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Advice needed on how to pick a good training facility


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Mya seems to be going through a second fear phase now that she turned 1, even a leaf dropping on her from a tree made her jump. She does not get a lot of exposure to a lot of different things other than I take her in to town and we walk around the Home Depot, Pet store, and park. Not a dog park so I cannot let her loose. So part of it will be for socialization as well. She is not fearful of any dog but people are another story.

 

So therefore I am going to check out a few training places today, got some consultations set up so I can actually see the places.

 

I just don't know how to tell which will be better. The ones I have set up have a variety of things you can take besides just obedience. They have swimming, which Mya does not want to go into any water it seems, dock diving, agility, scent training, and cart pulling to name a few. They have trainers of varying degrees with a lot of years of experience. One lets you use their agility center inside and outside for a yearly fee that is quite minimum I think.

 

I don't know that we will get into anything like agility but if she seems to really like one and takes to it we may you never know. My husband also would like to see how their equipment is built as he is planning on making her some things in the back yard once we learn how to actually do it properly for her to run on them, jump, etc. and now that she is 1.

 

Any suggestions?

 

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Yes, observation.

 

Cleanliness is important - check for that.

 

Structural integrity - are the buildings and equipment in good repair - you want them to be profitable enough to keep their facility in good repair.

 

Their "rules" are important. Do they have good safety precautions in place (people must prove innoculation)? Do dogs that act unduly aggressively have to be set up on a private program until that issue is solved, etc.? The rules should make you feel as if your animal will be safe and in good hands. Rules are like the windows to training places souls :)

 

Other than that, as Kristine says, observation under normal conditions - an "audit" - is your best best.

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Thanks for the replies, I have written those items down. And yes both require proof of being innoculated by the vet.

 

I felt best about these 2 I am checking out today because they actually ask you to have a consultation first, meet the person and the dog, see how Mya will react during the consultation to get an idea of what they think would be best for her. They did say we could see the facilities during the consultation also and to make a list of any issues I specifically would like to address.

 

Also the one that has swimming also has hydrotherapy which could be good if she gets injured jumping. I just thought this could be good for her and me both to learn the training and have a fun activity while doing it.

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Good luck - I would love to hear how your consultation went, what the facility was like, etc.

Well, I don't know if I know more or are just more confused than ever now!! When we took the classes at PetSmart, they told me I needed a harness which I did not understand because Mya has never really pulled while on lead, she usually glances to see where I am especially if on the long lead and I let her go on a head a bit.

 

The first one with the swimming pool, I did like that we were in a room by ourselves at first with the consult and she just wanted me to let Mya go around the room and people walked in and out during the consult. I assumed she was seeing if Mya would be aggressive and bark or growl which she did not. She would be one of the trainers we would have, there would be 3 in a class of 15 dogs. She took me around the whole place, all the different things they offered, let me observe dogs going into the swimming pool and how they do it, observe a class, and answered all of my questions fully. She did tell me to not bring her in the harness and to just use a flat collar for the training so it would be easier to just give a tug on the collar to correct when necessary, she seemed to think that would be all Mya would need. We must take the Novice class first and then we could go into classes where they literally go to the streets to teach dogs, and have a complete off leash class. They also do the scent training, dock diving, swimming classes (they actually have life jackets for the dogs) as she says this boosts their confidence also, and the cart pulling. I had to fill out forms everything about Mya and any issues I wished to deal with. I would have said at first the class I watched I was kind of not impressed by a couple of the dogs not doing near as well as I thought until I talked to the owners afterwards and the lady said when she came six weeks prior her dog would not even walk into the building (her dog was terrified of other dogs) and she was so surprised and happy that her dog came up to Mya and was friendly with her. So as my mom always says don't judge a book by its cover so to speak, this dog had come leaps and bounds in six weeks and even went in the water for a swim which the lady thought she would never do. I was impressed how the dogs listened to the trainer but the trainer was friendly and always smiling. The dogs were learning but enjoying the experience. She was also up front and open stating they could take the dogs and train them for people but honestly the training will not stick unless people are also willing to work and train their dogs at home also. They also have agility here for just for training, they do not enter into competitions; however, the lady that would be our trainer says she enters 2 of her dogs for competitions and trains them there.

 

The second one I went to where you can get a year round pass to use the agility equipment, not so much. the consult was done by a young girl who barely looked at Mya. The class would have 25 dogs in it, with 3 trainers the first week or 2 and then only 1 trainer for 25 dogs!! They insist you buy an 18 dollar collar with prongs on it and you cannot take classes if you do not. I know my daughter uses one of those on her dog but she is 65 pounds husky/lab/german shepherd mix who will not stop pulling when on a leash. I watched part of a class and the dogs did seem to be obeying very well but they were literally pretty much on top of each each in the room and it looked like an old war movie with the german shepherd dogs marching, all the dogs seemed stiff and mechanical. So I think that one is definitely out. I want Mya to be trained but I do not want a guard dog. I want her and I to learn and have fun together while we are doing it. They also require the owners to come to a 2-1/2 hour meeting before even starting the training without their dogs and then will have at least 2 hours of homework a night before the first training class. I cannot imagine making Mya train for 2 hours a night at this point just turning 1. We do training while playing for like an hour but then she seems tired of it and does not want to do it anymore and is ready for rest, but maybe they didn't mean it would be with the dog all 2 hours. It just seemed more like an army camp.

 

But anyways I have been to 3 different training places now and have been told 3 different things to put Mya in, basically 3 different training techniques and styles. Talk about having your head confused.

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Wow! Talk about B&W. Obviously the first place sounds like the one to attend - for a lot of reasons. Not the least of which is: "The dogs were learning, but enjoying the experience."

 

I hope all goes well.

 

Re: using a harness at PetSmart -- I have heard that PetSmart has its own approach to dog training to which all the trainers must adhere. Someone, somewhere along the line decided that harnesses were the way to go? (And the cynical side of me says that many people will not have harnesses, so they will have to buy them someplace. And guess what? You are already at PetSmart where you can buy a harness.) Here, at the local PetSmart, I know someone who applied to be a trainer/salesperson at PetSmart. She is a long-time dog owner, member of the local training club and has volunteered to teach classes at the training club - in other words, quite experienced. She was turned down because they prefer to train their 'trainers'. i.e. the trainers are taught how to train dogs - the PetSmart way.

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What was wrong with the first place, d112358?

 

I'd have ruled the second one out the instant they said you had to have a prong collar to even begin. Class size is also a huge drawback, imo, especially with only 3 trainers (and 1 after 2 weeks?) No way can you get enough attention there even if the methods are good, which I highly doubt.

 

I was also turned down at PetSmart when they fist opened here. The don't seem to want anyone with any prior experience training dogs.

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Yikes, the second place sounds like a pass... I'm amazed they require you purchase a prong collar just to attend any of their classes. That seems pretty extreme to me. :/

 

Per the harness verses collar question, I think you really need to find what works best for you. I never ever wanted to try a harness with my boy (I was told it would promote pulling on the leash) but when he came up lame and needed 60 - 90 days of light activity only (no running) I decided to purchase one. It was *much* more comfortable for him to wear on our long, slow, meandering walks. He could easily sniff, explore and have extra mobility in the harness that his regular flat collar and leash didn't offer. He's been back on normal activity for about a year now but I still find myself using the harness instead of the collar when we are taking longer on leash walks. Now, if we're going for an off leash romp or if we're going someplace where I need to have better control over him (retail store, busy streets, etc.) I throw on the flat collar and use that.

 

Needless to say I'm glad I tried the harness, which I was so opposed to in the beginning, because it's really ended up working well for us. As you've already noticed, three training facilities all had different collar requirements and clearly they can't all be right. ;) I think you should at least try the flat collar if you end up attending classes at the first place and decide what works best for you and Mya.

 

As a side note, I like the idea of trying a variety of different activities with Mya. It'll be fun to try out a bunch of stuff and see what you both like best!! :)

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I use a prong collar on my GSD (90 lbs. and acts like he is part bulldozer) and I would run from anyone that told me I had to have a prong collar just to enter a class. You have a young Border Collie and they know very little about you and your puppy. How can they know you will need a prong collar? Also, in a class with 25 dogs you are not going to accomplish much and I can't see how the trainer(s) will really get to know you and your dog and your goals and needs.

 

I like your description of the place with the swimming pool. It sounds like they have a variety of classes you could try and having access to a swimming pool for your pup would be wonderful!

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The class would have 25 dogs in it, with 3 trainers the first week or 2 and then only 1 trainer for 25 dogs!!

 

Just as a point of comparison, I limit my class sizes to 12 in Puppy K (with 2 helpers, so a 1/4 ratio), 8 dogs to companion pet classes with 1 helper (so a 1/4 ratio) and 6 to my class to prep dogs for Rally class or Competition Obedience class (which has pre-requistites of Intermediate Obedience or instructor approval) with just me (so a 1/6 ratio).

 

Thats too many dogs in one class. Crazy.

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Wow! Talk about B&W. Obviously the first place sounds like the one to attend - for a lot of reasons. Not the least of which is: "The dogs were learning, but enjoying the experience."

 

I hope all goes well.

 

Re: using a harness at PetSmart -- I have heard that PetSmart has its own approach to dog training to which all the trainers must adhere. Someone, somewhere along the line decided that harnesses were the way to go? (And the cynical side of me says that many people will not have harnesses, so they will have to buy them someplace. And guess what? You are already at PetSmart where you can buy a harness.) Here, at the local PetSmart, I know someone who applied to be a trainer/salesperson at PetSmart. She is a long-time dog owner, member of the local training club and has volunteered to teach classes at the training club - in other words, quite experienced. She was turned down because they prefer to train their 'trainers'. i.e. the trainers are taught how to train dogs - the PetSmart way.

Whilst PetSmartmay well but commercially driven in recommending a harness, for an insecure dog a comfortable harness can give confidence. I don't know whether it works in a similar way to a body wrap or thunder shirt but it does balance the dog and allow the dog more freedom of what to do with its head.

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I can say at petsmart there were only 6 of us, and most of the time 5 showed up, but I was not impressed and it was in the store all the time, the room small.

 

I am signing up with the first group for the classes that begin the first of November. I liked that the trainer knew all the dogs by name, spoke to all of them, encouraged one lady that did not think her dog would like the water to give it a try and see, after six weeks she seemed to feel the dog would really like it, and she did like it and wanted to go back around again, so she seemed to really know the dogs not just their names. She said if I felt any time I was not getting something I could also schedule some time with her after class and we could work on it individually.

 

I would like to find one where we can stick with it and get good training, have fun, and not be switching techniques. I have confused her I think with now using the collar instead of the harness. She had been trained to stand at the door and after I put one foot in the harness she would actually lift the other and put it in and wait for me to click it. We only used the harness when going out, I did not leave it on her all the time. I had moved her back on a shorter lead as she had become lapse in listening to commands the first time, and I can say with the flat collar a slight tug is all I have needed to correct her if she does not listen the first time to my commands and she snaps to it whereas in the harness she was ignoring me more it seemed so for now I will use the flat collar. We had used a harness in the past on our daughter's yorkie because he pulled and would not stop in a flat collar and would actually choke himself so I guess I just thought with Pet smart that it would protect their throats from being injured but it does not seem to be a problem with Mya so the flat collar it is.

 

Taking the Novice class will be a good refresher and then we can start signing up for the others. I would like to do the swimming with her as she seemed very leery of water this past summer, and I really think she would love the scent class as we hide her toys now and let her find them and she does so way too fast I think LOL, so it may even help provide us with some more mind games for her.

 

So for now we will work on our training here at home for the next couple of weeks and then hopefully be able to get started on having some good fun around other dogs. I want her to have good dog manners especially. She is not afraid of any dog and wants to play with them all.

 

Thanks for the tips and advice. It is kind of hard sometimes to judge just seeing something one time but since the second trains german shepherd guard dogs and insisted on that collar before I could even take a class I did not think it was for us. I have not had any experience with that type of prong collar but I did not think it was something I needed for Mya.

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Whilst PetSmartmay well but commercially driven in recommending a harness, for an insecure dog a comfortable harness can give confidence. I don't know whether it works in a similar way to a body wrap or thunder shirt but it does balance the dog and allow the dog more freedom of what to do with its head.

IMHO, I don't believe in a "one size fits all" approach. I certainly don't mind using a harness (I have several), but to go to a class with the expectation that every dog will require a harness just isn't necessary. I prefer a training facility that takes a more individualized approach.

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I'm guessing d112358 hasn't been back on to respond yet, so I'm going to go ahead and say what my concern is about the first of the places you visited.

 

She did tell me to not bring her in the harness and to just use a flat collar for the training so it would be easier to just give a tug on the collar to correct when necessary, she seemed to think that would be all Mya would need.

 

This suggests to me that they use a correction based approach, and that they'd be willing to go beyond a slight "tug" on the collar to achieve results.

 

Personally, I wouldn't be so willing to jump into a class there without actually seeing a class in progress as an observer, and asking a lot of questions about their methods.

 

They may be fine, but they also may be using techniques that would make me uncomfortable. I'd want more information if it were me.

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This suggests to me that they use a correction based approach, and that they'd be willing to go beyond a slight "tug" on the collar to achieve results.

 

Well, what it says is that they would use a tug on a flat collar as a maximum correction. How big a part corrections play in their training approach, how frequent such corrections would be, and how hard the tug would be is not discernible from that quote. One could read into it that the training is "correction-based," that the dogs are being tugged a lot and that the tugs are severe. It is equally open to the interpretation that the training uses occasional mild tugs on the flat collar as a correction.

 

The place sounds good to me, FWIW. Since you were able to observe a class, and your impression was that "the dogs listened to the trainer," "the trainer was friendly and always smiling" and "the dogs were learning but enjoying the experience," it sounds like you made a good choice. I hope the place turns out to be both beneficial and fun -- please let us know how it goes.

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I've seen a number of shut-down dogs coming into agility from jerk-and-praise foundations, so I don't like to see leash correction on the table in foundation classes (this is an ideology thing and it's been talked to death in other threads). These dogs are generally obedient but flat and harder to motivate. Some have weird handling issues and throw every type of appeasement gesture under the sun at you - which some people interpret as a happy dog but is closer to the canine equivalent of nervous laughter.

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IMHO, I don't believe in a "one size fits all" approach. I certainly don't mind using a harness (I have several), but to go to a class with the expectation that every dog will require a harness just isn't necessary. I prefer a training facility that takes a more individualized approach.

 

In principle I agree, but lots of classes insist on all dogs starting with a flat collar. They may or may not advise individual clients otherwise further down the line but their presumption is that their methods will work for the majority of dogs. The only difference between that and requiring a harness at the outset is that most people won't have to buy an extra piece of kit.

 

Of course some harnesses work in a similar way to a prong collar by digging into sensitive parts of the dog if they pull and some are more benign. We don't know what sort PetSmart are promoting.

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Well I won't know until November now as I signed up for the classes that start on a Saturday in November now. It will be much easier for Mya and I to make to this class rather than the one during the week after I get off work and would be rushing.

 

I did watch a class in session almost to the end before I had to leave. Different dogs had different things on, some did have harnesses but these were bigger dogs like pitbulls so I am thinking that was probably a safety feature. Their paperwork you have to fill out does say if the dogs show any aggression they will be asked to leave and you can make arrangements with the trainer later if you would like (probably again for private lessons at first). I never saw any of the people really have to tug on the dogs much at all in the class I watched. Even the one that came leaps and bounds she said was not pulling all that much on her collar. Again I am assuming that this trainer just thought this was probably all Mya needed and with walking her at lunch she has responded very well to it. She has never really pulled on the leash though and always walked well. The dogs all had their tails wagging and looking to their people walking them. The trainers did not have to offer much in the way of help but this was a graduating class also. As i said I watched this lady through the swimming part (with 2 other trainers as well) and the actual training part. I never saw her handle any of the dogs roughly nor the other trainers. The dogs all had tails wagging and seemed very friendly and happy to be there, I did not see any staring wildly or acting afraid in any way or form and they did not look like robots like at the second training place.

 

The lady we would have for a trainer and I had in the consult actually has 2 of her own dogs in agility competitions so I will call and ask her a few more questions before we begin. I will ask what their training method is when I call.

 

I am glad we were not starting this week as Mya strained her front leg playing this weekend. Slipped on wet grass and bent it back under her and landed on it. She hobbled a bit for the first day but seems much better today but still glad we don't have to do that hour of training this week to give it good time to rest.

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