Anti merle prejudice

[Donald McCaig]

Post 299. Giyf.

Dear Ms. Mum,

Givf is a citation?

 

Donald McCaig

[Mark Billadeau]

And google says.....

 

No results found for "farm dog vs trial dog" "Andy Nickless".

Without the quotes (used to search for exact phrases) there were about 16,700 matches. Which one are you citing?

[Maxi]

And google says.....

 

No results found for "farm dog vs trial dog" "Andy Nickless".

Without the quotes (used to search for exact phrases) there were about 16,700 citations. Which one are you citing?

Try this

http://www.workingsheepdog.co.uk/farm-dog-vs-trials-dog/

 

It must be a Google UK/ US selection bias..at least I presume this is the blog article that Mum24dog meant

[Mark Billadeau]

Thank you for the link.

Say in a trial you send your dog out to the right but it crosses over to he left because it really does know better then you, do you not lose points at a trial?

If it repeatedly ignores you and crosses over do you not risk disqualification?

Andy Nickless addresses the point in " Farm dog vs Trial dog". Google should find it as I can't post a link.

As Andy pointed out the mistake was his, not the dog's, and the team (dog & handler) got pointed for his mistake. When turning the post many handlers (in my region) essentially balance the sheep around the post. If the handler incorrectly balances around the post the wrong way and the dog balances correctly, should the team be rewarded because the dog worked correctly or should they be pointed for the handler mistake?

 

 

Scoring is based upon a team effort and this is where many people make a mistake about how trials should (or are) used for selecting breeding dogs. It is not just about the placings; however, consistent placings in a wide range of trials can be very indicative of the dog's ability.

 

[TEC]

Say in a trial you send your dog out to the right but it crosses over to he left because it really does know better then you, do you not lose points at a trial?

 

If it repeatedly ignores you and crosses over do you not risk disqualification?

 

Andy Nickless addresses the point in " Farm dog vs Trial dog". Google should find it as I can't post a link.

Things learned about myself in limited trial experiences --

 

Do not completely discount the side to which the majority of handlers sent their dogs, notwithstanding that some outruns/lifts on each side had been less than desirable. Bad things happened, which I could have avoided by sending in the majority direction.

 

Do not by rote follow long-standing advice from trainers to march dog to post directly in line with sheep, particularly when you have to pass within feet of a poorly located exhaust pen to get there. My dog: "No, no...the sheep are right here. You are so wrong about gathering that bunch way over there".

 

As soon as sheep seem committed to the correct side of post, get your dog around on a flank to be ready to cover in event they decide to bolt in unexpected directions.

 

I sympathize with Andy. Been there, although not in competition. Reading his story clarified things, especially about trusting your dog at the post.

 

Those are among my top ten, and there's always the commands given throughout the run that I might have delivered and timed better. I cannot say that my dog knew more than me in above examples, but they demonstrate to me anyway where I need to improve, and how the score is a team effort.

 

Here's one in which my dog was the smarter. We pen well. We had just demonstrated that in a previous run. It goes quick, two or three commands, no questions asked. One lamb was not happy with her roommates and her quarters. In the pen and out before I could close the gate -- a couple of times. I felt Josie was properly positioned. Other two wandered out, and a few times around the pen. No doubt a good deal of frustrated overly excited commands on my part. To myself, "Well, all my pen points are gone. Ringing the pen is horrible training for my dog, and this trial is for fun, nothing at stake. I'm ready to retire (lose all points), and call it good for the day". In those few seconds of pondering the situation, she had penned them on her own. A lot surprised, I closed the gate. Good dog. I hear about handlers who just get out of their dog's way, and simply try not to mess things up. May have to give that a go myself. -- TEC

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I walk my dog past the exhaust all the time and towards the sheep...I have trained my dog to look forward to the direction that I am walking....not besides or behind me. I do the same with the younger dogs and when they look at the exhaust sheep, I tell them to leave it. We have sheep in various pens and they soon learn to listen to me and look for the sheep ahead of us. I did have one dog go back to the exhaust so went home and worked on it so wasn't an issue.

 

The wise word from a long time shepherd was to walk the dog to the direction of the sheep whether it be a trial or at home....(he also trials)....his say on this was something like, you are telling the dog that there are sheep out yonder and they have to trust you...and when you send them, they will find the sheep and then believe you. They will soon figure out that you want the sheep that you necessary cannot see but they are out there and not here (next to me).......

[emilyfalk]

Agree with Diane: that's called *spotting sheep*...a system we work out from a young age so the dog learns where to go for sheep that are out of sight or for one group instead of another group. Useful for farm and trial.

[Sue R]

It's precisely how a dog knows where to look (and where not to look) for its sheep. A simple training tool and there probably isn't a good trainer that doesn't use it. It's also essential for letting a dog know where to run out for stock on the farm and in any situation where the stock are not readily visible. If a dog is distracted by the wrong stock, a simple word should let him know those are not the right ones.

[emilyfalk]

Re: a course that's too hard?

 

I would add poor vision/hearing at the drive away and cross drive panels. Theoretically, you could set the line at the start of the drive and expect the dog to keep it, but if you can't see him or if he can't hear you, it would be impossible to turn to set the cross-drive leg and then the return leg. I can think of one trial that has notoriously bad hearing (combined with lots of pressure) at the drive away panel (which becomes the cross drive panel when the course is reversed).

 

I disagree on the tall grass not being a "too hard" variable. The dog and sheep easily get disoriented when they can't see where they're going, and add to that a handler that has trouble seeing the dog and a dog whose hearing is affected by the rustle of the grass about its head and vision by the need to squint to protect its eyes. The smaller dogs need to break stride and leap through the grass. Other than a short gather, where I would be giving loud steady whistles or the dog's name to help it orient to me, I wouldn't do this on the farm and therefore wouldn't want to do this at a trial.

[Mark Billadeau]

Not to mention the potential injuries to animals because they cannot see where they are going (groundhog holes, ditches, etc) or eye injures from the tall vegetation.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Trainers,

 

Early in the season, our grass is often higher than the dog's head and sometimes a flock of a hundred is hard to spot in forty acres. We've had sheep for forty years and if I haven't inspected the flock in two days I get nervous so I send Fly. She is receptive to my cues and knows the sheep are out there somewhere and despite the difficulties(which include smut in her eyes) and poor dog/sheep interaction (they can't see each other until the dog is very close) she will fetch the sheep to my feet. It's necessary work - like last winter sending Fly out into a blizzard for sheep I couldn't see. If she did have trouble (get tangled in some wire?) because of the deep snow I couldn't have helped her.

 

Every shepherd occasionally sends his dog to do nasty and even dangerous work.

 

Donald McCaig

[Mark Billadeau]

Every shepherd occasionally sends his dog to do nasty and even dangerous work.

Yes, for the good of the flock. There is no reason it needs to be part of a trial.

[emilyfalk]

Right. Not fair to dogs and sheep to do that for sport, and to handlers who pay lots of money, take time off from work, and travel long distances for a *fair go*.

[KnottyClarence]

Interesting replies to course difficulty. When I think of the future of these dogs and the future of using them to help on a stock farm, I can't help but think in a trial context, as this is how I entered into the examination of the interaction between dog and sheep (helped or hindered by a handler) which is "herding" as It is today.

 

We speak of breeding decisions for the "improvement" of the breed, and also with great fondness for the dogs of the past as well as the ways of living which created them. An interesting balance.

 

If there is a course "standard", in which the grass is neither too tall nor too short, the sheep are wild, fresh, workable and healthy, as well as agreeable and dependable with a particular fondness for the pen but not so much for each other that they won't shed, the hills are not too high to scale, nor low--can't see the dog, the outrun is huge and impressive but not too far, the sheep are well held on a beautiful day, do we breed to "this" standard?

 

I'm teasing a bit but I do think the art of this thing we love is this sort of balancing act.

 

I think there is room in this activity for the occasional merle--know a couple really cute ones that get the job done quite well HERE IN THE UPPER MIDWEST, where there are all kinds of trials and all sorts of sheep.

[Debbie Meier]

Early in the season, our grass is often higher than the dog's head and sometimes a flock of a hundred is hard to spot in forty acres. We've had sheep for forty years and if I haven't inspected the flock in two days I get nervous so I send Fly. She is receptive to my cues and knows the sheep are out there somewhere and despite the difficulties(which include smut in her eyes) and poor dog/sheep interaction (they can't see each other until the dog is very close) she will fetch the sheep to my feet. It's necessary work - like last winter sending Fly out into a blizzard for sheep I couldn't see. If she did have trouble (get tangled in some wire?) because of the deep snow I couldn't have helped her.

Factors that make this not as difficult as it would seem,

 

1. Sheep are at a home pasture

2. Sheep likely know where they are going to go when dog heads out to pasture

3. Dog knows the lay of the land

 

When we had 80 plus ewes we would free range them on the corn fields, our home is the only one on this section, the rest is corn fields. It didn't take long for the sheep to know the drill, even to the point where I could stand in the front yard, whistle or give a voice command to a invisible dog and soon here came the sheep.

 

I'm not saying that your sheep are that pattern broke Donald, just pointing out that what we feel are adverse conditions may not be the challenge that we think they are when compared to taking a dog out to a field they have never seen to bring in sheep that have never been across it or that are being asked to go places they normally do not get taken with a dog.

 

I recall the first we had a trial here and open handlers attended, I was shocked that the open dogs struggled with the work we requested that our dogs easily did. At first I was pretty proud of my dogs, but then I realized the unfair advantage our dogs had, they knew the sheep, they knew the draws, they knew the lay of the land. The sheep also set up a unfair advantage, they were cagey and knew when a dog was trying to handling them that they had the upper hand on.

 

Definitely one of those times that home court was a huge advantage.

[HJTRAS]

My vet had a Merle BC that was deaf. She taught him sign language. She said that deafness is a common trait with Merle BC's.

[Sue R]

Factors that make this not as difficult as it would seem,

 

1. Sheep are at a home pasture

2. Sheep likely know where they are going to go when dog heads out to pasture

3. Dog knows the lay of the land

This is true in my experience. Our cattle know the farm land better than I do, and the dogs are familiar with it as well, so that I can send Celt to get cattle "there" and *he* selects his own outrun pathway based on his knowledge of the farm, the fences, the land, the obstacles, where he can slip through the fence, and what will put him where he wants to be. So he may go below the spring run, and into the west hayfield, turn up and pass through part of the triangle field, and come out behind the cattle in the south hayfield. And for all this outrun, once he's gotten away from my feet, he may not be able to see his stock until he gets somewhere into the south hayfield - but he saw where they were (south hayfield), knows how they tend to group (or not, depending on the season, grazing, time of day, etc.), and knows just how to get where he expects he needs to be to do it right.

 

In addition, with our land being rough in places and sometimes having certain areas that are deep with mud, a dog knows how to avoid the rougher going, woodchuck holes, branches, rocks, limbs, and the mud that would put them at a risk or disadvantage.

 

If I were to send a dog unfamiliar with our stock and our property, he/she might have to take a trip or two to figure out what works well - meanwhile, would that dog get stuck behind a fence, running into the wrong field, or what?

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

Debbie's remarks about the very real "home court advantage" made me recall an early phase of this discussion about crossovers at trials. If you want a guaranteed crossover and suddenly deaf sheepdog try sending him for the sheep he's gathered every morning for months from the hill pasture when unaccountably this morning they're in the bottom.

 

Donald McCaig

[Mark Billadeau]

When we had 80 plus ewes we would free range them on the corn fields, our home is the only one on this section, the rest is corn fields. It didn't take long for the sheep to know the drill, even to the point where I could stand in the front yard, whistle or give a voice command to a invisible dog and soon here came the sheep.

 

I'm not saying that your sheep are that pattern broke Donald, just pointing out that what we feel are adverse conditions may not be the challenge that we think they are when compared to taking a dog out to a field they have never seen to bring in sheep that have never been across it or that are being asked to go places they normally do not get taken with a dog.

 

I recall the first we had a trial here and open handlers attended, I was shocked that the open dogs struggled with the work we requested that our dogs easily did. At first I was pretty proud of my dogs, but then I realized the unfair advantage our dogs had, they knew the sheep, they knew the draws, they knew the lay of the land. The sheep also set up a unfair advantage, they were cagey and knew when a dog was trying to handling them that they had the upper hand on.

Debbie,

Thank you for the perfect example of how selecting dogs for breeding based upon "getting the job done" on some farms may not set the breeding selection bar very high. I'm not saying all of the work on your farm is this easy; I'm saying that if the community agrees that breeding based upon "getting the job done" on any farm is good enough for selecting breeding dogs we may be lowering the work standard in our breed.

Mark

[Sue R]

My vet had a Merle BC that was deaf. She taught him sign language. She said that deafness is a common trait with Merle BC's.

While deafness and eye problems are common among homozygous merles (those carrying two merle genes), deafness is not something that would be considered "common" among heterozygous merles.

 

Early-onset deafness does occur in Border Collies. We have one with this condition (a black/white, not a merle) who began to lose her hearing at about age 5. She is trained with some hand signals.

 

I am sure someone with better information can reply to this, as I know there has been some commentary about merles possibly being prone to certain problems that may be associated with this gene.

[Smalahundur]

Debbie,

Thank you for the perfect example of how selecting dogs for breeding based upon "getting the job done" on some farms may not set the breeding selection bar very high. I'm not saying all of the work on your farm is this easy; I'm saying that if the community agrees that breeding based upon "getting the job done" on any farm is good enough for selecting breeding dogs we may be lowering the work standard in our breed.

Mark

Okay. so the breed standard is above and beyond farm work ("on some farms" you don´t really care to specify further) in your opinion.

Kind of confirms my worries.

[KnottyClarence]

So Mark, the farm work standard is also fraught with peril. So the notion of standard is by definition self limiting. These dogs have such potential, we don't want to put ourselves in the position to miss any advancement or added nuance, even if it comes with a flashy color, or a calm version of our beloved black and white.

 

Margaret Lass-Gardiner (Knotty Clarence)

[Sue R]

Debbie,

Thank you for the perfect example of how selecting dogs for breeding based upon "getting the job done" on some farms may not set the breeding selection bar very high. I'm not saying all of the work on your farm is this easy; I'm saying that if the community agrees that breeding based upon "getting the job done" on any farm is good enough for selecting breeding dogs we may be lowering the work standard in our breed.

Mark

A *lot* of the work on our farm is this easy. In fact, to move the cows much of the time, all it takes is Ed calling them as they know the drill. When it's time that they are ready for new pasture, they will call whenever they hear or see Ed, and oftentimes come running when he calls. If they hear sounds of fence work (pounding t-posts, for instance) they will be there at the opening to the next field without a word from Ed.

 

What we truly need the dogs for (and they are so essential in getting the job done and minimizing stress all around) is when it is a more complicated move - cows with calves, especially the younger calves that are not experienced with moving to a new field or (even more so) across the driveway or road; leaving a good pasture to move back to or across a grazed-down pasture to get them somewhere else (they don't see the point and balk); moving the herd to and into the working pens; moving a new mother and calf *anywhere* before they feel they are wanting to move.

 

Our dogs are good, useful dogs in our situation but they'd have to have proven themselves to be more than they can here in order to be considered good breeding material.

[TEC]

Debbie,

Thank you for the perfect example of how selecting dogs for breeding based upon "getting the job done" on some farms may not set the breeding selection bar very high. I'm not saying all of the work on your farm is this easy; I'm saying that if the community agrees that breeding based upon "getting the job done" on any farm is good enough for selecting breeding dogs we may be lowering the work standard in our breed.

Mark

The difficulty levels of ISDS-style courses vary at least as much as farm conditions. Some pattern courses do not ask for a high standard of performance, and others are challenges for everyone. Aside from the home team advantage, farm work conditions in the US are all over the board, as well, not merely in difficulty but in kind of work needed. While numbers of stock may have a bearing on the definition of farm work, IMO it is only one part of an overall picture. -- TEC

[Mark Billadeau]

Okay. so the breed standard is above and beyond farm work ("on some farms" you don´t really care to specify further) in your opinion.

Kind of confirms my worries.

If we say "getting the job done" during farm work is the breed standard and the job on that farm is to gather dairy cows for milking or sheep from the same field everyday like described by Debbie are we really going to breed the best working dogs? Wouldn't you want the breed standard to be higher than that. Now there are other farms where the work standard is very high; higher than at some trials.

 

Saying "getting the job done" on a farm tells us no more about the ability of the dog than placing at a few local trials. Neither statement tells us about the difficulty of the tasks. The standard for our breed is the work; we should all agree on that. The hard part is defining "the work". In my opinion it should be more than "getting the job done" on any farm because the job on some farms might not take much ability. In my opinion, it should be more than placing at a few local trials because placing at a few local trials possibly running on "training sheep" might not take much ability.