SoHo Posted November 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 After that session, I had a quick mini lesson. I couldn't film it since I was handler this time and it was just me and my dog in there. We just practiced moving the sheep from one corner to another with her on a short lead close to me, using the Away to Me and Come By commands as we moved. It was just to get us both familiar with reading the sheep and where their "pressure bubble" is. I would down her once we got to the edge of that bubble the first few times and let her try to figure it out for herself after a few tries. She definitely had a more serious working attitude doing then. She did the low, crouching movement we're all familiar with instead of the excited tail wagging play behavior. It was a lot of fun. I think I'd rather do shepherding over agility or another dog sport even though both are closer to me and cheaper. Seems like it will hold my interest longer. I'll schedule a true lesson soon and try to film some of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxi Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 She definitely had a more serious working attitude doing then. She did the low, crouching movement we're all familiar with instead of the excited tail wagging play behavior. It was a lot of fun. I think I'd rather do shepherding over agility or another dog sport even though both are closer to me and cheaper. Seems like it will hold my interest longer. ..yep stockwork is kinda addictive. Sounds also as if Ruby is also starting to think about what she is doing. IME a dog often needs a few days away from stock to consider what is required from him/her (sort of equivalent to us 'sleeping on it') Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 would love to see a new video.....soon you will move out to the farm and get some sheep......it has happened to a lot of us.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoHo Posted November 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2014 Hopefully I'll be able to schedule something this weekend. It won't be at same place. They want $130 or $150 a lesson and that makes this hobby too expensive for me to pursue. However, there is another trainer, the highest rated trainer in AZ I'm told who pretty close to where this other farm is located, and they only charge $40 per lesson. That makes it feasible. I'm excited to get a full-on lesson, especially from someone that trains and works BC's exclusively. The other trainer owns Aussie's and does more of the AKC type trialing. I'm really interested in finding out things about my dog that I have been wondering about for awhile, like is she soft or hard? Powerful or weak? Since she's my first BC and I have no experience herding livestock, all I could do was speculate. My feeling is that she's a soft dog, though she can withstand a lot of pressure and corrections (even sharp ones) without it bothering her if she's in 'work mode.' Based on her personality (submissive and non confrontational), I think it more likely that she'll be a weaker dog. I have a hard time picturing her grabbing a nose of a belligerent sheep who challenges her. Hopefully I won't have to speculate much longer. I'll try to film what I can and post it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 27, 2014 Report Share Posted November 27, 2014 That sounds great! $130-150 per lesson? I never heard of anything like that. A clinic with a top clinician runs around $100 per day for two to three days (in my experience). Granted, at a clinic, you and your dog only actually work several times a day for a short period of time, but you are getting instruction all day long as you watch others work and get to ask questions. $40 a lesson (half-hour to hour) is more normal in my experience. And most people I know would recommend someone who works either exclusively with Border Collies or, at the very least, is most focused on Border Collies - and, of course, not AKC. Enjoy! Learn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludi Posted November 27, 2014 Report Share Posted November 27, 2014 40 USD is very reasonable. Where I go for structured lessons is 25 € for 10 AM - 2 PM, usually the dogs work sheep 3-4x depending on natural ability and stamina. I think it's very reasonable. I am not yet at the level where I could justify paying out the nose for a clinic from a "big name" just yet. Take your time and enjoy this period of discovering stock work with your dog. It is magical to see them come alive and do what nature designed. I hope you have a lovely time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 27, 2014 Report Share Posted November 27, 2014 I'm glad you found someone charging a reasonable fee. Definitely stay away from the AKC herding types. To echo Sue's comments about fees, I have paid around $200 give or take for a two- to three-day clinic with well-known stockmen (e.g., Jack Knox, Tommy Wilson, Bobby Dalziel, Pat Shannahan, etc.). I know I wouldn't pay that for an hour.. I don't think you can really judge a dog's behavior on stock entirely based on behavior off stock. I have a couple of dogs who are quite sensitive to humans (their own or other) yelling, for example, but who wouldn't back down from a charging ram for love or money. Your dog may be submissive to you or others and still willing to take a sheep by the nose. Only time and good training will tell. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Orr Posted November 28, 2014 Report Share Posted November 28, 2014 Nothing will give you more satisfaction than to train your dog to ITS highest level without the prejudice of negative OPINIONS. Over the years that I have training and trialed my dogs it has dawned on me that a lot of the talk ABOUT this dog or that dog based on some "big hat" or breeder's opinion does more harm than good to a less confident trainer and their untrained dog. We hear "too much/not enough eye", "soft", etc. And then when we take our dog to stock, what do you think we look for first? That's right, the negatives that we've heard from others. Be careful who you listen to. Unless this dog makes you unhappy, forget about its breeding. Learn to observe what it actually does in training. If it doesn't do what you want, figure out how to work on that problem. Don't blame the dog until you're sure you've accurately observed what is happening and the probable causes. Give a lot of thought to how you're going to train. There are many more poor trainers/handlers than there are unworthy dogs. A lot of beginners want to get the dog to do something once and they think it is trained. A very few dogs are that way, but most of us require various degrees of repetition. With enough planning, persistence, and patience you will probably do better than a lot of the people who feel the need to get the son/grandson of an imported champion and think it will be an out-of-the box winner. I sincerely wish you and your dog great success - go to work! It's a great ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted November 28, 2014 Report Share Posted November 28, 2014 I've paid $240 for a weekend's clinic with a top clinician (e.g., Patrick Shannahan; 4 works over 2 days, so it works out to $60 per session). Private lessons I pay $60 for one dog or $90 for two dogs with a top USBCHA Open handler. Lessons always seem to take 1-2 hours, depending on how many dogs I'm working. Breaks between works are just as instructive as working dogs. Lessons before or after mine are gratis. Value of lessons /clinics not involving by my dogs? Without price.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEC Posted November 28, 2014 Report Share Posted November 28, 2014 Nothing will give you more satisfaction than to train your dog to ITS highest level without the prejudice of negative OPINIONS. Over the years that I have training and trialed my dogs it has dawned on me that a lot of the talk ABOUT this dog or that dog based on some "big hat" or breeder's opinion does more harm than good to a less confident trainer and their untrained dog. We hear "too much/not enough eye", "soft", etc. And then when we take our dog to stock, what do you think we look for first? That's right, the negatives that we've heard from others. Be careful who you listen to. Unless this dog makes you unhappy, forget about its breeding. Learn to observe what it actually does in training. If it doesn't do what you want, figure out how to work on that problem. Don't blame the dog until you're sure you've accurately observed what is happening and the probable causes. Give a lot of thought to how you're going to train. There are many more poor trainers/handlers than there are unworthy dogs. A lot of beginners want to get the dog to do something once and they think it is trained. A very few dogs are that way, but most of us require various degrees of repetition. With enough planning, persistence, and patience you will probably do better than a lot of the people who feel the need to get the son/grandson of an imported champion and think it will be an out-of-the box winner. I sincerely wish you and your dog great success - go to work! It's a great ride. Bill, you said it! Well spoken. Learn how to train, rather than wishing for this or that kind of dog. The best trainers, IMO, do not loosely offer unsolicited opinions concerning things that cannot be readily changed. If a dog's negative trait is germane to an explanation, they always demonstrate how to train/run the dog in front of them. Work with what you have got. Develop a dog to its full potential. Learn your dog's glitches (they all have them), and how to run to its strengths. Border Collies have incredible talent. With good handling and training, I believe that, over the years, characteristics we tend to think of as innate traits can begin to emerge, and for the better. I've seen, for example, more eye, more assertiveness, more thoughtfulness in the last year or so from my BC who is almost ten. For her nothing was set in stone. I believe it is extremely important for beginning handlers to have an instructor who acts in the role of a coach/mentor, rather than a drill sergeant who does most the training him/herself, or who from a distance micro-manages your every move. In the end, an owner takes his/her dog home after the session, and has to learn how to handle on his/her own. For me the ideal coach/mentor tells and shows you a series of maneuvers, and provides a critique after you have tried them. When far enough along, he allows ample independent work time. Try to keep an open mind at first, and reserve your own opinion of the instructor, and what works for you, until you have afforded a fair opportunity, and perhaps diplomatically discussed your expectations. I too, wish you and your dog the very best. It is an exciting time. Looking forward to full descriptions, along with video, if possible. -- TEC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoHo Posted February 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 I've posted about her first full training session and attached a short clip showing part of that session. Here's the link to the post: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=37756 Here's the youtube clip. It was a very interesting experience. The trainer answered a lot of my questions I had about my pup. Most of my inclinations were spot on, though a few things I got totally wrong. And a few are still unanswered. It was also interesting to see how my friend's dogs reacted to their introductions to sheep and how our dogs differed. The next lessons I get I want to be in there learning how to handle my dog. The only way I can stay interested in this hobby is if I'm participating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyQ Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Very cool! I can't say much about the increase of quality, since I am inexperienced in the working dog world. I must say it was fascinating to watch. I'm in about the same boat: I would love to at least see how Maple responds to sheep. I'll have to dig out her ABCA pedigree paper sometime... the breeder told me her sire worked sheep but her mother didn't. If I were to speculate based on what I know about my dog, I'd say she was probably bred for color alone in the recent generations, but if someone told me she had working blood in her, I probably wouldn't doubt it. (Are there "big names" I should look for in her papers?) If I get the chance to start her on sheep, I don't think Maple would ever become a wonderful working dog or worthy of a continued legacy (a big chunk of the reason I'm spaying her). Herding seems like a great activity for us to get involved in, though. If a dog has never been introduced to sheep before, is it safe to do so at the "instinct test"? I always feel nervous about just dropping my dog into new situations, considering her nervous nature. Also, is Culleymont Farm a good choice for someone who wants to evaluate potential and maybe take lessons? I've researched some past posts and it seems like a good candidate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Cheryl Jagger Williams is highly respected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.