a dick to him. It matters less about whether the other dogs are intact or not, but he just has a "kick me" sign on his back. He damn near got attacked by a dog at our last horse show, a dog who I've known for a number of years and it has never had any problems. The owners were shocked by the other dog's behavior, and he very seriously sought Keeper out a number of times to start a fight. This dog was neutered, so Keeper didn't have a single qualm about him. Funny how he'll get pissed at an intact dog for breathing his air, but a neutered dog about to chew him apart didn't bother him in he slightest.

 

3. The marking is still an issue. I have attacked this VERY seriously over the past year, with a good bit of success. In that time, I've observed him enough to see that he has two types of marking. He has the very conscious, walking to an object and leg lifting mark, and the....other kind. I have completely eliminated the first type of marking, or at least he only engages in this behavior on his free time. The second king is different. I can't say it's out of his control, but I think it's a very hormonally charged activity. It's the same type we really struggled with before, where he marks while walking. He'll be on leash, walking confidently and is all of a sudden waddling and peeing. It has nothing to do with a vertical surface, and often times comes without even a single sniff. I've corrected him so harshly for this that I often times don't even realized he's peed until he bolts away from me and I turn around to find the tell tale zig zags on the pavement. I don't think I'm anthropomorphosising him when I say he honestly doesn't mean to mark in this way. I was pissed at him for the first few months, but the look on his face after it happens tells me that he's pretty shocked about the whole situation. I don't believe it's a conscious decision to mark in this way.

 

3a. This type of marking was only a touch inconvenient before. It's not accompanied with leg lifting, and is never an attempt to mark items. It wasn't like he'd go up and pee on people's hay, he'd just be walking down an aisle and would suddenly be waddling. But we've begun to very seriously go the service dog route. Obviously, the stakes just got much higher, he cannot ever, not once, mark or eliminate inappropriately in any way. I feel very strongly about service dogs, and I will never bring him in public until I'm confident that he'll be an ambassador. So, until I get this under control, he cannot progress in this area. He is 97% finished. He has perfect public access manners, he tucks under tables, he alerts reliably and performs his tasks in public, he focuses and ignores people and dogs. But then he pee waddles.

 

4. He loses focus around the scent of females, I'm assuming ones in heat. He never struggles on leash, but when off leash he'll randomly drop anything he was doing to sniff and chatter over some scent. He's very serious around females in heat, and his priorities are crystal clear. (Hint, I'm not one of them.)

 

5. We're welcoming a new puppy to the family. It more than likely will be a male, but a female isn't out of the question. If a male, it will be left intact until at least 18 months of age. The last thing needed is a hormonally charged teenager fighting with a hormonally charged adult with a history of issues with intact males.

 

6. I'm sick and tired of being asked to breed to him. Ok, this one isn't a factor. :) But it's incredibly annoying when he gets propositioned every time we go out!

 

I think he has a very high level of testosterone. He was reliably lifting his leg by 4 months old. I absolutely know that he has some habits that I'll continue to address, but I think there's a strong hormonal element causing some behaviors in him, and other dogs. I really didn't want to neuter him, but I think I've come to the decision that it's best for him. I think he'll be more comfortable with that sexual drive having been eliminated.

 

I recently started him on stock, and the trainer thinks he's really pretty cool. He's a touch sticky after being hollered at to leave the cattle/horses/donkey alone, but he's rapidly overcoming that. The trainer likes him quite a bit, and thinks he could be quite useful after just a little bit of time. Her husband does cowhorses, I think they'd be delighted if I brought my derby and bridle horses and my dog down for a couple months. :) She trials and is pretty blunt, so I don't think she's blowing sunshine. I don't ever expect to trial with him, or really use him, but if neutering him would affect him in this area it would be something to consider.

 

I'm curious if anyone has any other imput. I think I'm on the right track, but I'd like to know if anyone thinks I'm way out of whack.

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My input, FWIW,

1. Piddling randomly while walking is NOT normal IMO and I wouldn't even refer to it as marking. I've never known a male, beyond a little puppy, to do that.I'd have him checked for a physical issue if you haven't already. Of course with the "coming down heavy on him" over it thing you've probably added another element to it that might be difficult to overcome at this point. You could always try something like a belly band or, if you haven't already, train him to go on command and only on command (because then presumably if you haven't told him "go potty" or whatever then he should just hold it). I think I'd re-examine how this might have started in the first place (for example, did he have to pee and you insisted he keep walking so he started peeing while walking?). Figuring out a root cause could go a long way toward coming up with a solution.

 

2. Neutering him will not necessarily change leg lifting behavior, nor will it necessarily change his interest in females. My 9 1/2 year old male (neutered at 2 or a little after) will tie with females in heat. He knows they're in heat and he'll do something about it given the opportunity. He will lick pee and chatter his teeth. My 9 month old (intact) doesn't really know what it's all about, but he was certainly aware when Lark was in heat last month. The point being that neutering may not change any of these behaviors. What it will do is prevent him from accidentally siring a litter, and he may focus more on work when a bitch in heat is around, but there are no real guarantees that neutering will change certain male behaviors.

 

3. Almost all adolescent males go through a "kick me" phase, of variable duration. Other males, intact or neutered, recognize a young male coming into his own and they often will choose that time to make a point about who is dominant. The older dog I mentioned above went through that when he was a youngster. He could just be minding his own business at a sheepdog trial and males would go out of their way to be ugly to him. Biologically, a young intact male is the COMPETITION, and older dogs are generally inclined to let put them in their place BEFORE they have a chance to think about challenging the older guys. Normal behavior among all concerned. Neutering him may make him less likely to be the victim of this, or it may not.

 

I hope that helps.

 

J.

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