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Genetics and the popular sire

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Speaking for myself only, I wouldn't really care if a pup were registered, as long as the breeding pair represented what I was looking for in a working dog.

 

Also, I don't know what ISDS rules are regarding who can be a member, but USBCHA allows membership only to people who are actively trialing. So, although I have been a member of USBCHA in the past, I am not now a member because I had a 4-year hiatus from trialing and so could not renew my membership. I recently ran in an open trial and on the basis of that trial can now rejoin the USBCHA.

 

So although there may be only 1,000 USBCHA members, there are probably some percentage in addition to that who aren't members simply because they haven't trialed recently but who might still breed (or not).

 

J.

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The ABCA does indeed allow international registration. I've seen ABCA registered pups in many South American countries, Australia, Europe and the UK. The ISDS allows registration of pups with ABCA registered parents as long as both dogs are owned by ISDS members.

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Debbie,

I think many other European countries have just one registry and people who want to register their litters are required to use that registry (that's why many ISDS dogs are dual registered, so that those exported outside of the UK into other European countries will be registerable in the country they're exported to).

 

J.

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You can be a member without ever having anything to do with the trial field but can only vote if you have run a dog in a sanctioned Open or Nursery class within the previous two years. I am a member but not eligible to vote and have never been eligible to vote as I've never met the requirement.

 

Speaking for myself only, I wouldn't really care if a pup were registered, as long as the breeding pair represented what I was looking for in a working dog.

 

Also, I don't know what ISDS rules are regarding who can be a member, but USBCHA allows membership only to people who are actively trialing. So, although I have been a member of USBCHA in the past, I am not now a member because I had a 4-year hiatus from trialing and so could not renew my membership. I recently ran in an open trial and on the basis of that trial can now rejoin the USBCHA.

 

So although there may be only 1,000 USBCHA members, there are probably some percentage in addition to that who aren't members simply because they haven't trialed recently but who might still breed (or not).

 

J.

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I think there are people who only bother with membership when they are either eligible to vote and/or running in Open or Nursery and want points/legs.

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This is the case in a number of European countries.

 

Debbie,

I think many other European countries have just one registry and people who want to register their litters are required to use that registry (that's why many ISDS dogs are dual registered, so that those exported outside of the UK into other European countries will be registerable in the country they're exported to).

 

J.

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In regard to the USBCHA membership, should have no issue being a associate member also could join as a lifetime member, we should have done that 5 years ago, would have it 1/2 way paid for by now.

 

Anyway, I was just chatting with a USBCHA director about using the Paw Print Genetics discount as a means to promote more associate memberships with USBCHA, good way to generate more association revenue without incurring expense while giving those who join a benefit. This would also increase the footprint of USBCHA with the company offering the discount to members.

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That makes sense Debbie. Honestly, I didn't rejoin when I wasn't running a dog because there was no real benefit to doing so (that is, if I can't vote and don't need points recorded for finals, then what's the point, really?). Then again, I guess one could argue that supporting the HA is a worthy cause all on its own.

 

And since we were talking about registrations, I imagine there are plenty of folks who aren't ABCA members unless they plan on having and registering a litter.

 

J.

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I imagine there are plenty of folks who aren't ABCA members unless they plan on having and registering a litter.

Yup, would imagine there are lots. Though it seems that a fair number of lifetime memberships are paid each year, something else we just need to pony up on and be done with this annual deal. Looks like about 130 lifetimes in 2013 to 1625 (give or take) annual memberships that same year. Don't both sire and dam owners need a membership though? Which would indicate quite a bit more memberships paid compared to litters registered.

 

Would be interesting to know how many litters were registered by how many different members each year, would give us a bit of a idea as to the diversity, also a state or region breakdown. Though I think we can get a idea of state breakdown by reviewing the promotional money available in each state.

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Like Julie, I don't care about whether a pup is registered or not. Assuming I was getting a working rather than sport or conformation bred pup, the only reason I would need an ISDS registered pup would be if we wanted to qualify it for the FCI Agility World Championships which is pretty unlikely and something that would go against the grain.

 

As it happens my pup is ISDS registered and will be KC registered as a BC too, which isn't a big deal here, but if he had no papers he could still be registered with the KC as a working sheepdog and that would serve our purpose. It was easier for an outsider to find more background information on a registered litter, that's all. I don't brag about it or his sire's trialling success - irrelevant to me as I have no intention of putting him to stud.

 

Registration with the UK KC is not the equivalent of AKC registration and is irrelevant to the working world. Any dog can compete in KC sports like agility on an equal footing whether pedigree or not. Our KC isn't protectionist in that way and there are no second class citizens.

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Along with genetic problems that may arise when everyone starts breeding to what's popular, how many of the "popular" dogs at the moment, go on to produce top winning(on trial field) offspring?

Are some of the top winning dogs kind of a one hit wonder and don't pass that on to offspring?

To me instead of jumping on the bandwagon of who is popular, I would think a person would look at the strenghts/weakenesses of a sire and bitch and use that to better the chance of producing offspring that will excel at stockwork.

 

 

Samantha

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I have two points to add for interest.

 

What's recorded on the pedigrees and used for the UK database may not actually represent the true parentage. Sorry, but true. In one of my late dog's pedigrees there were three wrong UK sires listed that I know of. It happens here too. AKC once did a study of pedigrees versus the true parentage and found a shocking percentage of inaccuracies.

 

It doesn't matter if a dog was a popular sire (WRT passing on genetic disease through later line breeding) if no one breeds from the offspring. Sometimes that happens.

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I suspect that there would be a fair number of unhappy people if parentage testing was ever to be mandated.

 

So many seem to trust the papers and extended pedigrees, I think they are putting a awful lot of faith into the unknown. Don't know that it happens near as much as it once did, but at one time it was pretty common for people to slap papers on unregistered animals that looked purebred. We saw it quite a bit with the horses, horse traders would have brief cases full of extra registration papers swapping them around as needed. Maybe taking a set of papers off a poor horse that wasn't worth much and putting them on a better quality grade horse resulting in more money paid by the buyer.

 

DNA parentage testing put a halt to all that, though a few high profile breeders/trainers found themselves in a bit of a bind when the horse they were campaigning and standing didn't have the right dna profile, likely they were unaware, got had by someone else or maybe the sins of their fathers caught up with them.

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"What's recorded on the pedigrees and used for the UK database may not actually represent the true parentage. Sorry, but true. In one of my late dog's pedigrees there were three wrong UK sires listed that I know of. It happens here too. AKC once did a study of pedigrees versus the true parentage and found a shocking percentage of inaccuracies."

 

Denise, how did you find out about these inaccuracies?

 

Were they clerical errors or people lying in order to make the dogs' pedigrees look more impressive?

 

I recently saw a discussion on a FB page for Border Collie pedigrees in which one breeder was outed for putting down the wrong sire for a litter. An unwanted stud bred the bitch through the fence. The desired stud was DNA N/N for CL while the real sire was a carrier. The dam was DNA N/N. Offspring of the litter produced affected pups. That is how the pedigree inaccuracy was discovered.

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What's recorded on the pedigrees and used for the UK database may not actually represent the true parentage. Sorry, but true. In one of my late dog's pedigrees there were three wrong UK sires listed that I know of. It happens here too. AKC once did a study of pedigrees versus the true parentage and found a shocking percentage of inaccuracies.

I've heard this too. Apparently, that's one of the reasons why the ISDS doesn't accept 'clear by parentage' for CEA.

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"What's recorded on the pedigrees and used for the UK database may not actually represent the true parentage. Sorry, but true. In one of my late dog's pedigrees there were three wrong UK sires listed that I know of. It happens here too. AKC once did a study of pedigrees versus the true parentage and found a shocking percentage of inaccuracies."

 

Denise, how did you find out about these inaccuracies?

 

Were they clerical errors or people lying in order to make the dogs' pedigrees look more impressive?

 

I've been in this a long time. I hear things and I know some things for sure. For example, in one case, a famous sire was tri. The dog's son off him was black and white. This black and white dog, also famous, was used *a lot* at stud. He never produced even one tri pup, not even when bred to tri bitches. When a dog sires 100 or 100s of pups, it starts to be outside the realm of genetic possibility that he is carrying the tri gene, which is recessive.

 

Other times, pedigree "inaccuracies" in the past are common knowledge overseas, even though no one will repeat them in writing. I've also heard that it's common practice overseas, or at least it used to be, to line a bitch with two studs just to make sure they catch. No big deal. One can only hear these things so many times before they start to seem like more than rumor. Not to piss anyone off, but it is what it is.

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I heard of a handler who lets his males and females run loose..one of the males was a well know trial dog and well bred so when any of the bitches got pg, he was listed as the sire....rumor had it some of the pups were not "similar" to the sire and no testing was ever done. The male is long gone now......

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Understood about the color, though I do think recessive black may have been found in Border Collies. Were you suspicious about the wrong sire being listed before realizing the colors didn't quite add up?

 

I saw a case of a merle dog with no merle ancestors for at least 3 generations (photos were available). Not likely for merle to stay cryptic for that many generations.

 

I've heard stories about multiple studs being used as well. I even knew someone who got caught when the colors didn't make sense. The owner of the desired stud refused to sign the ABCA papers.

 

Does anyone keep records of these "commonly known" dogs?

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I also know first hand of well known breeder/trialer who falsified at least one litter's paper. At the time the litter was born he told us he didn't even know the bitch had been in heat.

 

Later, after he'd registered the litter he said he was able to count back and knew which of his males was loose at the time. Also said he'd never said anything about not knowing the bitch was in heat or that he'd had questions about the parentage.

 

Sorry, but knowing his set up, I didn't buy that for a hot second.

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Well, the words "holy sh*t" came out of my mouth when Tess had a couple of red pups. I had no idea red was in her lines.....but upon research, I found out her sire was red. I was told her was b/w. Then her sire of the pups carried red as we found out. There was no question that he was the sire but the colors sure got me by surprise! I did bred her to a b/w male and all of those pups were b/w as he was not a red color carrier.

 

as for the guy counting back the 63 days (I assume he did that)..we all know the bitches all deliver on ay 63, right? Never early or late!

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I can't remember what I did yesterday. I certainly don't know who my dog was around 63 days ago. And if he never even knew she was in heat then I bet he certainly didn't know who she was with either.

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No, he couldn't have known for sure which dog she'd been around on the day she was bred. He often had several dogs of mixed sexes out at a time, his dogs were tied in individual stalls but not secure from other dogs coming into them, and obviously not all of them were in direct eye contact all of the time.

 

And it was interesting to note that the dog he decided it had to have been was his most popular stud dog at the time. :rolleyes: I'd forgotten that little tidbit until just now (it was about 30 years ago).

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It's disturbing to learn about some of the dishonest practices some people have done.

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Could DNA testing be done to discern parentage if 2 sires were known to have mated with the same bitch?

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