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Pam Wolf

registration question

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I respect everyone at the hardworking ABCA registry, and applaud that a portion of registration fees goes toward BC health studies and to deserving individuals for promotional endeavors. Yet to try to answer Mark Billadeau's question (#67), the mere availability of dual registration with AKC blurs the demarcation between breeding for stockdogs and those bred from other lines. Doesn't dual registration somewhat devalue the product for those interested in an ABCA stockdog from working lines? A prospective stockdog buyer can search records to see if an ABCA dog or its ancestors are dual registered, and ask the right questions, but the mere possibility of AKC registration raises suspicions that may never be fully capable of resolution. I agree with GentleLake and others about disallowing dual registration.

 

Dual reg. brings about other issues, especially the thorny problem of refusal to allow ROM for CH'd Border Collies who were denied ABCA registration (or have been deregistered) solely due to their CH. The supposed increased value of an ABCA CH titled dog who has been ROM'd into the registry, is something I would rather not discuss. To make that a significant point may give ABCA the appearance of covetousness to some, when the registry is above such considerations. I believe effective rhetoric should confine itself to harm to the breed by participation in conformation competition.

 

In my estimation, a dog who has met the exceptionally high ABCA criteria for ROM (whether it has a CH title or not) would catch a prospective buyer's eye above ABCA registered Border Collies who are not from recent working dogs (all other factors being equal). Now there's added value from performance. -- TEC

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For the sports crowd particularly the 'near CH" is prestigious. I don't follow BCSA so am not sure of it's current policies. The Conformation crowd has essentially separated within their circles. However, one does have to ask the question if they are selecting for sports, colour or other criteria are they selecting for work? Additionally, stopping the ability to dual register breeding eligible dogs might discourage some of the now ABCA (often dual) producers who are breeding for goals other than work but do not participate in dog sports.

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ABCA registration does not equal "stockdog from working lines". An ABCA registered dog bred for agility, pet, etc is not a "stockdog from working lines"; it is merely a dog with a registered pedigree.

 

As far as I can tell TEC continues to side step the question in #67.

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Well, here is the statement of the ABCA president:

  • For the good of the breed, border collies should be bred only for working ability. The border collie breed was created by farmers and shepherds who wanted to develop a dog which could help them manage their livestock. They bred only to produce good workers, and that singleness of purpose created the breed we love. Changing the way border collies are bred will change the breed itself. Therefore, breeding dogs who have not proven themselves as useful herding dogs, or breeding for appearance/color, or breeding for sports or for "good pets," or breeding for anything other than working ability (which includes the health and temperament necessary for working) is harmful to the breed.

That's the aspiration of ABCA. It's certainly no guaranty, but it is a good thing.

And in the same document: "Buying a pup from breeders who register with the AKC is bad for the breed." Clearly, allowing dual registration does nothing to mitigate that evil. -- TEC

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In 67 I asked what YOU think ABCA registration endows to a pup, not what other people think or said. Besides, what you quoted only talks about what breeders should be doing not what the registration papers mean.

 

Try again, and this time tell us what you think ABCA papers offer over and above a breeding record.

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Mark Billadeau -- You evidently have something you want me to say, in hopes that it will support your belief that ABCA organization stands for merely a record of a dog's family tree. I do not see how what I personally believe in that regard has connection with my suggestions, clearly discussed above, that:

 

1) Dogs refused registration, or deregistered due to CH titling, be given an opportunity to prove themselves through a fair ROM test, and

2) Allowing dual registration is a bad idea, and should be changed.

 

I would like to hear your explanation.

 

You have your personal beliefs and I have mine. Fewer and fewer members are participating in this thread. Perhaps we should continue this discussion via email, or otherwise off this forum. Let's go outside with our differences B) . My patience is wearing thin. We could agree to disagree and leave it at that. This is approximately the point at which the moderator steps in and shuts things down. I would rather end or continue the discussion on our own terms. Do what you want. Remember I originally took exception to the moderator's remarks, and apparently you stepped in to support them, but based on some of your posts, I am not sure of that.

 

Declare some kind of victory, if you wish. That would be incorrect. I am pleased that the issues were discussed, as that is all I could hope for, in the short term, from the beginning. If I understand correctly, you are the chair of the Health and Genetics Committee and the moderator is ABCA President. You both have influence within your organization to work toward change. -- TEC

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You implied that ABCA papers provided more than a simple record of breeding, more than some perceived value. You have asked others to support their statements with additional supporting information and have received it. I have asked and asked and asked for you to do the same for your statement to no avail. Do what you expect of others, support your statements.

 

The registration papers offer no value beyond a breeding record. The value, in terms of potential working ability, comes from the breeder. This value does not require ABCA registration. It just so happens that a large number of working breeders use the ABCA for record keeping. The organization is run by people who are for the breeding of working dogs and works towards maintaining and improving the working gene pool. Simply seeking out ABCA registered dogs is not going to get you a working bred dog because it is not a performance registry.

 

Mark Billadeau

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Your questions.

 

1. No. This policy makes a good statement on how the organization stands on breeding for the show ring. The loss of genetic diversity to the breed and the possible loss of working genes to the gene pool is negligible by not allowing the very small numbers of CH dogs that would be trained and could meet the ROM process.

 

2. Undecided. Due to the potential negative impacts it would have on the genetic diversity in our gene pool.

 

One should note that accepting a ban on dual registration would eliminate the opportunity for CH dogs and their offspring to get registered by ROM.

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In regards to the ROM process: How many applications are submitted each year and how many ROMs are actually granted on an annual basis?

 

and just a comment

 

Pam Wolf wrote: "For the sports crowd particularly the 'near CH" is prestigious."

 

I have been involved in the sports world for many years with multiple breeds in multiple venues and know hundreds of other sports folks. It has not been my experience that true sports people really give a hoot about a CH. Most hard core sports people that I know tend not to bother with it.

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I do not agree with your answers, but thank you for providing them. Answer No. 2 is a step in a good direction.

 

Regarding your belief that my personal feelings (whether ABCA is more than a record keeping entity) is pertinent to my two suggestions, I will let the previous posts in this thread speak for themselves.

 

Have the last word if you like. I will not respond unless you raise new issues. -- Thank you, TEC

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... On the other hand, if there were an AKC dog who was good enough to be awarded ROM, it would not be allowed. That seems like a contradiction to me, coming from an association who supports a working standard. It would seem to me that the AKC dog with ROM would be a much better example of the border collie than the sports dog who is 15 generations removed from an actual working dog. And yet the dog with AKC registration is punished. That's where I get confused, because it would seem to me that the ABCA would support the talented dog regardless of the origins. So, why is that dog so despicable? I can understand the rule stating any dog that acquire a CH is deregistered (because that dog, or the owner rather, is supporting a registration which contradicts the ABCA beliefs), though I also can twist the argument around and ask why a dog who could be a fantastic working dog that happens to meet AKC standards suddenly is the worst possible example of the border collie.

 

 

Plenty has already been said, so I'll just reiterate my two bits. It's not AKC dogs who are punished. It's titled, finished AKC conformation champions who are excluded from registration. The reason for this is simple: conformation is the pursuit of a wholly arbitrary physical ideal that deliberately overlooks and ignores the working qualities that define the border collie breed. Not only does the AKC CH title award this pursuit, it encourages it.

 

The "sporter" collie breeders may also omit working considerations when creating their agility or whatever dogs, but they are not a breed registry offering status, renown and accolades to people who in fact perpetuate degradation of the border collie as a working dog. (I've seen AKC conformation-bred border collies in their attempts to almost-work sheep, so degradation is indeed the word I mean.)There are top people in the conformation breeding world who openly acknowledge that they deliberately choose dogs with low or no working ability for their breeding programs. The reason? A working dog, with his keen, discerning, independent mind, is apt to be distracted by movement, motion, noise and lights, whereas a successful conformation dog should focus only on his handler.

 

That, my friend, is why dogs who "happen" to meet AKC standards at its highest levels and achieve the title of Conformation Champion have been ruled inadmissible for ABCA registration.

 

The thing to remember is this: all other AKC-registered border collies who are not titled AKC conformation champs can be registered with ABCA. Those dogs are not excluded and in fact some people do indeed give their pups dual registration. Only AKC conformation champs are excluded. Period. That was a considered decision by the ABCA as a breed registration.

 

The only way I would ever be persuaded that this decision was remiss or unfair would be if we were seeing really talented AKC conformation champions running in and doing well in USBCHA sanctioned trials at the Nursery and Open levels. So far, though ... that's not happening.

 

I hope this helps explain things a little better. :)

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

 

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......

 

Why does the ISDS not think it necessary to have a similar rule? Or none that I can find. Maybe not as insecure or paranoid?

 

The pup I am planning to buy will be dual registered. No big deal. The breeder wouldn't normally register with anything other than the ISDS but will register with a national KC if the buyer needs it for whatever s/he plans to do with the dog.....

 

Many ISDS border collies are sold to Europe and I'm pretty sure I've read that many if not most of those countries require dogs to be KC registered. Can anyone address that? If so, this may be one reason that the ISDS does not have the same rule.

 

~ Gloria

 

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One thing I have learned from this thread is that the organisation regulating breeding and the organisation running "real" trials are not one and the same. I should have thought that it would make sense for the process of breeding for working ability and the provision of a platform to demonstrate that ability in competition to come under one umbrella but obviously not in the case of the US.



Bear in mind that the ABCA is the 3rd border collie registry to exist in the US, preceded by the AIBC (American-International Border Collie) and the NASDS (North American Sheep Dog Society.)

In contrast, the ISDS is the only working border collie registry the UK has and dates back to 1906, so their history and evolution are different.

~ Gloria

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I don't know about the sheepdog trial world but to compete in France in agility you have to have an FCI registered dog, with a rescue dog you are excluded from half the classes and FCI is the only option you have. I have been told that in Spain as I have an intact dog it would be possible to compete at FCI as he is obviously a border collie, apparently we would go to a show the judge would say yes thats a collie, and sign off on the papers, BUT if he was neutered he would not be eligible, but locally you do not have to compete in FCI as there is a local league. It is a weird and wonderful world, we could not compete in AKC agility as he was intact and unpapered, now it's the opposite. Also as part of this conversation involves ISDS you can compete in KC activities with any dog, regardless of breed or reproductive ability with no discrimination.

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Many ISDS border collies are sold to Europe and I'm pretty sure I've read that many if not most of those countries require dogs to be KC registered. Can anyone address that? If so, this may be one reason that the ISDS does not have the same rule.

 

~ Gloria

Yes, there are countries in Europe where FCI is the only recognized registration body; FCI does not recognize ISDS; and therefore dogs must be KC-registered for FCI registration (necessary for "sanctioned" breeding and competition in those countries). For this reason, there are breeding animals in the UK and Ireland that are KC-registered so they, the dogs' semen, and the pups may be FCI-compatible when European sales are involved.

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Tom (Thom? Sorry, I don't know how you actually spell your name),

I'm a bit confused. It seems to me that you are advocating two somewhat opposite things. The first is that AKC conformation champions be allowed to go through the ROM process and thereby gain ABCA registration. Okay, I can understand why you think that, even if I disagree.

 

But then your second argument seems to be that dual registration should not be allowed. If you believe that then why would you argue for ANY dog to be allowed to go through ROM if the result would be dual registration?

 

Perhaps you believe that as long as dual registration is allowed than ANY dog should be able to avail themselves of that possibility, but the two arguments together just seem like an inconsistency of thought to me. I personally don't believe in ROMing AKC champions, nor do I believe in dual registration.

 

The fact that dual registration exists doesn't make me believe that the few dogs (AKC conformation CH) who theoretically might be able to pass ROM should be allowed to do so in order to also gain dual registration. It may be a line placed in the wrong part of the sand (in many people's opinion, if past discussions on this subject are any indication), but it is a line and a start. I would love to see that line backed up to the point where no dual registration is allowed, but I don't know how to make that happen unless ABCA members/breeders themselves really push for it. But I don't see any reason to make it easier for people who support breeding principles that aren't in line with a working philosophy to be able to gain whatever they think they can gain by getting that ABCA registration.

 

Just my opinion of course.

 

J.

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I suppose an alternative that would resolve the contradiction would be to allow the ROM on the condition that ACK registration and championship would be forfeited. :D

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...Perhaps you believe that as long as dual registration is allowed than ANY dog should be able to avail themselves of that possibility...

 

That is correct. Under the current rule allowing for dual registration, dogs that were refused registration or deregistered due to its CH (as well as other qualified dogs) should be able to prove themselves through ROM

 

The best outcome is to disallow dual registration (which implies that CH dogs cannot dual reg. through ROM). I like GentleLake's thought that forfeiture of AKC registration and CH title, would permit a dog to test for ROM. -- TEC

 

PS -- My name is spelled Tom. Thanks for asking.

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Has anyone recently (past 5 years) been able to have an AKC registered dog deregistered at the owner's request?

I thought this was an interesting question so I contacted the AKC.

 

This is what they said.

 

From: Geonni Banner [mailto:[email protected]]

Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 2:21 PM

To: info

Subject: deregistration

 

I would like to know what the process is for de-registering my AKC registered dog. I own a Border Collie champion and wish to register him with the ABCA and Can you please send me info and/or forms for starting this process?

Thank you,

GGB

 

csr 19 (mxb) <[email protected]>

11:53 AM (3 minutes ago)

 

to me

 

Hello GGB,

It is not possible to deregister a dog. Please contact the ABCA to ask about the registration process with them.

Mary

AKC Customer Service Representative

http://www.akc.org/

919-233-9767

To date, the American Kennel Club®, the only not-for-profit registry, and its affiliates have allocated over $30 million to fund programs for the betterment of dogs everywhere.

 

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What I expected; removing a dog from the middle of a studbook creates a lot of issues. besides the AKC has kept open their book because they want/need more Border Collies; the "Borg" are not going to let one go once it is part of the "collective".

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Pam Wolf wrote: "For the sports crowd particularly the 'near CH" is prestigious."

 

I have been involved in the sports world for many years with multiple breeds in multiple venues and know hundreds of other sports folks. It has not been my experience that true sports people really give a hoot about a CH. Most hard core sports people that I know tend not to bother with it.

 

Agreed. In fact, any hard core sport person I know would tend to stay away from it.

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I'm not Tom but here is what I expect from a registry : careful, accurate pedigree recording. If there is a concern about the registration process of one or more breeders being fraudulent, then the registry should do what is necessary to protect the pedigree accuracy;I.e., investigations, deregistering inaccurately pedigreed animals, and breeder suspensions, as deemed appropriate. That's all I expect from a registry. I find working dogs by researching and talking to handlers and breeders whose dogs I admire. I wouldn't buy an ACK registered dog because they won't have the bloodlines I want in a dog. I have a dog that is a great grand dog of the first dog ROM'd by the ABCA. I know nothing of that dog's ROM'd dog's past, just her progeny's success.

 

I am grateful, but don't necessarily expect, all the great things the ABCA has done for our dogs- Like eye and ear research and monetary support for sheep and cattle finals competitions.

 

Edited for dumb phone auto corrections.

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Mark Billadeau wrote : ….the “Borg” are not going to let one go once it is part of the “collective”

Interesting choice of words and got me thinking once again on whether or not AKC is truly the threat that it once was.

It is a known fact that AKC registrations are down. It is also a known fact that conformation show entries have declined and it has been reported that AKC is now gaining more revenue from the recording fees off of agility entries than it currently does off of conformation entries. That said, entries into agility at the Novice A level, a class for people and or dogs who have never earned an AKC agility title, have fallen off so there are less “new” people coming into the AKC agility scene. Recent articles have shown that it is with the addition of “games” classes that AKC has been able to hold their trend line in agility and the proposed Pre Novice agility class a way to potentially attract new people.

In the agility world USDAA, CPE and UKI, to name a few, have grown reasonably quickly and are gaining in popularity. In areas where USDAA and AKC are competing head to head on the same day, USDAA has been able to reduce AKC entries by quite a few. This of course is only agility, there are other dog sports which are gaining in popularity and new organizations cropping up all of which are a potential lure to the border collie community.

Could it be while David is still facing off against an aging and ever weakening Goliath, in the shadows a new Goliath is growing/strengthening and that the dual registration of ABCA dogs with AKC is less of a threat to the working border collie than the dual registration of ABCA dogs with sports registries such as USDAA, UKI, CPE etc?

Just thinking out loud

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I hope people realized my comment about ROMing a dog on the condition its ACK registration and championship were forfeited was made facetiously.

 

I sincerely doubt anyone who had enough interest to get a CH on a dog would have any interest in giving up their registration and title, even if they could. Nor, I suspect would anyone who purchased said dog after the fact (at, I'm sure, an exorbitant price).

 

Interesting answer from the ACK. Not so much the part about not being able to deregister a dog, but that they referred you to ABCA. Surely they know what ABCA's policy is on the matter.

 

I suspect Mary was gobsmacked at the mere thought that someone might want to deregister a dog, and was hoping to make ABCA look like the spoilsports in your little endeavor. :lol:

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