The get out/ get back

[caraline]

Hello,

I am curious to see if anyone has advice on how to get a dog to backoff of stock. I have a 1 year old who is quite novice. On a good day, he will do an outrun and fetch of a short distance, walk-up, and flanks ok-well depending on direction and # of sheep. The one thing he doesn't understand/won't do is get out. Off stock, he knows what that means. If we play fetch, he will turn around and get back 5 feet or so. On stock, get out means dive right in with no regard to the pressure of the person or sheep. We've tried having one person guard the sheep and another closer to him, same thing. Would anyone try putting him on a long line and having someone lead him back when asked to get out? I plan on switching the word for the command to make a different association, but I'm just not sure how to make him understand. Any help is appreciated.

[lookback]

Firstly, depending how much of a novice the dog is, you may be expecting too much too soon. Once the dog's working with you as a team, it's a lot easier to get it to go back off the stock.

 

You should teach the dog to keep out from the stock on command. What the command is, is irrelevant as long as it's clear, unique and you're consistent with its use.

 

With sheep, you can walk through them and make it perfectly clear to the dog that you want it to go back. With a dog that's difficult to stop, I do this, and if the dog insists on creeping forward, I walk through the sheep and send the dog FURTHER back than it was originally. This way they soon learn that it's pointless to creep forward.

 

This is much harder and possibly dangerous with cattle so I don't recommend it with anything bigger than sheep.

 

Another way I know of is to have the dog on a very long line and send it out to the stock which should be located near a post or tree. The dog passes behind the post and as it comes forward onto the sheep you can now hold the rope (with gloved hands or you might get burns) and even pull the dog back to show it what you mean.

 

It's not a technique I use because its very slow and clumsy but it can be effective if you can stop the rope getting tangled.

[Mark Billadeau]

I wonder if your attempts at get back have happened after the dog has gotten too close.

[caraline]

Well my dog has a good down most of the time and doesn't creep. We've been trying to work on the get back because he has an insane amount of presence, even the heaviest sheep become light if he gets anywhere near them. I'm still learning myself so we are trying to find a sweet spot. He has a tendency to dive in if he gets too close, so I thought a get out command might help. Maybe it is too soon

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

There are no magic words. Pick a command that means "Get off your sheep" and stick to it. A growl is better than a lecture.

 

Before they find their method, young dogs often have "an insane amount of presence" because the sheep sense a dangerous amateur. When calling them in the first few times after ewes and newborns leave the barn, my started dogs can bring ewes quickly (sometimes abandoning their lambs) that open dogs must move patiently (with their lambs). I don't recommend this but when the feed is already down . . .

 

In training, when a young dog is working too close, he's in attack mode (even those who'll grab wool but never bloody a sheep) and literally cannot hear your fervent commands. He must be outside the "attack" range to listen and think.

 

Once he's attacking, you've lost. You must sense his intention when he can respond to your bellow/threaten/step forward/shake your stick pushing him out. If you're late (and most novices will be late), make an example of his unacceptable wickedness by marching at him ignoring the sheep, balancing so he can't flank around you, THREATENING to drive him out. When you've pushed him so far back he's almost losing interest, let him go again.

 

Don't praise him for getting out. For most dogs and most novices at this stage, praise breaks the rhythm and ruins the lesson.

 

Donald McCaig

[caraline]

Thanks for the words. I'm working on making my bubble bigger than his so I figure that's part of the problem. Herding is still new to me and I do work with a trainer, but it's always good to hear other viewpoints and methods.

[Gloria Atwater]

The Donald has excellent advice. A common difficulty with novice handlers is that they react to a dog's behavior rather than being proactive. If a dog has already made the mistake, you're already too late to administer the best correction.

It just takes time and miles to get your timing down, but meanwhile, you can work on observing the point where your dog starts to think about coming in too close. If you're flanking him, there is apt to be a certain point of the "compass" where he likes to come in, or if you're fetching or flanking there's going to be a certain distance at which he stops listening. Once you discern that, you can work on checking or stopping him just before he breaks that invisible distance barrier.

You might also try putting the sheep behind you in a corner or against a fence, and work on teaching him an "out" or "back" (the word is immaterial) while the sheep are safe behind you. If he has a big bubble, then you may have to move out further to get him back. This is pretty much what Andy speaks of. You increase your bubble by walking towards your dog and by your presence moving him back. I wouldn't recommend drilling the heck out of this, but it's something you can do two or three times and then move on to do something else.

As Andy says, it may also be his age. It's better to have a keen youngster who works a little close than get a young dog out too far, too soon. He IS going to change as he matures and understands his work better, and a lot of that may sort itself out with maturity. The one thing you don't want to do is end up fighting him for that distance, as that just creates tension and stress in both of you.

In the long run, you'll probably grow to love that power and "big engine," when he's grown and moving things that other dogs falter or fail at.

~ Gloria

[Smalahundur]

On a related note, do you people use a different command for "get out", as in widen your flank/stop cutting in, and "get back", as in move directly away from the sheep, so the opposite of the walk in?

I know of at least one handler here that uses the same command for these two, what do you think is more practical?

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

Many handlers develop a flank modification so the dog gives the sheep much more room (at the pen with skittish sheep for instance). Mine are "Come OUT" and "Keep AWAY". Once the dog is trained the "stay off your sheep" becomes less necessary and when a dog buzzes them I correct with "Getoutofthat."

 

Some handlers train a "Back" command for chute and pen work when they want the excited dog to reverse - take a few steps back. I think that's sometimes handy but I don't train it. Even close up and walking, "Getoutofthat!" will get them to release the pressure.

 

Donald McCaig

[CMP]

Interesting topic with a good discussion. Thanks for that.

 

Although I don't personally handle dogs on sheep, I grew up around it/live with it - and it seems to me that the thing I always hear handlers teaching other handlers is that it is their responsibility to not let the dog fail if possible - and that means knowing the dog well enough to stop him from making the mistake.

 

Different stakes, I know - but it's not different than training an 8 week old puppy - you have to watch for the signs and not let them herd you/bite your ankles and stop it before it starts. Trying to undo a behaviour which is driven by instinct and hard coded genetic imperatives is hard - so you need to teach the dog to resist the urge rather than correct the mistake the urge created.

 

Again, take it for what it is worth - I am NOT a handler except in that semi-dangerous second hand way.