gameonborders Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Newbie Question: I am trying to learn the art of training and trialing sheepdogs with two very different dogs. My older dog, Grit, is very pushy and I have been spending quite a bit of effort to teach him some patience/pace. He likes to immediately get up from a down and start pushing on the sheep. My younger dog, Addy, is not nearly as pushy and seems to have naturally have patience and pace. The problem I have recently started having with her is that she won't get up from a down. Some days are better than others but if she is told to lie down or lies down on her own for more than a few seconds she gets "stuck". She has a lot more eye than Grit. She does better if I send her on a flank, but if I am just having her fetch sheep to me as I am walking around the field she'll tend to get "stuck" if I stop her. My first thought is to just avoid letting her lay down for too long to avoid her getting "stuck" but I don't know if avoiding the problem is the best way to fix it. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Yep, stop with the lie down and ask for a standing stop. Work her on larger groups so that she has to stay on her feet more to keep the group together. Watch for when she wants to lie down and move yourself so the sheep move so she can't get sucked in and clap. You can do flanking exercises as well, where you stop her and then immediately flank her one way or the other, it will help with flanks and also get her anticipating the next move and hopefully not thinking so much about lying down. But mainly just don't ask her to lie down unless you have NO other choice. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red russel Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Yup. What Julie said. Stop with the lie down. Also... ask her to manage her own sheep. Help to to know how to pace her stock and move them along in a workmanlike fashion without lying down. Dogs can release pressure from stock without it as they gain more experience. I have a young dog that tends to lie himself down when he realizes he is too close to his stock. I like the way he is thinking and am now helping him get a better feel of the sheep's bubble and how to manipulate it. I ask him to "get up" when he lies down. maybe a little "ah ah" softly... barely a correction. don't want to amp him up or think he has done something wrong. I love where his mind is at... just helping him be in the same mindset while on his feet. If i put the responsibility of good work on my dog instead of me managing his position with a "lie down" he will learn what i'm looking for and realize his own potential. It is his job to bring me sheep correctly, not mine. I'll help him get set on a line then it is his to hold that line and pace correctly. It is fun when you see the "oh shit! i can do this!" look on a young dog's face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gameonborders Posted July 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Thanks so much for the advice. I only have 6 sheep of my own to train on. I can try to go to some places that are about an hour or two from me to work some larger groups, but I won't be able to do that very often (1 or 2 times a month). Should I stop working my own sheep for a while or can I still train her some at home in between our trips to other places? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red russel Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 have you found an experienced hand to provide lessons or take you under their wing? where are you located? perhaps we can point you in the right direction. dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gameonborders Posted July 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Thanks. I do have someone I am working with but due to some unfortunate circumstances we haven't been able to get a lesson in recently...I have been trying to keep Addy on her feet more and that seems to be working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red russel Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 in your video it sounds like you are asking her to lie down and she is getting off contact. also looks like she isn't really getting to work her sheep so, when off contact, is hesitating to get up and get back engaged... kind of like "what's the point if I don't get my sheep..." she isn't getting to work much and isn't really learning from her mistakes because she isn't really getting a chance to make any. your sheep are pretty broke so you have to be creative when working with them to give your dog a chance to engage and find balance. we have all been where you are now... just need a bit of help and guidance from a good hand working with you. dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 May I ask you to describe what you're working on here? When you ask her to lie down is it because she's not turning in on balance (overflanking) or she's turning in but coming on too fast? If it's the former, she needs to be allowed to figure it out on her own rather than being told what to do (be allowed to make mistakes, as Dave noted). If it's the latter, why not give her some opportunities to push (i.e., you move faster). I can't easily hear what you're saying to her, except for the lie downs, but my overall impression from this video is similar to Dave's. It's 10 minutes of boring stuff (for her), not being able to really work and learn how to feel the stock and adjust to them herself. She does get stuck, but it may be in part due to feeling like she's not *allowed* to really do anything. I'd like to see a lot more interest in her and less of what looks like a dog who's being obedient. I hope that makes sense. Let her work. Keep her moving. Alternate between fast and slow. Make it more fun/engaging for her. Try to let go of some of the control and let her do some figuring out on her own. Don't ask her to lie down. If she's overflanking, just give her an "Ah, ah!" or "Hey!" and let her figure out what's right. The same if she's coming in too fast. Find some practical things to do. Move them from one pasture to another. Gate sort (be careful with something like that if it encourages her to stick). Push them off a feed bunk. Things that help her to "see" a point to it all and make trai n ing more interesting for her. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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