Shoring up a sloppy "Lie Down"

[Camden's Mom]

In the last month or so Camden's "Lie Down" has gotten really sloppy. It used to be a sight to behold, even a quietly spoken "Lie Down" put his belly on the ground in an instant. Now, not so much.

 

We're having a great deal of difficulty teaching him to balance, especially on the Away. He doesn't seem to be getting it naturally, so our trainer wants me to put him in a down as soon as he hits balance. We're hoping we can show him "right there is where I need you!!" and quickly get him back up and moving (in the right spot) with a "walk up". Well, it's not working so great because when I say "Lie Down" he just goes into a slow creep and quickly moves out of position. My instructor doesn't want me using body pressure (if I take a step towards him the sheep just zoom past me, accomplishing nothing). Frustrating. Worse yet, it feels like we're stuck on a rather elementary skill that I KNOW he knows (i.e. "Lie Down").

 

Anyways, I was wondering if anyone could give advice on how to shore up a "Lie Down" that was once impressive but now is a bit of a hot mess. Any suggestions (on or off sheep) for getting this command solidly back under our belts?

[TEC]

If he is going past balance or short of balance, and that's why you are wanting the down, it kind-of sounds like more of a balance problem than a lie-down issue. Dogs tend to down more easily when they are on balance, and the sheep are controlled.

 

Perhaps you could discuss with your instructor teaching a "steady" or "there" command when Camden reaches balance. For me (when whistled) "steady" means to turn from the flank without stopping, and walk-up on the sheep. The word "there" is often used, when the cue is strictly verbal. Once Camden understands balance a little better, you might get an easier down when he reaches it. Just a thought based on your description. -- Best wishes, TEC

 

ETA: All good advice below. I like Maxi's description of how to use your position and movement to help your dog find balance on the fetch -- the paragraph beginning, " Because you want him to learn..". That's how I was taught. Send your dog on a short gather, maybe 20-40 feet, and as soon as the dog is about to get to balance, use a "there" command, and begin moving backwards. The dog's pressure will bring the sheep to you, and almost automatically your dog will be on balance.

[Camden's Mom]

I would absolutely agree we have a balance issue! On his Come Bye he balances ok, but on his Away he either gets stuck just a *tiny* bit before balance or blows past it all together. When he blows past balance he does so very quickly, so we're just trying to get him to notice the moment when he's reached it. Steady, Walk up, There, and Yes have all fallen short. By the time you get his attention he's already way out of position. We were hoping that using the down would stop him in his tracks, making him pay attention to where he was for half a second before getting him moving again with a walk up.

 

But lie down doesn't stop him in his tracks like it used to and I'd really like to get that command back to where it was 6 months ago.

 

I know teaching balance will take time. I don't think I have an exceptionally talented dog and lord knows I'm making mistakes left and right out there. Still, we've been stuck on Away balance for long enough that it's beginning to feel like we'll never push past it.

 

As a side note, whether or not we continue to try to use the down as a way teach balance (not ideal, I know) I'd still like him to have a reliable down regardless. I need to be able to reliably down him in many situations without having him either 1) blow me off or 2) walk another 10 feet before heeding the command.

[red russel]

go backwards a bit. only ask for a lie down when you know your dog has control of it's stock. when you are 100% sure you will get the down. don't ask for off balance downs or downs when the sheep are "escaping." if you wouldn't bet a $20 bill on the down, don't ask for it.

 

reinforce what it is when it makes complete sense to your dog. after you have it there you can progress to downs that make a bit less sense... off balance downs. don't rush. if it doesn't make sense to your dog you are going to continue to degrade the behavior and you might both lose trust in each other. your dog thinks you are crazy because the sheep keep escaping and you don't trust your dog's down.

 

don't use your down as a crutch. things get going too fast... perhaps a bit western... we tend to rush to a down. often not needed and can be detrimental. also we are often missing training opportunities because we rush to a down. anticipate what is about to happen and prepare yourself with a plan to take advantage of the situation as a training opportunity.

 

just some thoughts.

[Maxi]

OK obviously it is difficult to really say what is going on without being there, but from your description, it seems to me that you have 2 separate problems and you should try to address these separately. Attempting to sort both at once will just confuse & worry your dog more.

 

First: the Balance on the away. Your description is '...but on his Away he either gets stuck just a *tiny* bit before balance or blows past it all together. When he blows past balance he does so very quickly, so we're just trying to get him to notice the moment when he's reached it.".

 

This suggests to me that your dog is picking up on your anxiety about this. He is therefore uncertain and worried about what to do. Because of this, he stops early and than (again because he is anxious) he feels he has to rush past the balance point (I wouldn't be surprised if he gives a slight tail flick as he does this).

 

So to sort this part, I think you probably need to try to chill more, relax your body language & focus on the tone of voice that you are using and make him feel comfortable when he is in the right position.

 

As others have suggested try using a "steady" before he starts to slow himself just before the balance point (say this in a quiet calm voice).

 

If he stops early encourage him forward with a soft 'shh or a calmly spoken 'away'; & then when he reaches the correct point, rather than ask for a lie down, say something like 'there' (and use this term on both flanks as a way to tell him that he has reached the balance point). - If necessary you should lean to the left and extend your left hand to stop his continued flanking movement move across the balance point. Then move to your original position so he remains correctly balanced.

 

Because you want him to learn his balance on the away and feel comfortable, encourage him to walk on to the sheep by you walking backwards ie don't ask for a lie down. (Reintroduce the lie down once you have sorted the away balance issue).

 

Alternatively If you are concerned about him pushing the sheep past you, then stand with your back to a fence, with the sheep just in front of you & ask your dog to flank in semicircles. By moving your own body in relation to the sheep, you can show your dog when the correct balance point is.

 

 

For the lie down. A creep forward is not unusual in an inexperienced dog, So you do not feel that you are alone with this problem. In order to sort this you probably will need to go back to being quite close to the sheep (& therefore your dog). Only ask for a lie down when he is feeling comfortable (sheep not likely to get away) and only ask for it, when you know you are in a position to enforce it. Don't ask for a lie down at a distance until you can get it close at hand, and when he can manage this only gradually extend the distance that you use this command.

 

If he balances correctly on the 'come bye'. then work on getting him to lie down properly when you send him in this direction... Alternatively work on his lie down as he walks on to the sheep & you walk backwards.

 

Again, you need to make him feel comfortable ..so he should be in a position that he does not think that his sheep will escape and your body language should not put excessive pressure on him. Also when you want him to stop you should also stop walking. Instead use your body as a neutral block (stand still and if necessary raise your hand to a sort of 'half halt'position). If necessary, use the fence line to help stop the sheep escaping past you.

 

overall, I think you need to try to consider how your dog is perceiving the issue. Perhaps have someone video both you and your dog together. Look carefully at what your body language & vocal tone/pitch is really saying to him & how he responds to your actions & tone of voice.

 

just some additional thoughts to add to the others, they may or may not work for you.

 

good luck

Edited September 26, 2014 by Maxi

[GentleLake]

If he stops early encourage him forward with a soft 'shh or a calmly spoken 'away'; & then when he reaches the correct point, rather than ask for a lie down, say something like 'there' (and use this term on both flanks as a way to tell him that he has reached the balance point). - If necessary you should lean to the left and extend your left hand to stop his continued flanking movement move across the balance point. Then move to your original position so he remains correctly balanced.

 

This is what I did when I was training. I really found a "there" to be very helpful.

[Camden's Mom]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their feedback. I took a lot of ideas from this thread into our lesson this morning and we had a number of successes. It was our best lesson in weeks.

 

Per balancing: I decided to take a great deal of pressure off of him as many of you suggested. I decided to let him work some things out on his own without feeling so "under the magnifying glass". I didn't force a direction when I sent him so he would mostly Come Bye (his more comfortable side). He only got hard pressure/corrections when he made what he knew to be mistakes (zooming, rushing the sheep, pretty much anything that involved his tail going up, lol). Otherwise I forced myself to relax my body language and try to make him feel more comfortable. This seemed to allow him to make honest mistakes and learn from them without an overwhelming amount of pressure from me. I had much better success using the "there" command right as he hit balance, much more so then trying to get a down out of him. I actually said "YES! There!!" in an upbeat but attention getting voice and when I did he'd turn into the sheep. Anyways, I'm proud to report that once we hit a stride and he was balancing consistently on the Come Bye he even had a few successes on his Away! So, after several weeks of frustrating lessons this morning felt like a small breakthrough. Of course, to no ones great surprise, it appears I was causing the most problems out there.

 

Per "Lie Down": I stopped asking for the down as he hit balance (instead using "there" as suggested) and that seemed to have helped his Lie Down in other situations. It wasn't pristine by any means (still a bit of creeping forward) but I normally didn't have to tell him more then twice and he'd take it. I could tell, since he was already turned into the sheep and walking up, that his resistance to down had more to do with his excitement being too close to the sheep (hence needing him to down) verses the total blow-off I've been experiencing the previous couple of lessons. IOW, I think the downs today were a little sloppy because he was excited, where as the downs the previous couple of weeks were sloppy because he was confused and under too much pressure.

 

Well, I just wanted to give an update and thank everyone again for the thoughtful responses. They really helped AND my trainer actually commented today that my communication with Camden and my timing seem to be improving (woohoo).

[Maxi]

Brilliant,

I'm really chuffed for you.

I bet you and Camden are both beaming...