Rescue Pups Vs. Breeder Pups

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At one point in my life I decided I wanted a Standard Poodle puppy. I knew several of the breed and did my homework. Then I started calling breeders. It was the same with every breeder I spoke with. Have you ever had a Poodle? I answered truthfully, no. For them, that was the end of the conversation. It didn't matter that I was employed as a vet tech, had worked as a groomer, did professional obedience training and was involved in Collie rescue. After a dozen or so I gave up.

 

Later I decided that Poodles were really space aliens and that you had to have had one to get one because then you wouldn't be horrified and call the National Guard if the "Poodle" fell asleep and their dog-hologram stopped working. Poodle breeders are all people who have been abducted by aliens and brainwashed to run "Poodle" (alien) nurseries to build up their numbers so they can take over the planet. They almost succeeded in the 1950's, but then Lassie came along and people wanted Collie pups. I guess being in the Collie rescue biz must have really gotten me on a black-list.

[Bella B.]

Now, I believe that this varies greatly and to each his own, but I like going through the 'puppyhood' stages. Again, this is a personal choice, for instance I like chocolate and someone else likes vanilla, but I have a lot of fun watching puppies develop and mature into the dogs they will become. I would really appreciate it if I could find a good, reputable breeder on the East Coast (any ideas?), however I am wondering now if a BC breeder would allow me to have one of their puppies since I have never owned one before...? I also don't exactly have a BC's dream living conditions. I would be able to provide multiple runs (at least an hour each) as well as ample amounts of play time, obedience, and agility a day, but I most certainly do not have a farm. He/she would only be alone 1-2 hours max a day (grocery shopping, other errands). I suppose, as previously mentioned, that it matters more what you do with he/she than it matters about how much space you have, but I am still mildly concerned that a breeder may see this as an orange/red flag...

[CptJack]

I don't think space or not being on a farm is going to be a problem for most breeders, but living in a city MIGHT. My BC certainly doesn't run multiple hours a day + agility a day and frankly though she's too young for it now that's not in the cards for her as she gets older, either. Call me a hard butt, but I don't have 4 hours a day to dedicate to exercising a dog and I don't want to. My schedule is variable because of life. She's got an off switch, she can keep it and use it.

 

Space isn't a big deal, as we've already discussed.

 

I think you may hit some trouble because you live in an urban setting. It's not a space issue, it's an environmental one. BCs are super, super responsive to motion and sound and living in a busy environment doesn't necessarily mean they stop reacting to it. In fact, it can build up and get worse with time. Either way, the only way you're going to know is to talk to individuals.

Unfortunately, I can't recommend anyone specific. I'm on the east coast, but my dog came from somebody who typically breeds their own dogs for their own farm, but had an oops litter.

[Bella B.]

I don't think space or not being on a farm is going to be a problem for most breeders, but living in a city MIGHT. My BC certainly doesn't run multiple hours a day + agility a day and frankly though she's too young for it now that's not in the cards for her as she gets older, either. Call me a hard butt, but I don't have 4 hours a day to dedicate to exercising a dog and I don't want to. My schedule is variable because of life. She's got an off switch, she can keep it and use it.

 

Space isn't a big deal, as we've already discussed.

 

I think you may hit some trouble because you live in an urban setting. It's not a space issue, it's an environmental one. BCs are super, super responsive to motion and sound and living in a busy environment doesn't necessarily mean they stop reacting to it. In fact, it can build up and get worse with time. Either way, the only way you're going to know is to talk to individuals.

 

Unfortunately, I can't recommend anyone specific. I'm on the east coast, but my dog came from somebody who typically breeds their own dogs for their own farm, but had an oops litter.

I see... I don't exactly live in the craziness of downtown Manhattan, I live on the upper, upper westside, but I suppose that doesn't make much of a difference. Truthfully, I am trying to get a BC because of their athletic ability as well as their mixed blessing intelligence. I love to run and hike, but my current dog does not fit the bill. I do hope I can find a breeder who won't mind his/her dog living in an urban environment as long as the same BC mental/physical stimulation is met and it is not too stressful for the dog.

[CptJack]

I see... I don't exactly live in the craziness of downtown Manhattan, I live on the upper, upper westside, but I suppose that doesn't make much of a difference. Truthfully, I am trying to get a BC because of their athletic ability as well as their mixed blessing intelligence. I love to run and hike, but my current dog does not fit the bill. I do hope I can find a breeder who won't mind his/her dog living in an urban environment as long as the same BC mental/physical stimulation is met and it is not too stressful for the dog.

 

Just talk to some people. Most breeders will know their dogs and what they produce. It's not like no BC could handle it, it's more that not every BC will be able to.

[Debbie Meier]

While the breed is known for it's athleticness and intelligence, that only goes so far. There are also other traits that can make any individual pup ideal for you or a nightmare. I think that is why so many of us steer people toward a older dog or even a older pup more towards the 6 month mark, because you have a way better idea as to what you are dealing with, where as with a 8 week old pup sometimes they don't always end up being what we had envisioned, so you have to be prepared to accept them for better or for worse.

[GentleLake]

My first rescue was a "lab mix" according to the rescue. Possibly, but it soon became apparent that the mix was with a sight hound making him a lurcher.

 

Sorry this is tangential to this thread but I have a question.

 

I thought lurchers were wither herding breeds or terrier breeds crossed with sighthounds. Are other types crossed with sighthounds also considered lurchers?

[Bella B.]

I will definitely do some talking once I find a breeder(s). I agree very much that it depends on the individual dog and as you mentioned, any good breeder will know what they're dogs can or can't handle.

[Debbie Meier]

But, yes, a good breeder should be able to tell you if their pups will suit your situation, the stumbling block as I see it, is not falling prey to the breeders that seem to believe that their dogs will suit what ever situation, more of the tell you what you want to hear type. I don't think they do it on purpose, but the practice does cause some hardship for the owners.

 

It may be more difficult for someone new to the breed to tell the different between a good breeder who has a real good handle on what they are producing and one that may not. Probably the old saying "the proof is in the pudding" would apply, look for references by seeing if you can find others that have pups from that breeder. Don't just use those provided by the breeder, see if you can find outside references.

[Bella B.]

While the breed is known for it's athleticness and intelligence, that only goes so far. There are also other traits that can make any individual pup ideal for you or a nightmare. I think that is why so many of us steer people toward a older dog or even a older pup more towards the 6 month mark, because you have a way better idea as to what you are dealing with, where as with a 8 week old pup sometimes they don't always end up being what we had envisioned, so you have to be prepared to accept them for better or for worse.

As Marilyn Monroe once said "I'm selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best." It does seem to be a bit of a gamble, a puppy that is, but I'm fairly positive that it is a risk I am willing to take. I think.

[CptJack]

Border Collies are a little weird for me, because they have this reputation. In some ways it's deserved - I mean people cautioning others to make danged sure they really want a BC is a good thing! It's just more and more as Molly gets older, the more I read and the more I learn I'm not sure the reputation they have for being difficult is really for the right reasons.

 

Are they athletic, high energy and intelligent? Absolutely, yes.

 

They'll warn you until the end of time that you need to exercise the dog for eight billion hours a day, even though in my experience most do okay with a lot less than that (Lol). They won't tell you that what they really need is to be really and truly engaged with their handler and mindless running won't cut it. And even that endless exercise can be BAD for them, and you need to teach calm indoor behavior, not encourage nutty behavior.

 

They'll tell you they'll herd the cats, but they won't tell you that what they often are is dogs with a lot of prey-drive who want to chase everything that moves, from dust motes to grasshoppers to shadows to CARS, and that they can become absolutely and utterly obsessed (in a clinical sense) with doing that. Or that if they're allowed to 'herd' the cat for a while as part of an ongoing game and catch the cat they may very well kill it.

 

They'll tell you the dog's smart, but they won't tell you that smart doesn't necessarily mean the dog does what you want it to, or that that the dog will learn things you don't mean to teach, because part of that intelligence is developing connections fast. Sure, she housebroke in about 5 minutes but she also learned how to flush the toilet if she wanted a fresh drink (ugh) and for fun, and that 'losing' her toy under the couch would get me to stop what I was doing and interact with her in even less time.

 

I think, basically, that BCs are awesome and in a lot of ways they are over-hyped, but in others people just... don't always have a clear picture of what really is involved. It's not the energy that gets people into trouble, it's just a weird set of expectations of the dogs. The expectation seems to be that they're going to need a lot of exercise and they'll be fine with that. But that's really not how it works.

 

ETA: This isn't directed at you in particular, just something your quote and 'I think, maybe' and this whole thread made me think of - and has been making me think of for the past few days.

[mum24dog]

 

Sorry this is tangential to this thread but I have a question.

 

I thought lurchers were wither herding breeds or terrier breeds crossed with sighthounds. Are other types crossed with sighthounds also considered lurchers?

Yes - usually a working breed x sighthound, not necessarily herding or terrier. Or you can have a bull lurcher which is a bull breed x sighthound. Staffies and PBs may have "terrier" in their label but no way are they terriers.

[Cass C]

Also keep in mind just because they are easy to train doesn't mean that Anyone could train them. To the average dog you saying 'sit' means sit down, regardless of what hand signal or inflection you say it with. With a border collie they will sometimes overthink a command and because you moved your hand differently or maybe said it a little different 'sit' must mean something new.

 

My puppy Lily only understands 'off' if we say it in a serious way and point where we want her. Otherwise she just stares at me. I could eventually train her to understand the command just by the word, but as long as she understands in anyway I'm happy. With other things I have trained her to understand sloppy commands, such as sit, down, and come.

 

Sloppy training only gets you so far with a border collie, so make sure you are very consistent.

 

Edit: also I agree that exercise isn't the main thing to keeping them happy. They need to be trained to be calm as well, such as an off switch.

[GentleLake]

Yes - usually a working breed x sighthound, not necessarily herding or terrier. Or you can have a bull lurcher which is a bull breed x sighthound. Staffies and PBs may have "terrier" in their label but no way are they terriers.

 

So they can be just about any sighthound mix, then, other than, say, toy breeds?

 

I really didn't know much about lurchers before I adopted what I thought was a border collie (or close mix) puppy at ~6 months old. She grew up to be a lurcher . . . and with a totally different temperament than I was expecting. Smart as any border collie I've ever known, but very high prey drive, little desire to please for its own sake (for food rewards, yes, but just because I've asked her? Um, not so much.) and very demanding and manipulative (she tries to train and/or outsmart me). She's also dog reactive, though I don't think that has anything to do with the mix.

 

She's been a learning experience, that's for sure. Amazing at lure coursing, but you can't compete here with lurchers, only purebreds.

[mum24dog]

I have always gotten rescues, though not puppies, and have never had a problem with them wanting to do my chosen sports/activities. I think with older dogs you can better tell what their personality is like and how active they will be. I've never had a problem with structure being an issue with my rescued BCs or my rescued mixes.

 

 

 

Me neither. The notion that there is a right shape and size for sport success is a total fallacy. You just have to look around to see that.

 

This time I wanted to have the influence on my dog's upbringing that I haven't had before so I chose to buy a pup.

 

I didn't chose the breeder because I think the pup will have superior agility talent. Many decent working breeders could provide a pup with the raw ability and it is up to me to make the best of it. I chose this one because of their reputation for producing dogs with good temperament. That is the most important thing for me, whether or not he sets the agility world on fire.

[mum24dog]

 

So they can be just about any sighthound mix, then, other than, say, toy breeds?

 

I really didn't know much about lurchers before I adopted what I thought was a border collie (or close mix) puppy at ~6 months old. She grew up to be a lurcher . . . and with a totally different temperament than I was expecting. Smart as any border collie I've ever known, but very high prey drive, little desire to please for its own sake (for food rewards, yes, but just because I've asked her? Um, not so much.) and very demanding and manipulative (she tries to train and/or outsmart me). She's also dog reactive, though I don't think that has anything to do with the mix.

 

She's been a learning experience, that's for sure. Amazing at lure coursing, but you can't compete here with lurchers, only purebreds.

Oh yes, you have to make it worth their while to cooperate but what a sense of achievement when they do.

 

And extremely clever in a problem solving way. I love them and would have another but only if I had fewer dogs because you need eyes in the back of your head?

 

Do you only have access to AKC competition where you are? If so that's a shame.

[GentleLake]

Do you only have access to AKC competition where you are? If so that's a shame.

 

There's AKC and the American Sighthound Field Association, but they have a select list of purebreds that they allow to run (I don't think they're all AKC breeds; they recognize dogs from some non AKC registries), and a shorter list of "Limited Breeds" (pretty rare breeds) that can run in a limited class. But no lurchers allowed.

 

It is a shame, because Tansy's really good at it, even though I don't much see the point of it (I get sheepdog trials, and I know sighthounds have a purpose, but this just seems kind of silly to me -- no real training or handler involvement). But it would be a good outlet for her. Unfortunately, too expensive for me to travel 75+ miles one way to the nearest fun events where she can run and then have to pay for each run once we get there.

 

And, yes, I do need eyes in the back of my head. I have to be on her all the time to make sure she follows through on my cues. If she doesn't feel like it, she'll just blow me off if she doesn't think there will be consequences for not doing what I ask.

 

Are they slow maturing in your experience? She's almost 3 and I'm still waiting for her to grow up. She can be a real brat.

[mum24dog]

 

There's AKC and the American Sighthound Field Association, but they have a select list of purebreds that they allow to run (I don't think they're all AKC breeds; they recognize dogs from some non AKC registries), and a shorter list of "Limited Breeds" (pretty rare breeds) that can run in a limited class. But no lurchers allowed.

 

It is a shame, because Tansy's really good at it, even though I don't much see the point of it (I get sheepdog trials, and I know sighthounds have a purpose, but this just seems kind of silly to me -- no real training or handler involvement). But it would be a good outlet for her. Unfortunately, too expensive for me to travel 75+ miles one way to the nearest fun events where she can run and then have to pay for each run once we get there.

 

And, yes, I do need eyes in the back of my head. I have to be on her all the time to make sure she follows through on my cues. If she doesn't feel like it, she'll just blow me off if she doesn't think there will be consequences for not doing what I ask.

 

Are they slow maturing in your experience? She's almost 3 and I'm still waiting for her to grow up. She can be a real brat.

 

Sorry, I missed that you were talking about lure coursing.

 

I suppose many might be late to mature. They do seem to remain goofy for a long time.

 

Mine wasn't too bad in that respect. Self sufficient and streetwise from the time I got him at around 12 months.

[geonni banner]

Smart as any border collie I've ever known, but very high prey drive, little desire to please for its own sake (for food rewards, yes, but just because I've asked her? Um, not so much.) and very demanding and manipulative (she tries to train and/or outsmart me). She's also dog reactive, though I don't think that has anything to do with the mix.

 

She's been a learning experience, that's for sure. Amazing at lure coursing, but you can't compete here with lurchers, only purebreds.

When I got my Lurcher I had to learn dog training/handling all over again. I trained professionally for several years. But this dog was a whole new ball game. Housebreaking was harder, (I got her as a pup) and although it had never taken me longer than a few minutes to teach a "sit" to even the most thick-headed retriever, this dog took 3 months to sit promptly and reliably. She wanted a reason to do things. It wasn't that she was thick or stubborn; she just didn't see the point. I was forced to reassess everything I knew about dogs.

 

I ended up at three years of age with a dog that was relatively obedient, had a rock-solid recall, could be trusted off leash, and was clean in the house, and didn't destroy things. Up until Grace, I had push-button obedient dogs. After Grace I began to feel that a lot of what I had considered important was, in fact, unnecessary. It was even a power-trip.

 

Since Grace, I feel that as long as my dog comes promptly when she's called, sits and stays promptly when told, is clean and quiet in the house and doesn't inflict unwanted attention on people, then that dog is trained. If the dog enjoys learning more - well, and good. We'll do it. But if not - well, she has her own life, wants and needs. We have a covenant. You do what I need you to do, and you are otherwise free to do what you need to do.

 

It is a different way to live with a dog, and not so convenient. But ultimately more satisfying. I give her food, shelter, care, love, companionship and protection. She gives me joy, love, companionship and important life lessons. This is what Grace taught me, and my Border Collie, Sugarfoot is still teaching me.

 

My advice (though you didn't ask for it) is to listen to your Lurcher. Listen from a place of stillness. They mostly speak softly. But like any dog, they do speak. You just have to learn the language.

[juliepoudrier]

Coming back to this after a weekend away at a wonderful sheepdog trial in a part of Virginia where there is no cell service (so completely disconnected for three days, which isn't necessarily a bad thing), so my apologies for moving backward in the discussion a bit.

 

Rushdoggie,

I wasn't speaking specifically to your comments. I have friends/acquaintances who spend a great deal of time evaluating puppies as agility prospects based on structure before anything else. My point was that structure often changes as an animal grows. We've all seen it: beautiful, correct foals that manage to grow into fugly horses; perfect little puppies that end up "pet quality" in that other venue, etc.

 

So it stands to reason that unless one really, really wants a puppy, a better choice for many folks who want to be involved in a sport (especially if for fun or for getting their feet wet, so to speak) would be to go with a grown or mostly grown dog, when the final structure is evident right in front of one's eyes. Heck, you could even have various body parts X-rayed for, say, an 18-month old adolescent and have a reasonably good idea if there are any problems that would actually prevent the dog from doing the sport of choice, not to mention you'd have an idea of the dog's personality and temperament (the latter with respect to the sport of choice).

 

Yes, you can look at a baby puppy and make some fairly good assumptions, but I see so many people competing with dogs that aren't even known to be purebred border collies (100%) that I fail to understand the reasoning that one has to get a puppy from well bred parents to guarantee (or come closer to guaranteeing) a good structure for the sport of interest. For example, I bred two dogs, one small and athletic, the other medium sized and athletic. One of the pups (well, now 8), who was the runt of the litter, we now joke that he's a great dane in disguise. He's tall and narrow. Neither of his parents are built that way. And he wasn't neutered young. He's now the biggest dog in that litter. I don't think there was anything about his structure at 8 weeks that would have foretold his final structure. He looks nothing like he did as a pup (except for his color).

 

So, I'm not arguing against people getting puppies if that's what they really want; I just disagree with the contention that getting a puppy gives one some sort of better chance of having the best structure for the job at hand. There are plenty of mixed breeds that are beautifully built and athletic. I think it goes without saying that I'm not talking about the corgi x rotties or dachshund x pittie mixes of the world, but a border collie mixed with something with the end result being a medium sized dog of reasonable and athletic proportions shouldn't be any less capable physically than a purebred border collie, generally speaking.

 

So I'll reiterate: If someone wants to raise a puppy to do sports with, I've got no problem with that and would suggest, as has been suggested, that the future owner try to find a well-bred working litter. But I would not make the argument that a well-bred litter is going to get one a dog with a better structure beyond that well-bred should equal good structure in the most general terms. I just don't think one can make the claims that some make (and apparently can make good money on) that you can look a litter of puppies who are all pretty equal and choose the best dog for agility based on its structure at 4, 6, or 8 weeks. My opinion.

 

J.