When is puppy ready to start training?

[gcv-border]

Background: My lovely working-bred pup will be 6 months old tomorrow. I have been investigating options for training him for herding. Based on what I have read on the Boards and the advice from several experienced handlers, I will probably be sending him out for his foundation training. (I don't want to screw him up.)

 

I am in no hurry to start him at the present time, particularly since I have heard that males mature slower than females.

 

My question: How do you determine when a pup is ready for the pressures of training? Because I do not have the experience, or the sheep, to have a look-see, I am planning not to start his training until he is about a year (and hopefully he will be ready). I pose this question to learn what to look for IF I did have the opportunity to evaluate him the same as a handler with the knowledge and the sheep. What would you be doing with a young pup and what would you be hoping to see (or not see) when evaluating?

 

Also is there anything I could be looking for away from sheep to judge his maturity level (i.e. ability to handle the pressures of herding training)?

[CMP]

Our dogs do not recieve any stock training at all until they are 10-12 months - depends on the dog. They do not work stock until they are 16-18 months. They get virtually no training except sit, down, stand, stay and a recall until they are 6 months old. They get familiarized with sheep/cattle/horses and run through a series of basic training steps designed to allow for evaluation of their individual skills and inclinations between 6 months and 10-12 months.

 

I can't speak to the specific things you could be looking for in terms of the evaluation, but the schedule we have followed for many years is as noted - if that is of any help whatsoever.

 

This is an interesting query and I hope to see some interesting answers

[juliepoudrier]

Because I have had the advantage of sheep available to me at home, I will take a youngster out periodically just to see what's there and see what I've got. If I didn't have that advantage, I probably wouldn't start before a year old, but some pups are prodigies (my Twist was training and trialing before she was a year old) and can be started earlier. Still, as you are a novice with a youngster, I think erring on the side of caution never hurts, especially if you're paying someone else to start your dog.

 

If that person is not a great distance away, or if you have a mentor nearby who would let you try your youngster periodically (under the mentor's supervision with the stock--that is, the mentor taking the pup in to the stock), then your mentor could do this and tell you when s/he thinks the pup is ready for the pressure of real training (vs. just letting them in with the stock and seeing what instinct shows).

 

The main things are whether the pup is physically able to keep up with stock and that it is mentally ready for training pressure. Will write more later, have a staff member wanting me to actually do some work!

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

Pups that are started later, but more mentally mature, will learn faster than pups started younger (less mentally mature). If you are sending yours out for training, you will get more bang for your buck by sending a more mentally mature pup.

[Alchemist]

A perspective from a Novice handler, so take it with a boulder of salt. I introduced my pup to sheep (under the guidance of my mentor) from the time he was, I dunno, five or six months old. He was interested, but clearly not mentally mature enough - his tail was usually up. This last winter was hell on wheels in terms of weather, so he didn't see sheep from the time he was ~ 9 months (probably old enough to begin training) until he was nearly a year old. My mentor took him in for a week of training when he was about a year old and the glaciers were beginning to retreat here in Maryland. At that point he showed he was ready for training; his tail was down, he was thinking, and was interested in pleasing my mentor (he'd give her quick glances - "is this what you want me to do now, Boss?"). He also quickly got past the "grip them because they're scary" phase. She got him to the point where he could do short outruns and was doing a touch of driving. She'd have loved to have trained him more herself, but didn't have the time, with spring trials heating up.

 

I sent him off for training shortly after he turned a year old. He stayed with an experienced Open handler for close to four months. (Longer would probably have been even better, but my budget only stretched so far - plus I missed the little rascal!). At this point he knows his sides, does inside flanks, can do ~ 100-150 yard outruns, can do some driving, and has penned sheep a few times (that's not very challenging with dogs who know their flanks and have a good lie down, as long as the sheep are of the self-penning variety). He also has a "there" and a "time". And his "lie down", while not 100%, isn't too awful. Would I send a pup off for training again? As a novice handler - you BET!!!

 

One thing my mentor has told me: it's VERY important that the person first introducing a pup to sheep know what they're doing. It's critical to keep the experience a positive one for the pup. Many/most pups will grip at first out of nervousness, and if you scold them right off the bat, they may shut down permanently.

 

I don't think you can extrapolate from how a pup acts off stock to how they will react to sheep in terms of judging whether it'll be ready for training. I think you just have to try and see what happens. My pup (now 17 months old) still acts like a goofy pup off sheep in many ways. But on stock he's all business.

 

A good trainer will tell you if a pup isn't mature enough for training. (The person who trained my pup sent one pup home because it wasn't mentally mature enough).

[Liz P]

You will get different answers from just about everyone.

 

There isn't much you can evaluate off sheep to know if your pup is ready. What I am looking for is mental maturity and whether or not they can take a correction. If they are total goofy pups all the time, they probably aren't ready. If they melt because you give a minor correction, they probably aren't ready. Will that translate to sheep? Impossible to know until you try.

 

Kiefer's dam placed in the very first trial she ran in at just over a year old. She was quick to train, keen and mentally mature at a very young age. Her sire wasn't ready to start until he was about 1.5 years old, but just a few months later he went on to win the Nursery of the Canadian Finals. I think Tweed is going to be a bit later to start, like his grandfather. He is keen and sensible at the same time, showing great feel and natural ability, but not yet capable of taking the training.

 

Generally I would advise to error on the side of starting later rather than too early. About a year old is a good time to aim for.

[Gloria Atwater]

You've gotten good advice so I'll mainly echo what's already said.

You are spot on for waiting until he's close to a year old. He may be keen as mustard to work right now! But his mind won't be ready for the pressures of actual training for months to come, plus his young bones are still growing. You'll definitely get more bang for your buck by sending an older, more mature pup for his foundation work and his mind will be ready to absorb more things and retain them better.

Now, for myself as someone who's trained and started a few pups, I'd take my own pup to sheep maybe once a month or so, just to see what he's got going in the brain box. Things I would look for include sustained interest, some thoughtfulness while working, the tail lowering while working, showing attention to the entire group of sheep rather than singling just one, and willingness to let me influence him to go around the sheep both clockwise and counter-clockwise.

Every young dog begins at a different level or rate or intensity, so there is no one, "right" way for a pup to start. But if I see a youngster just dashing in, tail in the air, and busting sheep all over, chasing sheep, fixating on a single sheep from the group and that sort of silliness, then I'll know his instincts are good, but his puppy brain isn't quite ready for sensible thought.

Hope this helps!

~ Gloria

[Maxi]

I agree with the others. I dont think you can predict how a dog will react on stock from how he reacts around humans, other dogs or toys. A good age to start your first dog is about 1-1.5years old because he should be mentally and physically able to cope with the training especially if you intend to send him away for tuition. However, a good trainer should want to assess him first and so will be able to tell you whether he is ready or not.

 

In addition to the others comments and in agreement with CMP, I would add that the main thing prior to starting on sheep is to get a reasonablly good recall on your pup..though to be honest, many dogs completely stop listening to anything the first couple of times they see sheep.

 

I would also recommend that you encourage your pup to think that calmness is something to be praised and rewarded.

 

If you know who you intend to use as a trainer, I would also go along and watch how he/she works. Watch the gestures he/she uses and try not to use these when you play with your pup, otherwise when you work with him, he may not know whether you are encouraging him to play or asking him to think about his sheep!

 

Finally, if you do not have much/any livestock experience yourself, I also would recommend trying to get some stocksense. Once you start working with a dog for the fist time, you will probably concentrate mainly on him & yourself & forget what the sheep are doing. However, the art of sheepdog handling is actually being able to read the stock and predict what is about to happen. So the more understanding you have of sheep behaviour/body language the better.

 

If you can find one or more farmer(s) who will let you tag along, you can get watch how he/she/they works with stock. Maybe he/she will let you try to help moving them (without a dog). When I started, I found that the offer of free labour in return for gaining some practical hands-on experience was readliy taken up by a number of different people. I had a full time job at the time, but once I decided I wanted to get better with my sheepdog handling, I spent almost every weekend and all my holidays around stock (even taking unpaid leave to help with lambing on different farms).

 

I believe that the time I have spent working on farms/smallholdings without my dog has paid dividends as I can help my dog understand what is required.

[gcv-border]

Thanks to all who replied. It was very helpful. I definitely will not be sending Kiefer off before he is 11-12 months old, maybe later. I am going to try to find someone to evaluate him in a couple of months, but even if he is 'ready', I am still going to wait. If he is not ready, I will try to evaluate him after another 1-2 month period to track his progress. I certainly don't want to waste my $ on a pup not ready for training.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

Several years back, experimenters gave laptops, solar chargers and some sort of satelitte wifi to kids of some remote bedouin tribe - without instructions. Within two months the kids were using the laptops, within three the internet.

 

Unfortunately, stockwork with a dog is harder to learn.

 

Ms/Mr Maxi offered useful advice: " if you do not have much/any livestock experience yourself, I also would recommend trying to get some stocksense. Once you start working with a dog for the fist time, you will probably concentrate mainly on him & yourself & forget what the sheep are doing. However, the art of sheepdog handling is actually being able to read the stock and predict what is about to happen. "

 

If you don't know why you want the sheep to do something nor why they might be willing to do it, your trained dog won't be able to do the work and will swiftly become untrained out of frustration.

 

A simple recent example. We were pushing thirty or forty sheep into the wings of a chute, hoping they'd enter the chute for worming. The farmhand kept trying to push them in by closing the gate but the lead sheep had turned backasswards to the chute. To someone unused to sheep behavior it was entirely counter-intuitive that the correct move was releasing pressure, letting the sheep out of the opening and swirl back in again when more willing sheep might be in front.

 

Let me suggest: There are many sheep farms, large and small in SW Virginia. Ask your country extension agent. Kindly farmers may be willing to introduce a beginner to practical day-to-day sheep work. They may be willing to let you help with chores. (Please understand that at first, you'll be little more than a nuisance, but if you're humble and a good listener you can become useful.)

 

As a boy, the Great JM Wilson learned stockwork without a dog when he and his brother were sent out on foot to gather a thousand ewes. I don't suggest anything quite so radical (and no sheep farmer of my acquaintance would let a novice try it) but please remember its not "Dogwork" it's "Sheepwork".

 

Donald McCaig

[emilyfalk]

I just want to add one thing that hasn't been addressed much: physical maturity in the sense of not getting hurt! Some pups will be easy on their bodies and gently flow around sheep without having too much effect on them. Sheep are quiet, dog is quiet, even the train-wrecks are mild. That was my Lena at 8 months, so she got worked a lot as a youngster. Other pups may have too much determination for their own safety. My Rob is 9 months old now and could've been getting worked regularly for the past few months, but I decided to put him up. He was thoughtful, changed directions without any pressure, responsive to me, all that stuff already mentioned. But if something got out of control (which was easy because I didn't have a great set-up for him then: unbroke hair lambs are a little reactive for a pup!), he was SO determined to head break-away singles, squeeze between sheep and fence, cram himself into corners, leap up to hit noses, that sort of thing. Characteristics that I was quite happy to see, but not in a growing pup. Too scary! I didn't want to discourage this, so I just stopped working him until he was a little more physically capable. I personally don't like using "puppy sheep", so that's another reason I waited, no reason to have sheep squishing or stomping him. I think he would've been fine out in the open on tame sheep, but that wasn't our situation. Other people may train with very broke puppy sheep and can minimize these risks I've described. There are lots of ways to train dogs! Just that so much depends on both the dog and the sheep in the given situation.

 

Another thing: the recent trend seems to be BIG, fast-growing pups, especially males. You're starting to get into the OCD range at 6 months old, and I'd be careful stressing the body too much at this time. Some pups can be a little awkward with their bodies as they grow, so I'd also be careful of one that moved more like a pup than a mini-adult dog, especially if it lacked the "self-preservation" gene

[CMP]

We often have interns at the farm. Some come with their dogs. Sometimes there are dogs here to learn things without their owners. Sometimes there are owners here without their dogs.I believe it is considered a bit of a vocational obligation, if you will, to provide learning opportunities for people who need them - you can go to agricultural college all you want, there is no "farmer" school and the practical aspects of dealing with stockdogs is still a hands-on, from one generation to the next, bit of skill that needs passing in a hands-on way.

 

We have one fellow, a surgeon, who has decided to become a farmer when he retires and went out and bought himself three very fine BCs with lovely breeding. I believe they were taken in to get started out of respect for the dogs and despite the owner :/

 

You can likely find some farmer somewhere who works in the "pay it forward" mode.

[emilyfalk]

Forgot to add, I'm not sure where you are, but I'm in Galax and you're welcome to come out some time. The fall is a busy time for me; if I'm not working the weekend I'm probably at a dog trial. But let me know if you're interested and we could find a time to hang out.

[Maxi]

I firmly believe what I said before about the need for novice handlers to gain stocksense and I am grateful to Mr McCaig and the others for expanding on this. However, if for any reason you are unable to tag along with a farmer/shepherd, then the next best thing may be to attend a training clinic as a spectator (without your dog so that you could fully focus on everything else).

 

This would let you see

• how the experienced trainer worked with the dogs compared with the owners
• how the dog (probably) behaved very diffierently depending on whether the trainer or owner was handling him
• how the sheep behaved when confronted with different dogs of different temperament and experience (this may give you some idea about why stocksense is important)
• how the owners and dogs progressed (and hopefully improved) over the duration of the clinic.

it would also let you see that whatever problem you may face with your dog in the future, you are most certainly not alone.

 

good luck. When the time comes and you consider that both of you are ready, I really hope that you both enjoy it.

[juliepoudrier]

One thing I loved about my mixed flock and the availability of a round pen was that I was able to put sheep in the round pen with the human trainee and let them experience moving the sheep around, turning and stopping them on "command" and then getting them moving again. I had everything from slow, heavy dorper puppy sheep to very light Scottish blackface. It was always great fun to change the mix and let the human see how the type of sheep (different breeds, ages, numbers) could require a change in tactics on the human's part in order to successfully move the sheep as directed. I always thought it would be fun to have a clinic devoted just to people learning about stock behavior and how to use that knowledge to influence the stock to do what you wanted them to do, with or without a dog.

 

I've seen people who should know better set up handling systems that were destined to be difficult to work with because stock behavior wasn't taken into account. I've seen handlers try to bull through a task (like getting a flock of yearling sheep to go through a small opening into a pen) unsuccessfully when all they needed to do to succeed was to work with the behaviors they should have known the stock would offer.

 

So yes, learning about stock oneself, without the dog, is probably one of the biggest advantages a person can gain for themselves when it comes to working and training a dog successfully.

 

J.