I might get a lot of flak for this...

[Jescano]

... but I made the decision to try out an e-collar, and wanted to share my experience so far with it.

 

It has options for tone, vibration, and static/shock(7 different levels)

 

I actually got two but both are set to the same remote and respond at the same time. Jinx wears one and I wear one(seems mighty silly, I know) so I am very aware of the amount of stimulation he gets if/when he gets a correction, and I definitely tried it out on myself before putting it on him. Starting out with the vibration then going from level one shock to six. One I could barely feel, two was mildly irritating, three got my attention but still didn't "hurt," four is only slightly worse than three, five didn't "hurt" but I didn't like it, six I really didn't like and didn't go past that.

 

Every time I put it on him we have a lot of fun, play his favorite games and do fun trick training. He thinks the collar is a lot of fun and very willingly puts it on. And there are certain things he doesn't like putting on, like boots and harnesses and tries to avoid putting those on, so I would know if he didn't want to put it on.

 

 

I have also really only used it for "come" and "leave it." But before every correction I say "no" and he definitely has associated "no" with a correction from the collar, this is after a week of having it all it takes is the vibration setting, and I haven't needed to go past that, he hasn't actually been "shocked." And all corrections have only been done when he has blatantly ignored a command, "jinx" to get his attention, then once I have it "come" or "leave it." If he ignores it/walks the opposite direction he gets a "no" then vibration then a repeat of the original command.

 

It has worked really well, and he is way more responsive even without the collar on. After the first couple days 80% of commands were being listened to promptly even with distractions and "no" was being listened to immediately even without a vibration and is also being taken more seriously in all other contexts, like with other commands. Everything is kept very upbeat and he actually seems to be a happier more obedient dog. We've gone on a few outings without the collar and he still has the same level of responsiveness.

 

I know how these boards feel about the use of e-collars but I definitely don't feel like I have been abusive with it at all, and like I said earlier, I get every correction he gets and I don't feel like I've gone over the top with it. It is just another training tool, but I could see how in the wrong persons hands a dog could become a quivering mess. But someone could also be just as abusive with a flat nylon collar and leash, or any other training tool. And it's never used if there's a chance he didn't hear a command or might be confused about what I'm asking.

 

If Vibration is all it takes to correct him I can't imagine what a 7 or higher would do to him, I think it would probably really freak him out, I didn't even want to try it on myself though I'm sure it wouldn't harm me.

 

It doesn't cause him any more discomfort than a tug on a long line would. He's not fearful or broken after a correction, no cowering or tail between the legs, just a lot more attentive.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

I've had friends experienced with ecollars tell me that the vibration setting is much more useful than the shock settings.

 

After professional training I've used an ecollar in a life or death situation and I can imagine circumstances where I'd use it again.

 

I've known many entirely ecollar trained obedience dogs and a handful of ecollar trained retrievers and upland bird dogs.

 

I don't know enough to comment about the hunting dogs.

 

Ecollar training for obedience is the quickest way to get rote performance (like treat training it does nothing to advance the dog's understanding). That said; I know that some well known ecollar trained demo dogs burned out after two years and am uncertain about the long term effects on less agressively trained dogs. Many top trainers once enthusiastic about ecollars have eliminated or greatly reduced their use.

 

I disagree that "someone could also be just as abusive with a flat nylon collar and leash, or any other training tool." Whether a collar correction is appropriate or inappropriate, too mild, too severe, drunk or utterly whacky: the dog knows its an imperfect human issuing the command. My dogs have never believed I was perfect and have recovered from my mistakes.

 

A misapplied severe shock from an ecollar is a SEVERE LIFE LESSON produced by THE UNIVERSE. Like a bee sting, the dog doesn't need to understand it to form a lifelong reaction. The ecollar is the quickest and easiest way to drive a dog mad and in the hands of a dog/ignorant technophiliac human such a consequence is not unlikely.

 

When ecollars first appeared in the sheepdog world so many dogs were ruined for stockwork, retrainers made a good living, buying them cheap, retraining them (w/o ecollars) and selling them to golf courses for less demanding goose chasing work. Today, their use in sheepdogging is quite rare and they (and dummy collars) are prohibited in sheepdog trials.

 

Ecollars can be effective tools in expert hands and many traditional pet obedience trainers use them to get the dog's attention or correct severe misbehavior at a distance but they positively invite dog/ignorant abuse and I wish Americans needed to be licensed to purchase one.

 

Donald McCaig

[CMP]

For the record, I am fundamentally against any training technique designed to subvert the basic agreement between animal and human: I will not hurt you or treat you unfairly.

 

It would seem, from your post, that you are not an uncaring person, that you did your homework, as it were, and that you have a genuine love/concern for your dog. Whatever I say next does not mean to contradict that observation.

 

It seems, for lack of a better term, Draconian. I can't imagine wanting to teach a dog anything so quickly or desperately that I would resort to a method of punishment that comes, as Mr. McCraig says, from an electronic signal. Some dogs take a long time to learn things. So be it, in my books. Some dogs are not cut out for certain things. So be it, in my books. Some dogs and I do not develop the basic trust and respect required to do any sort of deep training (I train SaR dogs and have trained other service dogs) and I just move those dogs along to someone with whom they can develop the necessary rapport.

 

But that's me and there are things I do, trust me, that would have most other people's eyebrows wagging like a dog's tail.

 

In my experience - and not just with dogs - every single time I have tried a shortcut that attempts to eliminate the necessaity to build an understanding of things and get a voluntary, informed (so to speak) response, I have regretted it.

 

Your mileage may vary, of course. Whatever *I* may think of an e-collar, I do wish you luck with your pursuit of the end goal.

[GentleLake]

http://k9behavioralgenetics.net/resources/Articles/Why%20electric%20shock%20is%20not%20behavior%20modification.pdf

 

http://www.squidoo.com/collars-shock

[mum24dog]

For the record, I am fundamentally against any training technique designed to subvert the basic agreement between animal and human: I will not hurt you or treat you unfairly.

 

I couldn't agree more. If SAR dogs, military dogs, gun dogs, service dogs of all types etc etc can be trained humanely to a high standard and without reverting to such implements I don't understand why anyone would do so, especially in the process of pretty basic training.

[cwb3]

I use an ecollar with my hound/terrier/pinscher mix, in order to call her off of chasing deer and fox in and around our fields and woods. It was a last resort option after determining that no other recall method could work to snap her out of the chase instinct. I put it on her whenever we go out into the fields or lakes. I trained her to it just for recall only. I still put it on her for those occassions however it has worked to the point where I do not even need to use the vibrate function anymore. She comes when called, even in the face of deer.

 

It has been a very positive thing for her in that she can now go run and swim with the other dogs without us worrying about her running off chasing deer/fox for a 1/2 hour or so before rejoining us.

 

I use a Dogtra model, common for gun/bird dogs. Totally waterproof as well. The shock portion has a pulse "nick" button and a continual button, as well as a seperate vibrate button. The intensity setting goes from 0 to 126! With Birdie the max setting necessary was 9! At that setting you cannot even feel it when pressed to your palm. You can feel it a bit when pressed to your fingertips.

[mum24dog]

In the days before I learned that there is an alternative I

was almost persuaded by a very pleasant and persuasive acquaintance to use one on my first dog - a lurcher that would run down anything that moved. He had had plenty of opportunity to perfect the behaviour before I got him and I couldn't bear the idea of him never being able to run free. Fortunately for us both I had the influence of another trainer who convinced me that anything is possible with enough commitment and I trained him to recall instead of doing something that I would have hated myself for?

 

Please read the links above.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Dr Overall's article seems wonderfully like science without actually being science and the blogger (2nd citation), like Dr Overall, has every right to her religious convictions, however she came to form them.

 

The ecollar/shock collar argument suggests interesting ethical questions (Mr/Ms CMP's remark about "fairness" is one such.) It suggests questions of how dogs learn, what our presuppositions about dog learning are and why we teach them what we do.

 

I expect we'll get to these questions after we're done deciding which dog trainers are going to Hell.

 

 

 

 

Donald McCaig

[GentleLake]

Dr Overall's article seems wonderfully like science without actually being science

 

It's an editorial, clearly identified as such, not a scientific paper.

 

The writer, however, comes with some serious scientific and academic creds:

 

Karen L. Overall, MA, VMD, PhD, Diplomate ACVB, ABS Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist

Center for Neurobiology and Behavior, Psychiatry Department, University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine

[Blackdawgs]

I'm not big on clickers, but I do use them. One of the nice things about clickers is that they help to teach the operator the concept of timing. Hand a clicker to a beginner and there will be all sorts of timing errors.

 

Now give the same beginner the remote for an ecollar. YIKES

[rushdoggie]

, has every right to her religious convictions, however she came to form them.

 

Right, just like yourself:

 

(like treat training it does nothing to advance the dog's understanding).

 

 

[Jescano]

I would also like to add that the ecollar is/was not being used as the first resort. He is completely reliable on a long lead with no need for a tug to respond to commands, but he knows when it's on. We went from a 1/2" x 25ft line to a 1/2" x 40 ft line then to a 40ft line of paracord and he knows all the behaviors I ask of him on those and has learned that he has to listen when he's attached to a long line.

 

So this was more of a next step for even more freedom at a distance. He still has never been shocked, only vibrated since that is all he has needed as a correction and since that works there is no need to go higher. I'm sure everyone has felt a cellphone vibrate in their pocket, that's what it feels like.

 

If a dog can associate a "click" or "yes!" with a treat, why can he not do the same with a "No" and stimulation from an ecollar?

 

I know someone with a dog who KNOWS that the stimulation is caused by his owner. It's definitely not a correction from the universe to that dog. I also do know a dog that had been overstimulated by the person their owner got them from. I definitely put a lot of thought into this decision and didn't make it lightly.

 

I wouldn't want to use an ecollar for things like stockdog training, or agility, or something like that.

[Gloria Atwater]

I'm of the mind that, unless there's a problem that can't be overcome by any other means, an e-collar - even just on vibrate - is what you've demonstrated. A shortcut. Why the rush? Why not take just a little more time and do without a gadget?

No, it may not hurt him, but I also know people who train by other, harsher methods that don't actually cause physical harm, nor is the dog permanently scarred because of them. But it's not a manner I would choose when a better way is available.

I also feel that you've done your research and that you are a humane and caring person. But since the same results can be gained and taught without a gadget, I don't see the point. We're a society geared for shortcuts and quick fixes. But when it comes to border collies, a breed bred for partnership and sensitivity to our wishes, again, I don't see the point.

There is a better way. That's my belief. Unless it's life or death or last resort, there is a better way.

Just my tuppence, everyone's mileage may vary.

~ Gloria

[Liz P]

Lots of people know how to teach a dog a basic behavior. Few know how to proof it (which takes consistency, patience and the correct timing). For most dogs, no e-collar is needed. I would suggest you do some reading on Dr. Ian Dunbar's training protocols. His methods for proofing commands work brilliantly and are on the whole balanced and fair.

[Pam Wolf]

What Liz P said

[alligande]

What Liz P said

Add my voice to this ^^. I will also add that my current dog had a great recall as a young dog but it was not a 100% by the time he was 2 I could call him back from anything, we practice each and every walk and for him it is a great game that is played with me! my first dog trained using only positive methods and his recall is so much better than any of my other dogs because he comes back with joy

[mum24dog]

I would also like to add that the ecollar is/was not being used as the first resort. He is completely reliable on a long lead with no need for a tug to respond to commands, but he knows when it's on. We went from a 1/2" x 25ft line to a 1/2" x 40 ft line then to a 40ft line of paracord and he knows all the behaviors I ask of him on those and has learned that he has to listen when he's attached to a long line.

 

So this was more of a next step for even more freedom at a distance. He still has never been shocked, only vibrated since that is all he has needed as a correction and since that works there is no need to go higher. I'm sure everyone has felt a cellphone vibrate in their pocket, that's what it feels like.

 

If a dog can associate a "click" or "yes!" with a treat, why can he not do the same with a "No" and stimulation from an ecollar?

 

I know someone with a dog who KNOWS that the stimulation is caused by his owner. It's definitely not a correction from the universe to that dog. I also do know a dog that had been overstimulated by the person their owner got them from. I definitely put a lot of thought into this decision and didn't make it lightly.

 

I wouldn't want to use an ecollar for things like stockdog training, or agility, or something like that.

If you are only using the collar as an interruptor at present why choose such an expensive way of doing that, a way that carries such potential for escalation?

 

My then 16 year old daughter taught a good recall to her totally unsocialised collie that would scream in frenzy when seeing another dog and would like right in if off lead without the need for gadgets or punishment. I had little to do with it; she figured it out for herself.

 

If you care enough to put in the thought you have to justify your choice, why not go a

step further and find another way?

[Sekah]

I don't really have a particular problem with people using e-collars responsibly, humanely and under the guidance of another accomplished trainer. If those three criteria aren't met, I question whether it's being used as a valid tool or if it's a shortcut. I don't think it's cruel to use the collar on a vibration setting, but it doesn't sound like you're proofing recalls the way I've seen e-collar trainers proof.

 

I contemplated the use of an e-collar when I was having recall troubles with my Aussie a few years back. Eventually I signed up for Garrett's Recallers course and was able to work through our issues with food, games and motivation. It's been several years and I've been able to maintain and strengthen my dogs' recall and they're well above average when it comes to off leash control. My Aussie is now the type of dog who will hold a 30 minute down-stay in the corner while I work with clients, or walk down the street by my side untethered and is always thrilled to work with me in whatever I ask of her. I am a big proponent of working through these things positively, one step at a time.

[d112358]

I would also like to add that the ecollar is/was not being used as the first resort. He is completely reliable on a long lead with no need for a tug to respond to commands, but he knows when it's on. We went from a 1/2" x 25ft line to a 1/2" x 40 ft line then to a 40ft line of paracord and he knows all the behaviors I ask of him on those and has learned that he has to listen when he's attached to a long line.

 

With the use of the ecollar, it'll become clear very fast to your dog whether he has it on or not. In that sense, it's still a management tool like the long lead, and won't necessarily get you a reliable recall on a flat collar (since the long lines haven't led to a reliable recall on the flat and your training methods presumably aren't going to change).

[dsmbc]

people have made a lot of good comments here. I will just add that there is tons of very sound science that has been around for decades that shows that dogs do not learn or build behaviors through adversives. Adversives only act as a deterrent to "stop" a bad behavior.

 

using the ecollar to stop your dog from running off, may work, but you still have to do the work to get your dog to want to come back to you. if you do that work, it really does make the e-collar unnecessary.

 

poorly timed corrections can actually do more harm than good.

 

I know a woman who did obedience with her dog and struggled getting a solid down -- mostly because she didn't put the work in. she started using an e-collar. That poor dog started associating the shock with the down. She took the "so-so" down and tuned it into no down at all and eventually a dog that left the obedience ring when asked for a down.

[Eileen Stein]

Jescano, thank you for posting this. I know it took some courage. I read it with close attention, and feel I understand what you did, what you observed, and what you are saying. For me, it's always more valuable to hear someone's factual reporting than someone's theories of what would result if one did what the factual reporter is doing. If someone has already decided that X method is the kindest, fairest way, then they will always wonder why you are using a different way when you could be using the kindest, fairest way instead, and they're very likely to contradict you about what you're seeing and what your dog is showing/experiencing. I'm not an e-collar proponent, but I appreciate your sharing your actual experience with us.

[teresaserrano]

I must say I would like to learn how to use an e-collar. I think it might be valuable to proof recall, and also in some extreme circunstances to teach avoidance of BAD things, like moving car tires or snakes. Probably other things. But I'm not sure of it's value, as I never even saw it being used. I assume it's not needed for most things as one can teach them in other ways. It might take a bit more time, but time spent with our dog is always well spent and builds the relationship.

 

It's for sure a tool with an enormous potential for being badly used, but for me it doesn't necessarily mean it must be a bad tool. That's why I wouldn't object to learn how to properly use it with someone that really knew what they are doing. Not exactly to rush and use it on my dog, that learns marvelously with a reward based sistem. More to get a personal understanding of the tool and it's potential. Dogs are all different and one size doesn't fit all, so I like to be able to at least understand, from experience, how various tools work. I might come to the conclusion I absolutely hate it, but right now I don't know.

 

That said, I think it's not a tool to be used by the average dog owner, who doesn't even understand his dog let alone the subtelties of developing a relationship with a dog and training him. But many many people shouldn´t even have a dog... or kids...

[mum24dog]

I must say I would like to learn how to use an e-collar. I think it might be valuable to proof recall, and also in some extreme circunstances to teach avoidance of BAD things, like moving car tires or snakes. Probably other things. But I'm not sure of it's value, as I never even saw it being used. I assume it's not needed for most things as one can teach them in other ways. It might take a bit more time, but time spent with our dog is always well spent and builds the relationship.

 

It's for sure a tool with an enormous potential for being badly used, but for me it doesn't necessarily mean it must be a bad tool. That's why I wouldn't object to learn how to properly use it with someone that really knew what they are doing. Not exactly to rush and use it on my dog, that learns marvelously with a reward based sistem. More to get a personal understanding of the tool and it's potential. Dogs are all different and one size doesn't fit all, so I like to be able to at least understand, from experience, how various tools work. I might come to the conclusion I absolutely hate it, but right now I don't know.

 

That said, I think it's not a tool to be used by the average dog owner, who doesn't even understand his dog let alone the subtelties of developing a relationship with a dog Andreas training him. But many many people shouldn´t even have a dog... or kids...

So, despite the posts on this thread suggesting that training rather than short cut punishment gadgets ought to be the default approach, and despite the fact that you say that positive methods work well with your dog, you are still considering that you might possibly use a shock collar (however unlikely that may be) if taught how to do so, an action that could land you in jail in some countries, or at least very much poorer when you have paid the hefty fine.

 

Not every country has the same casual acceptance as appears to be the case in the US that anything goes in dog training as long as it works. If military, police, service, gun dogs and SAR dogs etc can be trained without using shock collars, as they are elsewhere despite what you may be told by some, then I really don't see an excuse for their existence. What is unique about a pet dog that requires such treatment compared with the challenges faced by those dogs that work for a living?

 

Respect for the opinions of others is one thing but sometimes it's OK to be honest and speak out when you think something is wrong. Not everyone will agree with you obviously but that's no reason to keep quiet.

 

By all means understand how they work but you don't need to have someone inflict it on a dog to demonstrate it to you. It's not complicated - inflict pain on the dog and it should stop doing whatever it is you don't want it to do. You just have to get the timing right and understand the unintended and potentially dangerous side effects you could be unleashing.

[Maralynn]

I will point out that just because something is illegal/could put you jail in one country it doesn't mean it is inherently wrong. It's illegal to have an elective neuter done in some countries.

[Eileen Stein]

 

Not every country has the same casual acceptance as appears to be the case in the US that anything goes in dog training as long as it works.

 

 

Whoa! I realize that you are confident you have a pretty full understanding about how things work in the US, but this is far off the mark.

 

Jescano related how she used the vibration setting on an e-collar in certain aspects of training her dog. She said that she wore the collar herself, received the same correction she gave, and that the sensation was comparable to having a cell phone vibrate in her pocket. She used it as a way to touch her dog across a distance. She related that the dog was happy to work with her, showed continuing enthusiasm for having the collar put on, and became more responsive both with and without the collar following this training. You evidently don't believe any of this, or don't care whether it's true or not. You, who were not there for any of it, say her account should be disregarded because of your belief that using an e-collar invariably inflicts pain and reflects an "anything goes" attitude toward dog training and a choice to use "short cut punishment" instead of training. You condemn someone for even giving consideration to using the method she wrote about, and expressing a desire to actually see how it works, rather than just accepting as conclusive the negative posts you and others with no direct experience have written. You are certainly free to express your opinion, but I can totally understand someone reading Jescano's account with an open mind and perhaps giving it more weight than a fervid opinion based on dogmatic belief alone. Such interest and openness to new information does not in any way indicate an "anything goes" attitude. No one on this thread has expressed an anything goes attitude.