Jump to content
BC Boards
Guest Aria The Border Collie

Demographic of the forum

Recommended Posts

Guest Aria The Border Collie

It's not the Aussie in you. :) It's that you're used to thinking of dogs as defined by how they look. The kennel clubs define them that way. But there's another way of thinking about dogs -- one that preceded kennel clubs. Thinking of dogs as defined by what they can do, what abilities they have. Try making that conceptual jump, into our POV. If you thought of dogs as defined by what they can do, what would make you think the dogs in these pictures are both the same?

 

Oh I definitely see the difference between the two and I understand what you're saying. The purpose of the two dogs is very different and as such the structure and neurological wiring has been altered accordingly. I suppose for me I can see the origin and so I hold on to that since (as you say) I'm used to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's not insult the dog running around the pen in the AKC one while the handler actually herded the sheep by saying it's a trial when even that dog would know the difference between the two if shown the other video. It's likely smarter than the human.

You see why I say any breed of dog can do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's not insult the dog running around the pen in the AKC one while the handler actually herded the sheep by saying it's a trial when even that dog would know the difference between the two if shown the other video. It's likely smarter than the human.

 

But chances are very good that the dog in the AKC "trial" video would be totally incapable of managing the sheep as in the second USBCHA trail, even though it's only a novice trial.

 

And that's the point of the comparison.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's not insult the dog running around the pen in the AKC one while the handler actually herded the sheep by saying it's a trial when even that dog would know the difference between the two if shown the other video. It's likely smarter than the human.

 

That's what I'm saying. The first video is what the AKC condones as a trial and what it means when a bred-for-show dog is given "herding championships" I know there are a couple of different levels in the AKC, but they are nothing compared to a USBCHA or similar trial.

 

This is what people are talking about when they say breeding for show has watered down the working ability of the Border Collie. Could the dog in the AKC video work at the same level as a dog trialing in USBCHA? Some do, some are dual registered AKC and ABCA but I doubt the top Border Collies in the AKC could hold up to the same level of herding as working-bred dogs and therein lies the problem.

 

Put the 10 top AKC dog with the best AKC conformation and herding championships up against 10 of the top USBCHA trial dogs. If the AKC dog can even keep up, I'll never say another word against breeding for conformation again. But I don't think it's ever going to happen.

 

As I said, many people here have experience with the havoc breeding for conformation can wreck on a working breed of dog. That's why people are so protective, they don't want the same thing to happen to the Border Collie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's like there's a fear here. I'm picking up a very defensive, protective undertone. There's no chance of my old farmer neighbour ever wanting to breed my fluffy little show-pony dog with his domesticated wolf-like dogs, nor is there much chance of any other farmer wanting to do it either and so in that sense the breed is safe since (as many have already said) there is still a requirement for the true working dog, unlike the lion-fighting Ridgebacks of centuries past.

plenty

 

From a UK perspective what you say is true.

 

BCs are two a penny here and all but the most ignorant know that they come in all shapes and sizes and are supposed to be able to work sheep. The conformation type is very much in the minority.

 

The situation in the US is different as so many people live lives that mean that they have no contact with the farming world. There are advantages to living in a small country in that respect. I live on the edge of a small town but only have to walk about 3 mins to the nearest farm.

 

Sport breeders will often use working dogs but the mix won't find its way back into the working gene pool.

 

I am against conformation breeding for any breed because it is superficial and just a bad idea, also against sport breeding because it isn't necessary, but I'm not worried about the future of the working dog here because of either.

 

However, this is a US based board so US concerns are going to figure prominently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I might just leave it here since the original question was whether or not there would be any use in me keeping my account here when I don't have a working dog. I think there will be some benefit.

 

We ended up on the Conformation vs Working Dog trail--which I'm sure happens often. I know there's a difference between my dog and the dogs favored here, but since they're classed as the same breed at the moment I don't believe I'm going to be able to find somewhere with detailed information purely from conformation dog owners/breeders, so I'm gonna lurk in the shadows and learn what I can here while trying not to make a nuisance of myself :D

 

Hope everyone has a good night/day!

There's nothing about dogs you can learn from a conformation breeder that you can't find here where you will find a lot more besides.

 

Your pup is likely to show some traits inherited from her antecedents, just not the whole package.

 

Don't be afraid of making a nuisance of yourself. You won't be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I might just leave it here since the original question was whether or not there would be any use in me keeping my account here when I don't have a working dog. I think there will be some benefit.

 

We ended up on the Conformation vs Working Dog trail--which I'm sure happens often. I know there's a difference between my dog and the dogs favored here, but since they're classed as the same breed at the moment I don't believe I'm going to be able to find somewhere with detailed information purely from conformation dog owners/breeders, so I'm gonna lurk in the shadows and learn what I can here while trying not to make a nuisance of myself :D

 

Some people even ask questions about non-border collies. I think it is fair to say most of us appriciate and respect all dogs in general.

 

Hope everyone has a good night/day!

Don't get everyone wrong. Just because you have a show dog doesn't mean that we won't help you with her. She is a beautiful dog and if you ever have questions or feel like adding something to a conversation feel free. However, if you have questions about showing or breeding you probably won't have much support.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't believe I'm going to be able to find somewhere with detailed information purely from conformation dog owners/breeders

 

I suspect there are lots of online discussions going on about show "border collies". It's just a matter of looking for them if that's what you want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since you are planning on spaying her, you might want to check out some of the more recent discussions of the pros and cons of spaying and timing of spaying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm relatively new to border collie world. As a fan of this wonderful breed, I've spent a year and a half just reading, searching, meeting people and breeders, gathering information, playing with other people's bc's, watching them work stock, I've been to out agility club to see how they "work" in sports. If there is a video on yt that has something to do with bc, I've seen it. Some of it multiple times. I've spent nights searching the forums, facebook groups etc.

Border collie is after all, a passion, a way of life. I feel this is the place for people who have years and years of experience and knowledge beyond my imagination. So you can understand the animosity towards the show line and conformation world. I didn't get it myself few months ago, but now I do.

 

I have to admit, this summer we almost bought a puppy from a show line. What got us to turn around and say no? It wasn't the money. It was the idea that I would be supporting something I am inherently against. But if I didn't know better, I would have bought that puppy. The breeder wanted to sell me her best puppy, one that was a huge prospect for showing and breeding. Like many many people who didn't have the beautiful privilege to grow up amongst these dogs, I too originally fell in love with beautiful, rough coated black and white animals who had that look in their eyes that says "intelligence". Now this is where things get interesting. If you try and search "border collie" in youtube, you will get videos of dogs that are working sheep, dogs in trials, dogs doing wonderful tricks, flyball, frisbee, agility.. dogs who are incredibly agile, smart, responsive and cooperative. When you google search border collie and go to google images, there's a whole different story there. First results you get are short, barbie type dogs that resemble bc to the uneducated eye. So many people don't understand this is NOT the same dog at all. They get a blurred image of this dog doing that and think "if I can get a dog that's pretty like this and does that, then that's my ideal dog". No, it isn't.
I didn't explain what got us to even look and contact the breeder of this show litter.. Well, since we fell in love with the breed and decided we will definitely have one some day soon, a LOT of people warned us that this isn't a dog for us, that he can't live in an apartment in the city (we have a lot of green areas, parks, rivers we drive to, every other weekend we go to countryside, we have agility club etc), that he will destroy everything we have, that he will be neurotic, obsessive, he will drive the neighbours mad barking and so on, you get the picture. That agility, tricks and three (or more) active walks and plays won't be enough for him.
Well, since if I'm anything I'm a good researcher, I've contacted many owners who live in very similar conditions (I've even read many threads on the topic on these boards), and what we ended up realizing is that if we want a mellow, no work drive dog, then border collie isn't for us, and it would only be fair to give up on owning one.

I've never wanted a show dog, I'm just not into that. But a show border collie just wouldn't be right for me on so many aspects. Not when I knew what I knew. So instead of conforming and going against my guts, I've given up on the idea of buying a show line bc.


I'm sorry to say, most of these show dogs neither work, neither are capable of working. Some who still have a certain amount of working drive can be found, but considering we are talking about the ultimate working dog, that is a pure blasphemy right there. Working drive in a bc shouldn't be a possible privilege, but what makes the core of this breed.
There shouldn't be a no drive version of this breed under the same name, never. And people should be educated not to want one. There are plenty of breeds out there that are low energy, low or no work drive, beautiful companion dogs who are not the result of ruining a breed.

 

Two weeks after we gave up on the idea of show puppy, we rescued a puppy mill girl from working lines (it's a small country, so it wasn't hard to find out exatly where she came from and her ancestors were actually great working dogs, but she was sold as a puppy to a byb, something that is very very common here). She is the most soft hearted, responsive, sensitive and willing to please dog I have ever met. She is not hyper at all, but is still very active. She is a thunder outside while playing, she picks up tricks and stuff immidiately, but she has an off switch. If I feel like resting, she will rest by my side. If I feel like playing frisbee all the time, she will happily oblige. She is not fluffy or lilac, but she is a companion anyone could dream of. And she is a border collie.

 

That all being said, I'm glad you decided to stay on these boards, since I don't think anyone really could say they don't like a dog, they just don't like what a show dog represents. And after all, we all love our dogs and they are the world to us, and anyone who has a dog can relate to that.

Sorry for the long post. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have really enjoyed reading all these threads. I have a show black and white border who is my second border (both long haired show bred). With our second, we have been attending herding classes once a week. She definatly has the instinct & is amazing to watch but shes just not 'getting it' as fast as the working bred kids. At the moment shes not including us in the picture..she feels her job is to group all the sheep together along the fence & to hold them there. If one breaks, she needs to decide very fast what she needs to do..Usually that involves threatening the flock with her stare & bolting to bring stray back. Yes, shes not there yet, but we all have alot of fun!

Agility & Rally is more our piece of cake :)

 

I agree there is a difference in working & show bred, but I also just love the long coats. I love brushing & trimming her paws & I know River feels pretty special after.

 

I am interested to know the difference between a cattle bred bc and a sheep bred bc. Is it to do with the area of the animal being herded, such as face or hocks?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Show-bred and sports-bred dogs often may have bits and pieces of the complex package that constitutes working ability (these are, after all, refined predatory behaviors) but it's like having a car or bike missing parts or with defective parts - you may be able to get somewhere but you won't get far.

 

The dogs were originally bred primarily to work sheep but are often suited to w.ork various forms of livestock. Generally, those bred with cattle work in mind may be more assertive and more likely to be pushy and ready to grip. A lot depends on the nature of the stock you have to work and the type of dog that is best suited.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure about everywhere, but here a cattle bred collie is one with parents that work cattle and a sheep bred is one that has parents working sheep.

 

Edit: oops I misread the question!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Show-bred and sports-bred dogs often may have bits and pieces of the complex package that constitutes working ability (these are, after all, refined predatory behaviors) but it's like having a car or bike missing parts or with defective parts - you may be able to get somewhere but you won't get far.

 

 

I've seen a lot of mentioning sports-bred dogs. What do you mean by that exactly? I've never really heard of the expression on other boards and on fb groups. It's usually just "show bred" vs "workers". Thanks :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My sheep bred BC is soft, willing to go slow, sensitive, reads very subtle signs, reacts calmly and quietly, thinks that bumping stock with his nose for a split second is over the top assertive. He just knows his stock is going to cooperate with him with little fuss, and he likes it that way. He doesn't like to be challenged

 

My cattle bred BC barges in where angels fear to tread, he isn't the least bit sensitive or subtle, he's very grippy. He reads subtle signs too, but his reaction is completely different. He just knows his stock is not going to cooperate with him, and he likes it that way. He likes to be challenged.

 

This example is really breeding plus personality quirks, so others will have totally different experiences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cool..thanks very interesting!

 

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My understanding is a sport collie is designed with sports in mind not herding ability.

 

I was asking because all the working dogs bred here are bred for working with stock first and foremost. These dogs also excel at dogs sports, but I haven't heard of someone breeding dogs for sports mainly. Most of these dogs that are kept as pets are obviously sport dogs, since most of them (us) don't have farm and sheep.. not because they were bred for it, but because they love it and it keeps them challenged. More than "just pets" dogs, at least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that 'Sporter Collies' are more often found here, in the USA. There are breeders that are breeding these dogs specifically for handlers who want a very drivey, agile and athletic dog to compete in agility or flyball. What can also come along with that package is an inability to calm down. (Short response. Others can expand.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My agility instructor has a sport bred dog. They are bred for go, unfortunately, hers doesn't have a stop. She can't even bring her own dog to agility class because it is a screaming maniac when anyone else is going. When we first started, she was totally floored by how my dogs just lie quietly waiting their turns and then they turn on, take their turn, and promptly turn off again. She was even more floored when she saw how Gideon lies down and crawls over to little puppies to greet them. Her dog pounces and she is afraid to let it meet any other dogs, nevermind little puppies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...