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I didn't think 9 year old Quinn was especially sound sensitive, but this past week he has been reacting to very soft, little, intermittent beeps from a smoke detector. He isn't a wreck, but the sound obviously bothers him while I am trying to figure out a fix to the issue.

 

And not to pile on, but I also find it troubling that the breeder is yelling/screaming to the point of causing a dog to pee in fear. I would be appalled to see my dog react that way to something I was doing. It isn't good for kids either. :(

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This seems yet another thread where the questioner doesn't like the consistent responses they are getting.

So don't be offended if people give you an opinion that is not what you want to hear (especially when you asked for it). Just know that people are coming from a good place and trying to be an advocate for this breed.

Along with so much good advice given by people who know these dogs and so many thoughtful questions asked by responders, this seems sadly like so many other topics raised by people new to Border Collies. The people here are "nice" and "kind" if they agree with the person beginning the topic, and "rude" and "mean-spirited" if they don't (words used before and, I'm sure, again in the future).

 

The people here, in reality, have varying levels of experience but many who reply have a number of years of experience with a variety of dogs, particularly Border Collies but also some "other" dogs. They have the welfare of the dogs at heart, and also the desire to see not only the dog in a good place but also the handler doing well with the dog.

 

I am grateful for people who try to share their experience and expertise *honestly* because anything else would be a disservice to all concerned.

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Julie, I'm the one who talked about the 2 hours of frisbee/outside time, and don't worry it's not even close to all running! It's something like an hour and a half of sitting in the sun together doing homework, 15 minutes of meandering though the fields, and fifteen minutes of occasional dog play with 5 or 6 rolled frisbees. I would never ask a young dog to be running constantly for such a long time. Those 2 hours are just outdoor bonding time!

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Julie, I'm the one who talked about the 2 hours of frisbee/outside time, and don't worry it's not even close to all running! It's something like an hour and a half of sitting in the sun together doing homework, 15 minutes of meandering though the fields, and fifteen minutes of occasional dog play with 5 or 6 rolled frisbees. I would never ask a young dog to be running constantly for such a long time. Those 2 hours are just outdoor bonding time!

I'm sure more than just Julie are breathing a sigh of relief that you've cleared that up! Sounds good to me.
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On the topic of how Border collies can react to chastisement: I ran into the former owner/trainer of one of my dogs at a sheepdog trial this past weekend (he was judging). It's clear he loves Spain as much as she loves him. And he's well known for being someone who is good to his dogs.

 

He told everyone in hearing how he'd almost ruined her when he had her: they were penning at a trial, and she went into the pen and busted up the sheep, and he scolded her. "Fine," she as much as said, "I won't pen for you any more". It was MONTHS before she'd try it, and she can still be a bit "sticky" at the pen. And this was from scolding her once - not scruffing and dragging and shouting. They're quirky dogs.

 

And it's not just the "softer" dogs who can be sensitive. One of my other three dogs has plenty of confidence. But if he hears a chain saw... he's trying to climb in my lap. Lord knows why a chain saw sets him off, but it does. I can ASSURE you that no one has ever attacked him with one.

 

A lot of how "hyper" any dog will be depends on how it was raised (are you setting limits?) and on the parents' temperaments. I think working *bred* Border collies are much more mellow than many of the "sporter" collies I've met. I don't know how much of this is nature vs. nurture (is it all in the breeding? or could some of it be that clueless owners buy BYB or "sporter" collies, not knowing they're not the "real deal", and - being clueless - also don't really know how to raise a pup appropriately). I'll echo what others have said: there's a world of difference between "working lines" and "working bred". ALL Border collies are from "working lines", but if someone is advertising them in that manner, they are probably selling you a load of BS.

 

I think it's important for people to be honest with themselves in deciding whether a Border collie is right for them. I've had Border collies most of my life (well, for close to 35 years of it), and I can't imagine living with any other breed. It's not whether prospective owners have time for a ton of exercise (my three are lounging around my office, snoozing, as I type - I'm hoping to take them for a hike tomorrow, but today their only exercise will be to run around our fenced back yard when we get home). It's more whether YOU are prepared to learn how to relate to a highly intelligent breed of dog that most wants to interact with you - but who may also come with a whole basket of quirks.

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Based on the OP's description, he may be happier with a GSD or a Malinois. I would contact a Schutzhund club for potential breeders.

 

Something that has not been addressed here...I am on my third agility dog, my second Border Collie and my first really fast high drive Border Collie. My guy is 2.5 years old now and has been relatively easy to train for agility, has all the desire in the world, and had a maturity beyond his years when we started trialing when he was about 21 months old.

 

BUT, he is hardly a qualifying machine and I am sure that it is largely my fault. Going from a relatively slow dog to a fast driven dog is a huge leap and there are significant timing issues. Also, novice/starter courses have become very technical in the 2-3 years since I ran my slow poke Border Collie and jamming a fast dog with a very long stride into a 14-18 foot space is really really hard. The learning curve for the handler is very steep and combined with an inexperienced dog...it is not easy. IT IS NOT EASY. Under these circumstances (and I got very lucky in this regard), I think that it is really important to have a dog that does not hold your mistakes against you and that does not turn into a spinning, biting lunatic when you can't give it information fast enough, because it is going to happen A LOT in the beginning. You are going to get frustrated because if this is your first fast dog, your qualifying rate will likely suck in the beggining, but it is really really important to not get frustrated with your dog because it is your fault. Yelling and expressing diapointment will make things much worse because these dogs are very sensitive even if they are not "soft".

 

Believe me, running a Border Collie in agility is NOT easy and I think that most Border Collie owners would agree.

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A bit off topic (but it does mesh with the "I want a border collie for high-level agility' theme): I agree with Blackdawgs above. I had wanted a border collie for over 25 years, but never had the lifestyle to do well by a border collie. By the time I did, I had heard about and seen agility and wanted to get involved. My FIRST border collie is a Ferrari. And I was just learning to drive. Predictable results - crash and burn on the course. But I never (or almost never) gave him negative reinforcement or punishment while training for agility or running the course. After all, I truly believe most of his 'mistakes' are my fault. I am lucky (either through his innate personality or my early positive training) that he does not 'hold my mistakes against me' as put so well by Blackdawgs. If my timing is late [very, very frequently], he just goes ahead and decides which obstacle(s) is next. After all, he is out there to run the course, and if I don't do my job (let him know early enough where the course is), then he has to make a decision. A very honest dog.

 

My Q rate in the beginning was probably in the single digits, but we have improved slightly. I don't focus on Qs. (Having said that, he is great on FAST courses which allow little bobbles. We are never going to be perfect.) I am thrilled with his performance on any part of the course when we are meshed together. What a great feeling.

 

And yes, running a high-drive border collie - I don't have anyone asking me if they could experience running a fast dog.- which I would let them try. [Actually, my agility trainer tried running my dog once when I was being thick-headed about a maneuver. She thought that she could show me better than trying to explain. Ummm, no.] I think they are scared, very scared. :P

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You make me chuckle inside - my friend had an Aussie (working lines) and I had Celt, and we both went to lessons together. One day, when we were both doing some sheep time, I suggested she try handling Celt. After a few minutes, she was exhausted - she said handling Celt, compared to her dog, was like driving a sports car instead of a truck!

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Being a first time border collie owner. My experience with a BC is they are a unique breed with many faces. I can tell you they bond quickly and deeply with you. They will become obsessed with you. You are everything to them. They are at times overwhelming. They do need your time. First thing she does is lick our faces at the crack of dawn. Then she watches out the window keeping guard of the neighbors and the school bus. when things settle down she is dragging me out of bed to go outside. I play soccer and Frisbee for an hour every morning. (yes they will whip you into shape). When we come in she has her crazy hour (don't ask it can be intense). Usually after that she is good till about 3 then its a repeat. and then at 8 its a quick out because she is afraid of the dark. She does nip drag you and anything she can to get your attention. So I just pick her up and give her some loving when she gets that way because she does not respond well to discipline. House breaking has been perplexing. But never will you have a companion that will love you as much as a border collie. They are busy can be destructive and irritating at times. So get a crate for those times. When you see the loving look from a border collie you will understand. Patience Patience Patience. They are amazing.

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My Border Collie is my first. She is quiet in the house, patient for waiting for her training/ play times, and was a breeze to housebreak. She is obedient, but has a sense of humor. She sleeps all night and never pesters me until I show signs of being ready to interact. But when it's time to play, it's 0 to 60 in 0.8 seconds. She plays hard and plays to win.

 

Extremely observant, reserved with strangers but quite demonstrative with those she knows and likes - indifferent to those she knows and doesn't much like. Easy keeper, takes corrections well as long as you don't try to intimidate her. She never forgets a bad experience, yet doesn't hold them against me as long as I make sure she knows it was and accident. She is deeply suspicious of bums, motorcycles, retrievers and huskies. She is apt to give tit for tat from other dogs and will stand no nonsense from those she doesn't know. She once picked up a minute Jack Russell Terrier and shook him like a rat. (I corrected her, but was secretly delighted as he was an insufferable little snot and barked constantly.)

 

Medium coat with little undercoat, so grooming is a snap. Cuddly when I'm sad or sick, but her own dog most of the time. In short, she's the best dog I ever had. And only one of dozens of types, personalities and temperaments in the breed.

 

This is one character sketch. Several others have been presented. Print out the one you like best and take it to a breeder of working Border Collies. Let him or her help guide you to the best match. Forget about what it looks like. If it's a good match, it will quickly seem like the most beautiful creature on four legs.

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People's comments make something certain - that while these dogs, as a breed, share some common characteristics, they are also individuals with their own unique personalities and quirks.

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Being a first time border collie owner. My experience with a BC is they are a unique breed with many faces. I can tell you they bond quickly and deeply with you. They will become obsessed with you. You are everything to them. They are at times overwhelming. They do need your time. First thing she does is lick our faces at the crack of dawn. Then she watches out the window keeping guard of the neighbors and the school bus. when things settle down she is dragging me out of bed to go outside. I play soccer and Frisbee for an hour every morning. (yes they will whip you into shape). When we come in she has her crazy hour (don't ask it can be intense). Usually after that she is good till about 3 then its a repeat. and then at 8 its a quick out because she is afraid of the dark. She does nip drag you and anything she can to get your attention. So I just pick her up and give her some loving when she gets that way because she does not respond well to discipline. House breaking has been perplexing. But never will you have a companion that will love you as much as a border collie. They are busy can be destructive and irritating at times. So get a crate for those times. When you see the loving look from a border collie you will understand. Patience Patience Patience. They are amazing.

 

Amen...brotha... Best post yet. Very, very similar to me and bud, Tio.

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I treat my Border Collies and LGD the same way I would want to be treated. (or any of the animals on the farm)

 

Where I used to go herding, I was taught to be loud and yell at the dogs. To use a long pvc pipe and hit them on the head. Anyways I saw the light and changed 180% and luckily the dog that had the training was able to handle it as she was a tough Border Collie from cattledog lines. Nothing fazed her. That was many years ago.

 

Yelling/screaming/mishandling at the Border Collie does nothing for the dog but sure makes you look like a fool.

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Patience Patience Patience. They are amazing.

I am a first time Border Collie owner and I completely agree.

 

As far as Border Collies and their sensitivity to noises. One evening over the summer I was outside with my husband and my GSD and my BC. At the time we were watching an Australian Shepherd for a friend and she was inside the house. My house backs up to the desert and there was a loud sound of an explosion. The poor Aussie was a nervous wreck. I had to put her in her thunder coat and put her in a crate covered with a blanket for the night. My BC ran to the door and wanted to go into the house. At bedtime I had to use a lot of encouragement and yummy treats to get her to go out for her last potty break. My GSD didn't pay much attention to the noise at all and remained outside with us. In fact, if you didn't know better it would be easy to assume that my GSD has problems hearing. He doesn't respond to sonic booms, fireworks, or thunder.

 

And as far as soft/hard dogs are concerned. I once had a conversation with another dog owner about training a soft v. hard dog. My GSD was next to me and I reached down and grabbed the scruff of his neck and shook it firmly. My GSD's response...he moved closer to me to get a back scratch. I would never do the same to my Border Collie.

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My GSD was next to me and I reached down and grabbed the scruff of his neck and shook it firmly. My GSD's response...he moved closer to me to get a back scratch. I would never do the same to my Border Collie.

 

God, this. My GSD mutt's favorite form of affection is to be beaten up. I mean not literally but he LIKES being shoved around and lightly smacked and wags his tail and bounces all over the place in response to yelling - even if HE is who is being yelled at. He really, really enjoys that kind of intensity. I could also whack that dog over the head with a 2X4 and he'd probably wag his tail and try to chew on it.

 

Molly doesn't mind the odd bit of physical play - being lightly pushed back/away is something she recognizes as a fun game, but that's really as far as it goes, and it's really got to be obviously FUN, with no frustration or anger.

 

To be fair here, she's not the softest of my dogs and I'd actually consider her pretty balanced. Jack (the RT) can't even handle no reward markers very well and Kylie (little mutt) deflates pretty quickly in a training session if she gets it wrong too long -or, with shaping, if she's not getting it right fast enough. Kylie also requires lots of cheer-leading in some situations or she droops and goes flat. Molly can handle a 'nope' or a "HEY!" without turning into a puddle, and she can work on something a lot longer without getting discouraged.

 

Really, it's pretty much a mood thing with her and I mean mine. I probably COULD grab her by the neck and shake if we were playing, and then toss her back and dance away from her and she'd come back for more. If I did that while yelling, though, or seeming angry or upset -even if not at her -she'd absolutely hit the ground and pee herself.

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My husband and I live in a two bedroom townhouse with no yard whatsoever. Our pup is 6 months old so she has lots of energy. She goes out in the morning before we leave for work, spends ~8 hours in her (admittedly very large) crate and our evening is pretty normal and quiet. She goes out again after work and gets about a 10-15 min walk, gets about 10-15 minutes of rough play in the house before we start our own routine. Then she just joins us with whatever we're doing - if we go somewhere that allows dogs, we take her along because she's excellently behaved.

 

We love playing with her in the house because we get to see a lot of natural agility - she jumps through chair legs, turns on a dime to chase her toys, leaps on and off the couch, etc. When it's nice out, we take her out on a 30 ft lead that we let trail on the ground (to step on it just in case) and throw tennis balls. We also let her run free in the tennis courts nearby - it's technically not allowed, but nobody's objected yet! We also schedule a lot of "play dates" with other dogs because she loves playing with them.

 

We have a tight schedule but Callie appears to be happy, the vet confirms she's very healthy, and she's a social little thing that enjoys people and other animals. We try to give her as much of our time and attention as we reasonably can.

 

And when all else fails and she's got more energy to burn, a laser pointer is the best toy ever (just be super careful to avoid shining it in your pup's eyes).

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Laser pointers and border collies are a really, really horrible idea. It's a great way to develop a pup who is obsessed (in the OCD, clinical, needs medication, that borders are inclined toward way) with finding the light and chasing reflections and glimmers of light everywhere.

 

My girl's about 6 months old. She honestly probably gets a 2 hours a day of exercise and training, but not all in one go. 20 minutes here and there, maybe half an hour. And that's including the mental stuff. Rest of the time she just tools around the house with me.


And at this point goes to bed after her morning potty trip and sleeps until noon, which I REALLY appreciate.

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And when all else fails and she's got more energy to burn, a laser pointer is the best toy ever

 

You might want to rethink this. I've seen way too many border collies who are total OCD messes, obsessed with any shadow or flicker of light to the point that their lives (and their owners') were completely miserable. And it can set off a cascade of other obsessions totally unrelated to light or movement.

 

These dogs often get relinquished to rescue because their owners just can't deal with it any more and they usually have to be medicated and extensively rehabbed.

 

It doesn't happen to every dog that plays with a laser pointer, but it happens to far too many of them.

 

A friend got one out during our therapy dog library visit. I told her in no uncertain terms not to use it anywhere near my dog and I immediately left the vicinity. I looked back to see another friend's English shepherd obsessing over it as her owner was frantically trying to pull her away. She was a dog who'd already been exposed to laser pointers and had gone to the dark side.

 

This is not something I'd risk using around my dogs in a million years. :o

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I'll keep an eye on her to see if she gets obsessive at any point, but I think she'll be okay. She comes running when she sees it come out, but doesn't fuss when it's put away. She's also not a full BC - there's some Yellow lab in there, plus maybe some Husky. Seems like the mix in her mitigates some of the purely BC tendencies like chasing and obsession.

 

Now the sock thievery might get her turned into a winter clothing item...Kidding of course, she's our favorite beastie no matter what.

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I'll keep an eye on her to see if she gets obsessive at any point, but I think she'll be okay.

 

The point is that it's irresponsible to suggest that laser pointers should be used to play with herding breeds, especially border collies, who have too much of a tendency towards OCD behaviors.

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Hello everyone,


I would like to add my thoughts regarding using a laser pointer (or flashlight) as a toy for a Border Collie (or any dog for that matter). Years ago, a dog was relinquished by its owner to my Border Collie Rescue organization, a dog that had become obsessed with a flashlight beam (this was before there were laser pointers). His owner had first taught the dog to chase the flashlight beam on the floor, which escalated to the dog leaping into the air then pouncing on the beam head first. The dog had become so obsessed with the game that he was making life miserable for his owner (and himself). So, the dog came to me, and it took a long time to get him to get beyond his obsession with flashlight beams (otherwise, he was a very nice dog). In time, he was adopted by a wonderful young couple. I shared the dog's history with his adopters and sternly cautioned them to NEVER, EVER play the flashlight game with him. A few weeks later, I contacted the adopters (as a follow up to the adoption), and the adopter started crying when I asked how the dog was doing. She told me that they had company one evening, and they had shared the story of the dog's obsession with flashlights with their guests. One guest thought it would be great to see the dog pounce on the beam, so he took the dog outside on the concrete patio to "play" (without the owners' permission). The guest got the dog engaged with the beam of a small flashlight on his key chain, and when the dog leapt into the air and came down face first onto the concrete, he broke several of his incisors and two of his canine teeth. I would imagine that particular guest was never invited back, but he did pay the vet bills for the dog's injuries. The adopter was so apologetic and so sorry that they had inadvertently caused the dog to be injured by sharing his history with their guests. So, please reconsider using a laser pointer or flashlight as a game for your dogs. It's simply not worth the risk of injury to their bodies and/or their minds.


Regards,

nancy
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At six months old you're not going to see quite the same level of intensity or obsession.


By the time you see signs of it, it's too late.


Stop. Play ball. Play with a flirt pole. Teach the dog tricks. There are safe ways to exercise your dog that do not have the risks of the laser pointer - but do have all of the benefits.

 

Continuing to do so after knowing the risks is pure irresponsibility and disregard for your dogs well being. Not okay.

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Another foster dog horror story, we had a young 12-18 month old foster, she was a nice girl, quirky but nothing unmanageable. Due to the death of one her adopters she came back to rescue 3 years later as the wife could not cope with her. She has never been re-adopted (she lives with the rescue founder) as she is nuts and it is going to take a very patient person to bring her back... Any motion sets her off, cars going by, flickering light, she is impossible in the car, wanted to kill the TV, and it all started with laser pointer games!

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