Pushy on the drive

[JaderBug]

What tools and techniques do you use to help a dog learn to control their speed and rate their stock/feel lateral pressure?

 

I've been working with Pepper to get her to slow down while fetching/driving. She's very pushy and very fast, sends sheep at a lope (canter?) and causes them to fan out. I want to slow her down and help her realize that she doesn't need to move that fast as it disturbs the sheep, but I don't want to shut her down and risk losing that push either.

 

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions? Thanks!

[lookback]

It sounds as though you need to improve the dog's stop.

 

Keeping the dog well back then calling it forward again, using your voice tone to show the dog it should slow right down is a monotonous affair but will pay you dividends.

 

If you're physically fit and prepared to (maybe) take a fall or two while you learn, spend lots of time walking backwards with the dog bringing the sheep up to you - but well back.

 

Teach her to bring the sheep at the pace you move back at - steadily (not darting forward then stopping).

 

I know of no shortcut for this.

[Mark Billadeau]

I've used the methods Andy described and also taught slow down while balancing, depending upon the dog.

 

Just like you taught your dog flank commands while balancing (say word while your dog flanks to balance point after you changed it) you can teach your dog a slow down command (change balance point very slowly and tech your dog a slow command). The dog needs to learn to stay on balance and at the right distance off the sheep; you are right there to correct the dog. I found this method more effective for me with two fast flanking dogs that I have.

 

Above all I have found for me that fast dogs must be very responsive to the down and I must have very good timing.

[juliepoudrier]

Okay, what about a dog who might have a tendency to clappiness, where one might want to minimize downs? Working on slower flanks is a good idea, but does anyone have any other thoughts?

 

Note, the dog in qustion doesn't appear clappy yet, but it certainly runs in that line, so don't want to encourage it.

[Mark Billadeau]

I used slow balancing with Peg and Nell as a means to teach a slow down command which I now use in all situations; much like teaching the down (or stand) while balancing. The goal was not just slow flanks but pace and a pace command. I also take advantage of a good stop in that my slow down whistle is tweeeet-tweeeet (as opposed to tweet-tweet for walk-up); they hesitate at the first blast (expecting a stop = tweeeeeeeeeeet) and then proceed at the slower pace with at the second blast.

 

Julie, does the dog need to slow down in order to maintain control of the sheep and not upset the sheep? Bette prefers to work a bit faster than other dogs we've had but she does not upset her sheep at this faster pace. It took Renee a bit of time to get comfortable with Bette's faster pace.

[lookback]

Okay, what about a dog who might have a tendency to clappiness, where one might want to minimize downs? Working on slower flanks is a good idea, but does anyone have any other thoughts?

 

Note, the dog in qustion doesn't appear clappy yet, but it certainly runs in that line, so don't want to encourage it.

 

It's probably not my place to say Julie, but it's generally less confusing if you start a new topic when you want to ask about a trait as different as yours to the original question.

 

Having said that, a "clappy" dog should be encouraged to keep moving at all times (where possible). Clapping down becomes a habit and can be very difficult to break as the dog gets older, so with your potential offender, I recommend you encourage it to keep moving as much as possible.

 

If however, you can stop the dog and it's quick to respond when you give a new command, it's quite likely you don't have a problem, in which case, I'd train it normally.

[JaderBug]

Her stop at home has been pretty solid, but so far at trials she's either slow to stop or sees it as a suggestion... which I suppose would mean it's not REALLY that solid :-)

 

When she's fetching to me and I am facing her, her pace is alright. She lies down quickly at home when I am facing her, but when she is driving away from me, she breaks into a lope and pushes right through the sheep, and is slow to lie down. I'll lie her down and get her back up, but I don't think it's registering that she doesn't need to be pushing that hard. I don't think she's thinking about what she's doing on the drive. My trainer always says "use the sheep" to show how wrong they are, but at a distance I'm not sure how to do that aside from letting them scatter so she can see what she's caused. (?)

 

I'll definitely try walking backwards with the sheep, see if that helps.

[lookback]

If I understand you correctly, this is really unusual! As the driving distance increases, the vast majority of dogs will, of course, succumb to the temptation to flank around the sheep and bring them back to the handler.

 

In your case, the dog works fine close at hand but when driving, as the distance increases she'll speed up and apply so much pressure that the sheep split?

 

If this is the case, I think you should reduce the distance to that at which the dog works correctly then walk along behind the dog to maintain this distance. Give the dog whatever praise you normally use (if any) to impress upon it that you like it to work this way. When all's going well, drop back a couple of metres (yards). If the dog keeps it's steady pace, carry on at this distance for a little while, before increasing again - and so on.

 

If the dog at any stage begins to speed up, stop it and reduce the distance again. (In other words, the dog will get the message that if it speeds up, you'll stop it).

 

If the dog's harder to stop when working away from home, it suggests the dog's young(?) and excitable. You need to work it in new locations with unfamiliar sheep whenever possible so that it's no longer as excited when it goes somewhere new.

 

On re-reading your first post though, I still think you need to work on the stop. Get some video of yourself working the dog - is she REALLY stopping as well as you think?

Another big help is to give yourself and the dog tasks to do. Training lulls you into a false sense of security. If you give the dog a stop command, it doesn't really matter if the dog stops several yards later than you wanted. But if you're trying to get the sheep around some obstacles, the dog must stop in the right place - otherwise it all goes wrong.

[Mark Billadeau]

How is your dog when training on different sheep and field than your "home field"?

Are trials the only time you are on different sheep and fields?

[stockdogranch]

I agree with everything Andy says. I am wondering, how new to driving is the dog? As Andy says, this is really unusual, and I'm thinking perhaps the dog doesn't quite yet really understand driving, but is merely trying to get to the heads? So, what might tend to look like driving is just really a controlled escape to get around to the heads? Does this make any sense? I agree--video would help a bunch!

A

[Tea]

take a lesson on this from Patrick Shanahan or another good teacher.

[juliepoudrier]

 

 

[juliepoudrier]

Mark, this is Birdie, so we're just starting. She doesn't have flanks (commands) yet or anything, and right now we're working the goats, who tend to want to run past the human. I'm not one to put commands on at the start; I want her to learn to feel and figure out her own influence on the stock.

 

Anyway, I don't want to offend anyone by hijacking this thread, though I thought talking about different types of pushy dogs could be interesting. I've trained all the others to open level, so I'm sure I can get Birdie there too. Really just thought to expand on the discussion a bit, but as that's unwelcome, I'll let it go.

 

J.

[MossyOak]

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[JaderBug]

How is your dog when training on different sheep and field than your "home field"?

Are trials the only time you are on different sheep and fields?

 

On different sheep she's generally pretty excited. We make it over to my trainer's fairly often, but since I have her sheep at my place, it's like working the same sheep. I've been working on getting out to different fields and different sheep. We'll be visiting another field/group of sheep tomorrow (she's been to just a couple times), next week we'll be going somewhere totally new to both of us. Most other available fields are at least an hour or more (mostly more) from us, so it's not always easy to work other places. Definitely need to put more emphasis on that though.

 

Think I'll run out get some video in the morning (mosquitoes are eating us alive tonight) and try to get some video of Pepper driving, I'm never very good at explaining what's happening on text

[stockdogranch]

Julie--you're talking about on the fetch, right? Do you have access to other stock? I have found with pushy ones that might have the tendency to be sticky that working them on a bigger group of stock (or better yet, for me--calves!!) helps back them off a bit and keeps them on their feet at the same time. Gives them more to think about and have to keep track of. If they have that much eye, getting them to keep moving behind a larger group works ok--you don't have to worry about that type getting too flanky, generally.

A

[juliepoudrier]

Hi Anna,

It is mostly fetching, but since the goats often race past, I will sometimes turn and do a tiny bit of driving too if the situation warrants it and I can make it happen. I very much train using whatever the situation presents at the moment.

 

The main issue I have is that the stock I'm using are not mine, and so I have to accede to the wishes/concerns of the owner, or more to the point, her helper at the farm. I can't take the sheep in the various pastures and combine them to make a larger flock (or I would have done so already), so I just have to use what's available in the pastures where I can work a dog.

 

(I am trying to get some pasture to lease so I can put some of my original flock back on it and use them. They are lightly dogged, were worked really only to move them from pasture to pasture or for maintenance reasons and generally only by my trained dogs, so they are very honest and good for youngsters that I bring along. Keep your fingers crossed I can make that work out!)

 

Anyway, there is a slightly larger group of sheep I can use, but they are very light. They are fine for fully trained dogs that know how to handle them. The other day she got in with them and brought them to me at 90 mph, but she didn't bounce anything off the fence or otherwise damage them, so I may just take her into that larger area with one of my trained dogs as a perimeter holder and see what I can make happen there. The worst that will happen is they're outrun everyone, but I guess I'm up for the challenge, lol!

 

I had already been doing some of what Mark suggested regarding trying to get a time command on her flanks and on the fetch without actually stopping her. She shows moments of very nice pace and I really think she will be a nice driving dog (that is, it won't be difficult to teach her to drive).

 

A bit of history: Her mom Lark is clappy, but is very courageous and can move anything, and she is at her best on cattle (or cranky rams). Lark was the second dog I raised and trained from puppyhood, and she's 8.5 now, and I made the mistake of not correcting for the strong eye/tendency to clap because I was still pretty novice back then (regret not putting a stand on instead of a lie down--went back to try and fix it later with mixed results). I haven't really had that issue with any dog since, but Birdie has eye and I think if I'm not careful she could be made (allowed to be) clappy, so just looking for "outside the box" ideas that I might not have thought of.

 

I just brought the whole topic into this discussion because I normally train just as Andy suggested, but I wanted to add to the discussion the whole "know your dog's potential holes" and "once size doesn't necessarily fit all" for anyone else who might be following because IMO improving the stop (at least if by stop we mean lie down), while it may be good for most dogs, might not be so for dogs with a potential to become sticky. So really just an academic question to see what other people think about a slightly different dog than the OP's, but one that is young and pushy too.

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

Julie, I'm glad you brought up the idea of knowing what potential issues one may have with a particular youngster and adjusting training to fit. I think that is one of the biggest issues to be aware of, and of course, one can't even be aware of it until one has dealt with a number of different dogs.

 

I also agree with Mark as far as working to get a take time on the fetch (I have never tried to slow down a flank--not sure I can imagine when I would want to do that). Does she have a down whistle? I have found if I use a quick, shortened version of the down whistle they seem to understand that I mean to take time--I can think of a few that that worked for.

 

I hope you keep us posted on how this works out. How old is she now?

A

[juliepoudrier]

Exactly Anna. My dogs are all related, and so it was easy enough with my Twist pups to watch for any tendency to excessive wideness and prevent it or correct it through training. But they all have little differences, too, which is what makes training so interesting--just when you think you've got a good plan, some dog will come along and toss a monkey wrench in there!

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

I have never tried to slow down a flank--not sure I can imagine when I would want to do that

I wish I had a video of Nell when she was young; then you would know when slower flanks would be helpful. Sheep often don't like a fast flanking dog. Again, my goal wasn't just to slow down the flanks but to use the exercise as a means to teach a slow down command.

 

Julie, if you can get away for a weekend and would like to come up let us know. We have a guest room and lots of different terrain (not flat) for training. Some really nice fields to working younger dogs and about 150 ewes & lambs.

[stockdogranch]

Ahh, Mark--you've nailed it! Because I primarily work cattle (once I have a bit of a start on a young dog), a fast flank is never an issue. Tight flanks are not even much of an issue, in fact. But, yes--on sheep, I can see where a fast flank could be upsetting, and just making a dog like that wider could lead to other problems.

 

Julie--I think that is why starting the youngsters is s much fun for me--seeing what they bring to the table and how they interpret things is fascinating.

A

[juliepoudrier]

Mark,

I may try to take you up on that. I'd sure love to see your new (well, not so new anymore) place!

 

Anna,

Birdie is 15 months and I really have just started her in earnest, when it's not too hot to take her out there anyway. We probably won't be able to make any significant progress until fall when the temperatures are more conducive to getting regular training in. I wouldn't train hardly at all if I didn't have youngsters to play with. I don't like drilling, so once my dogs are trained, we generally stick to practical work. If I can afford to start trialing again, I will need to do some tuning up, but in general I just really enjoy working with the greenies (it was the same when I worked with horses regularly too--I really enjoy the learning phases the best).

 

J.

[bcnewe2]

I have a fast flanking young dog. It's not the fast flank I want to slow down, it's the idea that she is rushing in the beginning just to get to sheep. Her distance is right but her mind isn't. She is slowing down a bit as she learns to relax a bit. But She was so fast in the beginning I couldn't mentally keep up with her.

[Mark Billadeau]

I found with my Nell that when she slows down she thinks (as oppose to reacts). I went through about a year with Nell when she was simply a PITA; racing so hard to get to where she wanted to be and didn't care what I was trying to tell her. Making her move slowly and having her just lay there with the sheep (for example tending grazing sheep) help to calm her mind.

 

 

Tending is an interesting exercise. The dogs need to stay calm enough around the sheep so the sheep will relax enough to graze. They will need to flank correctly to move individuals or a few sheep back into the proscribed area without disturbing the others (pushing all the sheep out of the area on the other side). They will need to get up after laying near the sheep (not a good exercise for dogs with lots of eye). They may need to walk up in the face of sheep that have their heads down. And this is more like a job as opposed to drilling.

[emilyfalk]

I have also taught slow flanks to 2 of my fast-flanking dogs: Gabe has a ton of presence and can upset sheep even from a distance, Liv (Bette's daughter) flanks fast but doesn't upset the sheep (when her excitement is contained). I use "steady" for slowing flanks and "time" for walking up. Good for close quarters, fence-lines, and at the pen or shed. I don't often need to use it, but a handy tool, and mostly a reminder to cool their jets

 

As Mark said, I've known several top trainers to teach them pace via flanks.