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pet psychic again-honestly


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Hi Beth,

I did contact Morgine yesterday who referred me to someone else. Thanks. I have her number.

Just thought I'd bring the topic up one more time.

 

This is the 2 year history in a large nutshell: (it's long, sorry)

 

---I noticed this beautiful Red Merle Aussie across the street in a pen 24/7. The dog didn't make a sound, and seemed pretty meek. 4-6 months passed,through the winter. He stared at me all the time, asking for help, I swear. We began to have a lot of rain. His pen flooded. Poop filled. I began to loose sleep. Finally I got the nerve(neighbors scare me) to ask if I could walk him. They said "Do you want him? He has papers. We were going to breed him." The wife offered to help me with the puppies. While wanting to punch her in the face, I asked, " Why don't you want him?" "He's too big. " (37 lbs). "I got him from my brother" (the yeller). "Why didn't he want him?" The husband chimed in smirking, "He got a girlfriend."

 

---I took him. She said put him back in the pen if you don't want him. I took off the e-shock collar that was too small and the too small choke chain. In our fenced back yard he played with our BC. That day as my husband bent down, Shep growled and bit his hand leaving purple marks.

 

---I put him back in the pen. Next day it was a monsoon. I called the local shelter (no-kill) and brought him there. I started volunteering to keep an eye on him. 2 months later they were ready to put him up for adoption and we took him. I felt responsible. He bit my husband again. I called every rescue around and one summed it up well. "Euthanize him or deal with it." Frankly I thought 'it' would go away once he had a home, love, food shelter. That's how ignorant I was.

 

-began the only training I knew-alpha rolls, choke chain, punishment...no hitting, b/c he'd bite.

--Shep bit a child who climbed over our fence, (along with 3 others) a pinch drawing a bit of blood

-delving more into it I received great advice, resources from this board and I began to learn about positive training.

-folks recommended a behaviourist.

-found one who was a crackpot---- (I cannot find the thread-another long story)

She was just so provocative. "I can't just put him to sleep!" she said "Why, you gave him a really good year." She also said if we had a baby Shep may see the child as prey. We drove to McDonalds and I got him a hamburger. I drove 2 hrs home wondering when I was going to take him to be killed.

 

This forum came to our rescue. They helped me see how crazy she was by comparing their own experiences. They offered many resources and hope as well. One poster in particular helped us find Dr. Overall and April 28, 2005 our lives changed.

 

-Her dx was mild impulse control, mild OCD, and he's super anxious, put him on Prozac and started the protocols.

 

-He has gotten so so much better. He really is so sweet, he means well and i love him. So many folks see a huge difference. He's great with

everyone in our house. Major love bug. We still have yard/fence issues. He's snappy when I try to put Frontline on him.

 

Here's why I post now

He can't be seen by the vet unless sedated with Dormitor. Prior visits included ACE which is a big NO for dogs with anxiety. With our new vet, we had 2 meet and greet sessions and Friday he

was on 4 alprozolam and Dormitor. (He needs the whole works, shots, CBC,exams.) He's never been examined to rule out any physical issues. He fought the Dormitor for a while but finally went down, so we thought. As she began her exam, he nailed her. He reared up as if he was no drugs at all, 2 punctures, blood, his worst bite to date. I cried of course at seeing what he's capable of...how scared he still is. Back to square one.

 

I have failed Shep. Along with Dr Overalls

protocols, stacks of articles, stacks fo books, videos, dog boards, lists of trainers, programs etc., I STILL haven't gotten him far. I am very overwhelmed by all this information to where I am completely stymied. MOst of it is half read...

Just another stupid human to fail this awesome dog.

 

A friend pointed out how much Shep and I are alike. I was a bit pissed initially, but it couldn't be more true. It is the blind leading the blind. Shep makes me so nervous, I

shake...just as I am reading in the books, the dog can't sense you are nervous. We both lack

confidence. He has taught me this. The difference is, I am the only one that can save him. I just do my best each day. I work a lot and organizing life tends to be challenging for me. I am not having a pity party by any means, I am venting. Immersed in all this information, I am lost.

 

All I know is that Shep deserves to live.

 

This last episode, biting the vet- who readily took the blame for trusting the Dormitor too much has just knocked me flat.

 

That's why I want a psychic. I want to know what happened to Shep. I want to know something..anything.

 

Thanks for reading the saga.

Kim

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Kim, I wish I were more knowledgable in this area to help you. I suspect that keeping him in that pen with no human interaction went along way to making him the way he is. I feel for you and for Shep. I know how helpless you must feel. And PTS is an option, but it should really be a last option. I hope you find answers and I hope Shep learns to feel more confident that people are not his enemy. It doesn't seem like he is a "vicious" dog. Otherwise the child would have sustained way worse than the pinch. All the best to you. You are his angel for trying so hard.

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They can and will find out what happened to him for you. But chances are something someone did to him was bad enough to make him like this, that along with no socialization rather than it being his genes. Porr baby.

 

Please be sure and keep us updated on how it goes.

 

 

PS

How come she refferred you to someone else?

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I have failed Shep. Along with Dr Overalls

protocols, stacks of articles, stacks fo books, videos, dog boards, lists of trainers, programs etc., I STILL haven't gotten him far. I am very overwhelmed by all this information to where I am completely stymied. MOst of it is half read...

Just another stupid human to fail this awesome dog.

Kim - This is the ONLY thing you have ever said that makes me angry. YOU HAVE NOT FAILED THIS DOG! You have gone far beyond what virtually anyone I know would do to try and give Shep the life any dog deserves. You rescued him from a h***hole of a situation and have given him guidance and love, and worked hard to get the kind of help he needs, over and over again.

 

We humans can't always *fix* every problem that some dogs face, whether it's genetic or environmentally caused. Professionals can't always solve problems - how can you say you've failed him if you have done so much for him???

 

Please, give yourself credit for all you have tried to do. If there's something else you consider reasonable that you can do, give it a try if you'd like. I am also an anxious person and I believe that my dogs sense when I am and that anxiety affects them also, so I understand what you are saying.

 

There was a young lady on these boards recently who had aggression problems with her young dog and repeated attempts by herself and the very capable breeder to improve the situation just didn't bring lasting results. A trainer at a clinic saw and liked the dog, took him, has solved his problem, and is now training him with hopes towards making him a useful stockdog. The young lady now has a youngster that is much better suited to her situation and capabilities.

 

Other friends had a dog that was so thunder-phobic that he was hurting himself seriously. Finally, after a great deal of effort and attempts to deal with the problem, they took their dog to be euthanized. His phobia was THAT bad.

 

Why did I mention these two incidents? Because I believe that at some point, when you have done what you CAN do, you may have to do what you don't WANT to do. That may be rehoming Shep (and with his bite history, that's going to be nearly impossible with good conscience, as you know a rescue won't accept a dog with a bite history) or that may be considering that euthanasia is an option you can't dismiss.

 

A dog with aggression issues, whether from fear or not, is a walking liability. Worse than that, an aggressive animal poses a threat to yourself, your family, and those he comes in contact with.

 

No matter what you decide, I hope that you will get over feeling you've failed Shep. The only "failure" would have been if you had never interceded to help him in the first place.

 

Best wishes in resolving your difficulties with Shep (and best wishes to Curly, too).

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This is true. I had to have my last rescue put down. He was too aggressive. And we tried everything in our power. But he had been too badly abused by his first owner and, he was only 1 yr old!!

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Hi there Sue.

You have always been there for us. Thanks so so much. Glad to hear from you.

 

I have to answer to some points your raised.

 

Professionals can't always solve problems - how can you say you've failed him if you have done so much for him???
I realize ALL problems can't be solved. I TOTALLY realize the liability issues. I recognize the euthanasia option and feel there is a place for it. There are circumstances that make it the only option, EVEN when a dog is not that bad off. I realize the strain it has put on me, my marriage and family life. (ie, if children come over he has to boarded). I am not trying to be a hero or saint or whatever. I just know in my heart, he shouldn't die.

 

The reason I say failure is b/c I am a member of 2 other aggressive dog boards. People w/ dogs that have killed other dogs even. People on both these boards have success!! They do! People commit themselves and just do it and have success. Until this last vet visit I thought I was one of those people. I know we arn't super-far along, but we were getting there.

 

If there's something else you consider reasonable that you can do, give it a try if you'd like.
There are things I haven't done. IE Shep had never been to formal training. At first I wanted to work on the behaviour mod. I just came to the decision we need a class (I started to learn clicker on my own) and then this happened. I am having a heck of a time choosing a trainer. All the positive trainers are an hour+ from me, except for one-- I'll probably go with her. There are all these other options too. (Camp Reward, Pam Dennison, Pat Miller and a few others.) I have not exhausted all avenues. That's my failure.

 

I can admit a lot of things. I can admit I do not like to loose. If I had to end Sheps life, I loose. I loose in ways that would turn this long post into a novella.

 

There was a young lady on these boards recently who had aggression problems with her
Yes, I followed that thread. What a wonderful outcome. I actually was one of the folks that said 'dream on' as far as finding that 'farm in the country', and SHE DID!!! HA! Such a great success story.

 

Curly is doing very well. He has chilled out quite a bit as predicted. He's probably about 5 now. On a day as hot as today he'll catch his frisbee about 5 times and then he's done. He really can not tolerate heat. In the middle of nite he wakes me up panting. We have th AC on! Actually he'll be seeing this new vet for that b/c it worries me. He's going to Lake Sebago in Maine with us in August where he will swim his tail off and then snore like a human all nite. I've been trying clicker with him too. He spends his time staring at he clicker, wondering when I am going to click and which hand the food is in. It's all a game.

 

Thanks again for responding. Sorry to make you mad. :rolleyes:

 

Hey is Bute new?

 

Kim

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Kim, I commend you for doing what you've done to bring this animal along and I sympathize with your situation. I know how hard it is to deal with the emotions of the constant duress having a dog with issues. I find myself in a similar situation with my new Aussie that had been abandoned(although, he has never directed even a hint of his aggression toward me.) My journey with him is just beginning and I am following the same path you described: behaviorists, vigilance, controlling environment, reading, researching, resources from this forum etc.

 

A vet visit is usually terribly stressful for any dog with issues, let alone one whose impulse is to protect himself any way he can. I think it's very sad and unfortunate that poor Shep went through that experience with the vet. To your vet's credit, he/she acknowledged some responsibility for the ugly outcome.

 

I will say this w/r/t an animal communicator. Even if there were one who could give you a window into his thoughts, it doesn't change the bottom line, which is to say, you are still looking at trying to redirect his behavior and modify his emotions. IE, you help the animal that stands before you. There is nothing you can do to change his past.

 

In many ways, my Boo is so fortunate to have landed in my little world. I live alone, so only I control the consistency of his training and environment. I don't have scads of people coming and going, don't have children around that could expose me to liability or intensify his stress levels, in short, I'm in a pretty good position. That said, though I am committed to trying to help him over his fears, I recognize that not every story can be a success story, no matter how herculean our efforts. I have high hopes that Boo will adapt, though I may have to maintain my vigilance over his behavior forever. I know I will do all I am capable of for him, but that still may not be enough. Intellectually, I can tell myself I am not to blame. Emotionally, well suffice to say, when I contemplate his uncertain future, it makes me weep.

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I don't really have any advice, I just wanted to wish you the best of luck finding a solution for Shep. I really respect people who try to stick it through, who exhaust every option for their dogs, and feel a little shame that I'm not one of those people.

 

I still feel like I failed Tad, so I understand a little, at least, that kind of feeling, and I'm not sure I'll ever get over it.

 

That being said, I don't think you've failed your Shep at all, no matter what you decide. You rescued him from a horrible situation and gave him a taste of kindness. That's so much more than many people would even think of doing.

 

I will say that behavior modification with a clicker may be a good thing to try if you're up for it. Tad's outbursts got much more controllable when I actively worked with him that way (he got to where he'd ignore people unless they got really close), but he was still very unpredictable.

 

But best of luck to you and Shep, I'll be thinking of you two. I know how hard this is.

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Originally posted by Jenalyn:

I still feel like I failed Tad, so I understand a little, at least, that kind of feeling, and I'm not sure I'll ever get over it.

 

Jenalyn, why would you feel you failed Tad when you were able to find him a situation in which he is thriving. What more could anyone ask for??
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Thanks for the good thoughts everyone.

 

Nancy

I am so glad you posted. It sounds like Boo is in the perfect hands. The fact that his environment is so controlled bodes very well for him. We live on a corner. There's kids screaming and running, people on bikes, w/dogs etc so to work with Shep can be tricky. I have a husband...altho, he's not "into it" as he told me one day. So...consistancy is impossible. To know that simutaneously across the country someone else has these experiences is very comforting. It just is.

 

 

I will say this w/r/t an animal communicator. Even if there were one who could give you a window into his thoughts, it doesn't change the bottom line, which is to say, you are still looking at trying to redirect his behavior and modify his emotions. IE, you help the animal that stands before you. There is nothing you can do to change his past.

This is quite a powerful statement. I know it's true. You're 100% correct. I should take the $40 for a 1/2 hr phone consult and buy the best beef liver treats in the whole wide world and keep working. It's that need to stretch into the universe b/c that's all that's left...! My urge to call, however has subsided. (for now)

 

when I contemplate his uncertain future, it makes me weep
.

Yes, I know what you mean.

 

 

Jenny-

...and feel a little shame that I'm not one of those people.

 

I still feel like I failed Tad...

Jenny I wish you felt incredible about how you handled Tad. You found him a perfect situation. I was so envious (but estatic for you) of your choice and the outcome. It's a win/win, what else could a dog or human want? Congratulations again. You saved Tad. Always remember that.

 

I just re-read your thread "Hardest Thing" and for me it was a meaningful one. I am so glad I read it again actually. I should buck up and take my own advice really.

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My use of the word "angry" was relative, Kim. I just admire all the emotion, time, effort, and money you've put into making a good life for Shep that it really bothered me that you were so down on *yourself*.

 

Different folks would deal with Shep's issues in varying ways and with who-knows-what level or lack of success. The crux of the matter is he wouldn't have had a life worth living if you hadn't stepped in and rescued him, and then tried and tried to help him out of the problems that his breeding and/or prior environment gave him.

 

You are the only one who can decide what you will do and what the future will be for Shep. I think you realize that there are a number of folks here who are hoping, like you, for the best possible outcome but most will understand if you can't be successful in making a good life for him in the way that you'd like to.

 

Yes, Bute is new. Celt needs some "back-up" with the cattle as it's more than a one-dog operation and Megan is not well-bred. What she does well, she does very nicely but she is very limited in her stock-working abilities and is not always a complement to Celt's working style. As Celt reaches his prime, Bute will be coming along and Bute will be reaching his prime when Celt is getting on. I hope that will work out well for their stockwork on the farm.

 

Best wishes and prayers for success, and peace of mind with whatever you feel you need to do. Remember, "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference". I think that has a lot of application to your problems with Shep, as it does to many of life's issues.

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Originally posted by nancy in AZ:

Jenalyn, why would you feel you failed Tad when you were able to find him a situation in which he is thriving. What more could anyone ask for??

I was VERY blessed that Wink took him, I agree, it's more than I could ever ask for! Tad's really doing well, too, Wink is very happy with him. I know Tad's much better off with Wink than he would be with me, and I know he's probably much happier for it, without the stress of suburban life. It's hard to explain, but in spite of that I feel like by rehoming him I gave up on him. So many other people have stuck it through with their dogs because they loved them so much or couldn't in good conscience stand to give up on them. Before Tad, I was confident that I could work through any potential problem one of my dogs might have with good training, good advice, patience and preserverence. Tad was a bit of a reality check, and I hate to think of what might have happened if we hadn't found him such a great home.

 

(Sorry for hijacking your thread a little, Kim )

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Remember that sometimes "sticking it through" with a dog may not be in the dog's best interest. I know a couple who rehomed a dog that just wasn't happy in their household but is thriving (like Tad) with a new and loving family that provides the kind of life that suits the dog perfectly.

 

I think that the hardest thing for some folks to know is when to "give up" and to do it, when it is the best thing to do for the dog's sake. JMO.

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Originally posted by Jenalyn:

It's hard to explain, but in spite of that I feel like by rehoming him I gave up on him. So many other people have stuck it through with their dogs because they loved them so much or couldn't in good conscience stand to give up on them. Kim )
And yet, by rehoming him, you showed that your concern for his well-being was more important than a misguided need to be the one who could ultimatley help him succeed. In my eyes, it was an act of true love, wisdom, and unselfishness.
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Another quick note, I need to chime in and give Shep his props. I am not that great--- Shep is pretty great. You guys, I seriously call him Sweet Pea. Shep wants to be here. He loves us...desparately. He lays down on his big bed and just watches us cook or go about things. He recieves food gently and sweetly and is grateful. When people come over he's pretty excited. Sometimes, he will 'fall in love'. It starts with the leaning. Then he'll put one paw up on their knee slowly and then the other slowly and boom ! he hops up in their lap. He doesn't run off, but stays by our side and waits. He gives gentle little licks. He grooms Curly. After he does his business and I say 'Who's a good boy?' he get real low and runs like the wind, happy that I am happy. He looks after my 16 yo cat. No matter how many times that cat slaps him in the face, Shep just turns away. Where ever my cat lays down, Shep lays down about 5 feet away, just glances never challenges him. It's so sweet. He's one of the happiest animals I've ever met. He requires very little----ummm, aside from the obvious. For instance in the morning, Curly gets pretty naggy and bossy. Shep just waits for us. If we want to sleep in, he'll sleep in. Where Curly's more like "GET UP YA LAZY BONES!"

 

So Shep has many many awesome qualities. Just had to honk his horn a bit within this discussion.

Thanks again

Kim

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Kim - I reread your earlier post on this thread and, maybe I'm way off base here but, have you ever considered something like a basket muzzle when Shep has to go to the vet? You could also use it during other, non-threatening times just to allow him to be comfortable with it and not associate it only with the vet or anxious times.

 

Right here and now, is the vet the only aggression issue you haven't been able to manage? If so, would a basket muzzle be a help and not a negative thing? A dog can eat, drink, and pant in one but can't bite.

 

It's easy to see why you love this dog. Whatever you do, you'll have lots of support here and people wishing you the best, and keeping you in their thoughts and prayers. Bless you for all you've done for Shep, and I hope you find the right answer to his problems.

 

If you don't want to get me riled up again, take back "I am not that great". I think you are, and so do Shep and Curly.

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Gotta chime in and say YOU'VE NOT FAILED! You've done everything you can, and a whole heck of a lot more than most folks would have done.

 

In your own words, you talk about what a sweetie Shep is. Your description of him 'falling in love' is very heart warming. It's due to you and your efforts that Shep has had the chance to show that sweet side and be that wonderful dog. I know you're upset about the vet visit, but here's another thing to consider - you've gotten more info, and you've got a very understanding vet.

 

YOU'VE NOT FAILED, NOT AT ALL!

 

Along w/Sue, I'd recommend a basket muzzle, use it a lot. Have it on him briefly in the house a couple times a day, minimum. Feed him that beef liver thru it and at no other time. Then, try the vet again and use the tranquilizers as well.

 

Even if, at some point, you decide that the kindest thing to do is euthanize Shep, I still don't think that all of your efforts and love and patience with him can in any way be considered failure. Calm yourself down first, take all these objective and supportive posts into account, and take the pressure off yourself.

 

Ruth n the BC3

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You haven't failed that dog in the least. You've done the most for him that anyone could expect. He's had a great life, a great chance to redeem himself - and probably will continue to have it.

 

I just wanted to add about the vet - Zeeke is not an aggressive dog, other than some guarding issues (which have ONLY occured towards me personally). But at the vet, he is generally muzzled. He flipped out at the vet one year... snarling and snapping. So shep biting a vet.... I don't think that's really something to be too upset over, I think with all his anxiety issues the vet is going to continue to be a hard time for him - no matter the progress you've made with him. Even some of the best of dogs dislike the vet!

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I got a muzzle for my nutty bitch that was mutilating herself. I thought she could never work stock because she'd shut down even after the mildest correction for biting sheep. I worked her with the muzzle on a few times and just let her sort it out with no correction from me. She's not as worried now because I'm not yelling at her. It is not a miracle cure all but you might try it.

I think a lot of agressive dogs are feeding off of their owner's anxieties. Perhaps if you are relieved of your concern of a serious bite it may help.

 

muddy

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Kim, my good old Floss dog had a hard life before she came to me. She was fine in general, but if a stranger bent down over her and put their face close to hers, she would snap. I just didn't let that happen. It was a long, long time before *I* could put my face down to hers, but one day I decided that I could, and I was right.

 

I never took her to the vet's without putting a muzzle on her after she was in the exam room. It was no big deal, and didn't make me think she was hopeless or I was hopeless. I just recognized that she shouldn't see the vet without a muzzle on. Oh, I take that back. Her last visit to the vet, the day I took her in to be put down, she was so old and weak I didn't bother with a muzzle. As the vet bent over her, she made one last weak snap at him. He smiled sympathetically and said, "You'd get me if you could, wouldn't you, you poor old girl."

 

Anyway, I would take that $40, and instead of wasting it on a pet psychic, I would buy a nice plastic muzzle, and spend the rest on a nice bottle of wine, so you can sit back, put your feet up, sip a glass and reflect on the progress you've made with this dog.

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