Anti merle prejudice

[CMP]

^^

 

Yes. That represents very closely what I hear as well.

 

 

ETA: the other morning I watched one of the barge dogs, a very large dog we call Rocky as a nickname, essentially drag, push and intimidate a ram off a boat. The relevant human was engaged elsewhere, busy with the offloaded sheep and the remaining stubborn Ram had to come off. He did drag him a few feet, actually. He is quite biddable, but will not be told how to accomplish the minutia. He could have been called off the Ram but he could not have been told to go left or right or any such thing as that.

 

His whole line is like that. And he is as pure a representative as we have on this farm of a "trial dog" being a long descendant of Imp Moss on both sides.

 

So ... yeah. Go figure.

[Debbie Meier]

The other thing that we see first hand is no selection for bite placement since biting can be such a detriment in sheep trials and also often not needed when the cattle trials are on dogged cattle. We see many that bite high, hock and above when biting from behind, bite flanks, bite sides, under the necks, polls, at eye and ears. We truly believe that bite placement is bred in, clean on the nose and clean and low on the heel.

Your not going to get good bite placement reliably without selection and also testing the dogs and you can't evaluate it until a load is placed on a dog. A dog may have good bite placement under low stress conditions but then get's trashy when the situation get's intense. Also, a dog that doesn't naturally get to the right places or lacks power, confidence and courage isn't going to exhibit good bite placement, so it's all part of a way bigger package selection wise.

I wince each time I see a dog that I would call a "trashy biter" on sheep and hear the owner say that the dog would be better for cattle. If that trash is coming from being excited, lack of courage and confidence, it's likely to end up not being the cow dog that is envisioned, may get it done for the short term, but I would question how long it could do it, the load of the work often breaks them down or they get themselves injured/killed. Again, why many steer clear of cattle, a dog that has a habit that puts himself into a bad spot is going to have to learn a different way, in learning it may end up severely injured or dead. The more naturally correct dogs really do have a edge.

[juliepoudrier]

Here's what I wonder about Debbie's described situation. Clearly the owner of the dog recognized that the dog needed experience. Clearly the feedlot owner knew that the dog did not have experience in that situation. What did the feedlot owner do to help the dog learn to do its job before deciding that the dog was incapable?

 

J.

[Liz P]

Agree with Julie on this one. Sometimes dogs with lots of natural feel are reluctant to come in. They have to know it's not only ok but desirable to pressure the stock into moving (via stepping forward and a grip if warranted). I have a young dog I am just starting who has lovely feel. I've been praising him for applying pressure and allowing nose bites if needed to move the stock.

[Debbie Meier]

What did the feedlot owner do? Feedlot owner set up easy situations isolated out that the dog was fine at moving cattle that move off presence but will not put enough pressure on to create motion when there is none offered.

Dog was placed into situations to try to help it learn, was encouraged to get in there and put pressure on, but instead the dog is seeking pressure release/relief. I know this because the owner also trains his own dogs, has had dogs of ours down there, in fact is running a dog now that we bred and he was explaining all the things he has tried to help this dog and how when he did the same with dogs of ours that needed experience but this dog didn't respond the same way.

 

There is a difference between a dog lacking in experience and not naturally having the power and desire to create motion.

So many want to believe that you can just teach it, well to a degree you can, but it isn't the same as bred in naturally and you will find that when you try to take the dog to tougher situations the weakness will still be there, it's not the dogs natural predisposition it had to be taught and what we teach does not breed true aside from the fact that you will likely have to teach it in the next generation.

[CMP]

...

 

There is a difference between a dog lacking in experience and not naturally having the power and desire to create motion.

 

So many want to believe that you can just teach it, well to a degree you can, but it isn't the same as bred in naturally and you will find that when you try to take the dog to tougher situations the weakness will still be there, it's not the dogs natural predisposition it had to be taught and what we teach does not breed true aside from the fact that you will likely have to teach it in the next generation.

 

 

I agree. We have several dogs that are naturally "soft" and are used in fairly specific situations - and you can trace the softness through the line(s). None of them would even be considered to go work the island/wild-ish sheep or go on long drives, but they're go to with the wool sheep who are worked more often. Interestingly, the softer dogs tend to be the ones with the most white.

[Mark Billadeau]

I keep reading over and over again about the need for stamina in farm dogs (supposedly greater than what is needed for trial dogs).

 

 

How many hours a day are farm dogs (farm = livestock grazing operation not a feed lot) required to work?

Are farmers really moving their stock around the farm for hours every day?

Is it physical or mental stamina that farmers think is lacking in trial dogs?

Is it possible that with more daily exercise (moving stock around the farm for hours every day) trial dogs would obtain the stamina standard required by farmers?

[Debbie Meier]

No, not hours every day. They may not get used for weeks, but when they do get used they need to work until the job gets done which may take all day and not every farmer/rancher has a kennel full of dogs so that they can pull out another when the current ones gets tired.

 

The lot that we go down to only has 2 resident dogs, there are times that they wear those dogs out and we send down a back up dog, like in spring during calving when they are sorting cows nearly daily.

 

Each year they host a trial and we get 200-300 head ready for the trial, others bring dogs down to help, you can really see which dogs have more stamina both mentally and physically after a weekend of getting the cattle ready. We can even see the differences in our own dogs, also noting that the dogs who need less encouragement to get the task done also have more staying power, it's just easier for them so less taxing on their bodies and mind.

[Debbie Meier]

It also gets old real fast trying to move 75-100 head out of a lot with a dog that you have to cheerlead.

[CMP]

When I talk about stamina, I am talking more about the ability to do it every day, some days for many hours a day (if one has a large farm and grazing is done on hillsides or in remote places, as an example) and less about the ability to withstand many contiguous hours of work (that does happen, but it happens infrequently).

 

The dogs here are with their people all day, not necessarily *working* the sheep in the sense you mean it, but they're trotting around with them, doing this or that, and those people get up and sunrise and quit when the light does and they do that almost every day (we are not a single proprieter farm, so days off happen, of course).

 

*That* is what I mean. Not sure what other people mean.

 

If I had to pick a single thing that I would pinpoint as lacking in trial dogs, if such a thing actually exists, is independence. No trial person wants a really independent dog and most farmers need one and some farmers need a *really* independent dog. Stamina would not be high on my list except in the big picture way.

[CMP]

It also gets old real fast trying to move 75-100 head out of a lot with a dog that you have to cheerlead.

 

 

I want to *like* this post.

 

As usual she said in one sentence what took me a few paragraphs

[Debbie Meier]

Here is a video of the last of 280 head that we had gone through in one day. We had help earlier in the day by some of the local cattledog trialers but by this time they were all long gone, my dog was pretty much wiped out and in coast mode but we had held back Slick knowing that we would need to be certain to have enough dog to get the job done.

 

We were taking the steers out of this lot and putting them onto a wheat field where another dog took them back and forth a bit to verify that they were not going to just run through dogs and through the fence, yes some out of the 280 would, high headed and had no interest in being handled by a dog or maybe they were recovering from pick eye and didn't see well. Those would get sorted off and put into a different pen so as not to be used for the trial coming up.

 

It was taking 2 dogs and 2 people to get the cattle to the corner at gate cut 8-10 head. At this point I was holding a side horseback and try to video. Everyone had to do their part of the job, even the dogs, we can help them but ultimately we can't just stand back and command them since we needed to concentrate on our part of the work.

 

The deep mud added to the challenge, yeah we could have made it easier by bringing them in and out a different gate, but we needed them to go out that corner so to help even out the draws for the upcoming trial since the trial was being held on the field we were putting them out into.

 

There is a break in the video, the cattle broke back on us and we had to start over.

 

[Liz P]

"There is a difference between a dog lacking in experience and not naturally having the power and desire to create motion."

 

Yes, but you didn't clarify in your post that steps were taken to encourage the dog to move stock. I won't fault a young dog in training that looks for permission to get things moving. This is a very different issue than lack of power.

[Smalahundur]

1. I keep reading over and over again about the need for stamina in farm dogs (supposedly greater than what is needed for trial dogs).

 

 

2. How many hours a day are farm dogs (farm = livestock grazing operation not a feed lot) required to work?

3. Are farmers really moving their stock around the farm for hours every day?

4. Is it physical or mental stamina that farmers think is lacking in trial dogs?

5. Is it possible that with more daily exercise (moving stock around the farm for hours every day) trial dogs would obtain the stamina standard required by farmers?

By numbers:

1. Probably because the question is never answered.

2/3. My own situation, no, not "every day", but in the fall round up season, all day long, several days in a row. Can be over 12 hours a day And that is where it really matters.

4. I personally don´t think trial dogs lack anything. But I worry mostly about certain aspects of physical soundness for the long run. And I see dogs having trouble working days on end (sore feet).

5. "Is it possible", come on, seriously? We are talking breeding potential/choices here, not the effects of training.

 

I keep reading over and over about farm work being defined as the simple daily chores on the farm.

That is not where the rubber meets the road.

There is a consensus here on the boards that if you don´t select for stock work capacity it will deteriorate.

Why would this not be true for stamina/endurance?

Why are people getting so cagey over these questions?

[Debbie Meier]

He says that the dog will make a great trial dog, can see the owner winning big with it, but that he can't use it, the dog is only effective on cattle that are already dog broke that know to move off a dog, if the cattle stall he just stands there waiting for them to honor his presence

I figure it was clear that the dog lacked power when I wrote this, my apologies for not elaborating further.

 

I probably also should have mentioned that the feedlot owner also trials and ran his personal older dog at the USBCHA Cattledog Finals placing in the top 10, so to me he has a pretty good idea of what he sees as a successful trial dog and what will carry over and be useful to him on a day to day bases to fill his dog needs. He is very creditable.

 

We have had no luck with dogs that look for permission to get things moving, it really gets you into a jam when the dog is out of sight waiting for permission. They are a lot of fun to trial though.

[juliepoudrier]

Thanks for clarifying Debbie. You were unclear in your original post. I get that not all dogs are up to all tasks. I have had dogs like that. But all too often I see folks take dogs and toss them into situations they are unprepared for, give them no help, and then blame the dog. It sounds as if this was not the case here.

 

Still, I wonder how you reconcile trialing, your and Wayne's multiple trips to the cattle finals, if you find trial dogs inferior in most cases?

 

CMP,

I think it's time for me to bow out of this part of the discussion. I use my one or two dogs to do all the work I need, home or trial. Your family breeds different dogs for different tasks. I think we will have to agree to disagree that their breeding criteria are far superior to anything any of the rest of us could do.

 

J.

[Smalahundur]

Instead of making I new post I edited my last #264.

[Debbie Meier]

How do we reconcile it?

 

Trialling is a hobby and gets our dogs out in front of people, great way to educate the masses and introduce stockdogs to people who have no or limited experience.

 

It's great to get a message from someone who spectated the trial and they say that out of the dogs there, your dog was one of three that they would pick to take to work with them. They can see the dogs that are handling the livestock, not having to be told where to go and when to go there. Which dogs are holding just the right amount of pressure to make the cattle look like a dream set.

 

We watch for that when we trial, the dogs that make it look easy trial after trial, they may not win, but they never seem to get truly defeated and they never quit. There are a lot of nice dogs out there that people are trialing, are they for us, most of them are not, but then again many will say the same about ours. The trialling does allow us to see what other people have, to see if we can spot something that has what we are looking to that will help us improve on what we have.

 

 

As far as cattle dog finals, we have been there 4 years in a row, each year Jake has made the top 20, twice top 10 this past year if Wayne had called time when he had 5 on the trailer he would be the current national champion, not to take anything away from the great work that the champion and reserve champion did, but Jake and Wayne were the only ones to get cattle on the trailer.

 

 

Needless to say, Jake has his weaknesses and he is not our best dog when it comes to difficult and hard work. He is our number one dog when it comes to precision and quiet work, like when we take sheep through parades or when you need to go out and get a single in that is undogged for the neighbor, but we know what his kryptonite is and either select a different dog for that task or make certain that we I place where we can handle him through it. I can also say that his weakness on cattle does also show up on sheep, well all other livestock, you just need to know where to look for it.

 

So it comes down to, even though he has lots of trial success we also see where he struggles and have seen that those struggles carry over to the real work. At the trial most will say that he had a bad draw of cattle, nah...it wasn't a bad draw, he just wasn't strong enough to handle that particular draw of cattle, he showed his weakness to the cattle and they saw it like a big red flag.

 

We have been lucky to produce some dogs that we saw later at trials )we try to encourage our puppy buyers to give trialing a try.) There are a couple that I've walked away after seeing them handle a set of cattle thinking to myself "man I would love to have a dog that handles cattle like that", luckily that dog came out of our kennel.

 

There is one in particular that has only been trialed twice, owned by a first time border collie owner and is a companion, pet and feedlot dog, but darn does he ever bring everyone to the fence to watch, he puts on a clinic as to effective and perfectly time pressure and release resulting in cattle that shoulder up and go where they are told as if they were trained, you just don't see that very often. The down side, the dog isn't keen to go to work on momma cows (per his owner), so even he is not as good as it gets, he's not quite courageous enough.

[Debbie Meier]

BTW, where did I use the term "inferior"?

[juliepoudrier]

Debbie,

Everything I read in your post is pretty much what others here have said. That's where I'm getting the disconnect. You seem to be arguing for the "other side," (farm dogs) and yet you're not really saying anything different than many of the rest of us.

 

 

It's great to get a message from someone who spectated the trial and they say that out of the dogs there, your dog was one of three that they would pick to take to work with them. They can see the dogs that are handling the livestock, not having to be told where to go and when to go there. Which dogs are holding just the right amount of pressure to make the cattle look like a dream set.

 

And I have made this exact same argument myself, just in different words. Why is it that the people that attend the trials you also attend are capable of seeing, really seeing, the good dogs and yet if someone else makes that same statement as a defense of why trial dogs aren't automatically unsuitable for "real" farm work (or that people who trial don't automaticaly breed only to trial winners) you seem to disagree? Is it only people who go to cattledog trials that are capable of distinguishing a good dog from a well handled dog? Isn't it at least possible, despite what CMP believes, that people are also capable of making the same judgments at sheepdog trials? And if one believes that people are capable of making such judgments at trials, is it too great a leap to also believe that those same people might actually be capable of making sound breeding decisions, not based in who won what trial?

 

And, please, I am not going to nitpick wording. I'm not going to comb through your posts to see if you used the word inferior. It's the total sense of the posts you and CMP have made that imply that trial dogs cannot stand up to farm dogs that elicited that comment. You brought up the feedlot example as one of a perfectly good trial dog who couldn't do real work. In that sense, yes, you are saying the trial dog is inferior when it comes to doing real work. You don't have to use the actual word to get the meaning across.

 

And regarding Jake, have you bred him despite the weaknesses you have pointed out? If so, then I assume you have because the things you like about him are worth keeping. But I do wonder how that is any different than any other breeding decision that has been described thus far? Do the people who have bought puppies do so exclusively because they think he can do the farm work they have, or have some of them been influenced by his showing at trials?

 

J.

[TEC]

My wife once jokingly said to me that instead of the isds style trial we should just send contestants into the high land, during fall round up time, he who returns with the most sheep wins...

 

An aspect that is not directly tested in sheep dog trials is endurance/stamina. I need a dog that can be on his feet the whole day, in rough terrain, preferably several days in a row. Long outruns, drives that are tens of kilometers.

I think this should be a very important selection criterium in breeding.

I don´t care how brilliant the dog is, if he can´t walk anymore he is utterly useless.

What a great barometer of skill, endurance, grit. I can just hear it; ranchers who trail sheep yearly for summer mountain pasture and transhumance migrators all over the world, bragging their dogs passed your test . How could handler-specific elements be removed? I am kidding, but only a little bit. Your wife knows her stuff.

 

Just a query ... would those who attend trials to the point of getting to national finals consider the route there a test of endurance, alike to, say, a sports team getting through the playoffs to win the championship. Really, the team that wins wins on merit and sustainable performance/durability.

 

Is the road arduous enough to merit the comparison?

 

Anyone?

I did not see this answered. If it was, I do not mean to be repetitive. I have not tried a run for the finals (doubtful my dog and I are ready), but have discussed it with those who have made numerous trips. I thought it an interesting question, and here's my understanding.

 

Many in the US west run at a few local (to them) trials throughout the year. They then go on the road circuit for Meeker, Soldier Hollow and perhaps another trial of choice, ending at the finals, all in one trip. It's weeks on the road, usually via RV, dogs getting exercise, but subjected to the same travel stresses as their handlers. If fortunate, handlers find friend(s) along the way to have practice session(s) on sheep, but this cannot be counted on. Routines are interrupted, and long periods in crates. If run at trial, the runs are brief, about 10-11 mins. plus/minus, and likely no more than 2/day/dog on weekends when trials are run, and possibly less. Physical strain and exhaustion from cumulative trials/exercise is minimal, although inadvertent injury and sickness must play factors.

 

I am told dogs are primarily mentally stressed from the trial precision demanded, and from travel related matters. Nursery dogs are particularly subject to it, thus the phrase I have heard, "Peak at the right time/trial". I feel certain the dogs would wish to be nowhere else, other than with their owners. To me, the mental/emotional stresses on the road to hockey's Stanley Cup are roughly analogous, but the tolls taken by bodily exhaustion/injury are not comparable. -- TEC

[Mark Billadeau]

No trial person wants a really independent dog and most farmers need one and some farmers need a *really* independent dog. Stamina would not be high on my list except in the big picture way.

I suspect farmers want and independent dog that is also very natural (needs very little training) and won't want an independent dog if the dog wants to do things in ways the farmer doesn't like (needs extensive training).

 

 

Despite the impression you are giving, many trialers don't want robot dogs; they want dogs that can work on their own without input and will accept direction (biddable). I want a dog who will flank off the pen to stop a sheep from darting off without me telling it to do so in the same way I want a dog to stop a sheep (on it's own) from escaping the pack I'm loading onto a trailer. On the other hand I don't want a dog to not accept a flanking command when it wants to be focused on the one ewe that is looking at it or won't take redirection on an outrun because it sees some of the flock but not the ones over the hill. I also want a dog that will go around the corner of a L-shaped to find sheep and then be willing to accept a redirection because the straight fetch line (natural) goes through two boxwire fencelines that the dog can see me through.

[Debbie Meier]

what does breeding Jake have to do with anything? All dogs have weaknesses, identifying them selecting in a fashion to complement the strengths while trying to improve on the weakness is what selection is all about.

[Debbie Meier]

You brought up the feedlot example as one of a perfectly good trial dog who couldn't do real work. In that sense, yes, you are saying the trial dog is inferior when it comes to doing real work. You don't have to use the actual word to get the meaning across.

actually go back and read the conditions I placed on that dog being a good trial dog, you may come away with a different message.

[Pam Wolf]

re:stamina many factors come into play, stress of the job, stress from the handling, how fit is the dog? Feed can play a big part in stamina. heat tolerance is iMHO related to stamina. Additionally the structure of the dog plays a part in stamina. I see dogs coming off the trial field totally tuckered out and others going the same distances cool and relaxed. Many factors play into stamina