Found our Puppies Prozac

[Nathan]

^^^ Yes. And eventually you'll get to where they just go in thier crate to relax, to sleep, bc they're unsure of something. The crate is def not a bad thing and I'm very thankful for it.

[HJTRAS]

UNDERSTANDING YOUR BORDER COLLIE:

WOLF INSTINCTS

Dogs have strong natural instincts that derived from their wolf ancestors. Most dogs resemble the wolf in many attributes. Of course, some hundred years of domestication and evolution you would expect your regular domestic dog to act differently from the wolf in the wild. Nevertheless, it’s easy to notice some of the wolf traits all dogs have.

Some of the basic similarities include:

 Strong sense of smell and hearing, primary used to detect prey for hunting.

 Vocals, such as howling and whining, are still present with domesticated border collies. This is to communicate in certain situations.

 Communication through body language, eyes, ears, etc.

 Panting in order to eliminate heat.

 Basic traits such as hunting, territorial behavior, sexual instincts, and pack instincts are all present among most dogs.

What’s in a Pack?

Ever heard the term “a pack of wolves”? This describes a small group of wolves that hunt and live together. They protect each other and establish social structure ranks.

These wolves communicate using vocals, bodily language, eye and facial expressions. In your household you may only have 1 or 2 border collies – but the border collie sees the “family” as the pack. So the border collie will defend every pack member to death.

Territorial Disputes

Some dogs will start up a fight with another dog over whose left corner of the dining room is. The truth is, border collies are dominant dogs and they will fight for territory.

Not only are they protective of their territory but of their pack members as well. The dog won’t be territorial outside in the park – because that’s not his territory and he feels no need to defend it.

Hunting Instincts

Wolves are predatory animals. They use their amazing scent of smell to track down prey before they strike and pounce. Of course our dogs don’t need to hunt for their food – but whenever you come across a squirrel or rabbit you will notice that your dog’s hunting instincts instantly activate and he’s ready to chase it.

This is the trait dogs acquired from wolf ancestors and it’s what helps them survive in the wild. Have you ever seen your puppy play with a squeaky toy? To you it’s just playtime, but for border collie it is real hunting experience as he “snatches” and “bites” until the squeaky toy dies.

This is why your border collie likes to chase things around such as bikes, balls, kids, or even cars – because they think they’re hunting.

Sexual Instincts

Wolves have strong sexual instincts. They can detect a bitch in heat. The male alpha dog tends to mate with the alpha bitch of the pack – and everyone else left to harass the lower rank bitches that come in to heat.

Whenever a bitch is in heat you will find a lot of prospective suitable canine candidates hanging around your property for the duration.

[Pipedream Farm]

Source?

Reference?

Authors?

[Maralynn]

Where did that come from?!? There is a LOT of misinformation in it. My Border Collies are not gonna defend me or my other dogs to the death. My first one would have possibly engaged someone but the other 3? No way. By and large the breed is not dominant either. They sensitive, intuitive and want a leader to take charge. And by being a leader I mean being consistent rules and boundaries not the "must be alpha" mentality.

[GentleLake]

Ummm, citation, please? Without it to evaluate the source, it's meaningless.

 

I find it very hard to believe this is from a reputable source.

 

Honestly it sounds like it's from one of those websites that plug in Breed XYZ name into an existing template that's really just general about dogs. And if the author purports to know so much about border collies, where's the information about herding instinct?

 

I disagree that border collies are a dominant breed, or that they will protect their pack to the death.

 

Perhaps you've never heard the joke about border collies being guard dogs? That they'll greet the burglars at the door and ask them if they can help them take all the stuff out?

 

Of course there are exceptions, and if truth be told none of my border collies has ever been in a situation where it was called upon to protect me, but I really can't imagine any of mine being particularly defensive of me.

 

If sources like this are where you're getting your information about border collies, it's no wonder you're so ill informed. I don't mean that as a personal criticism, but a statement of fact about what you seem to know (and not know) about border collies.

[HJTRAS]

Ok I hope I am not violating any copy right infringement But its Deanne Rosenburg Stubborn to Obedient. Border collies owner guide. I loved the the book my only comment.

[CurlyQ]

UNDERSTANDING YOUR BORDER COLLIE:

WOLF INSTINCTS

Dogs have strong natural instincts that derived from their wolf ancestors. Most dogs resemble the wolf in many attributes. Of course, some hundred years of domestication and evolution you would expect your regular domestic dog to act differently from the wolf in the wild. Nevertheless, it’s easy to notice some of the wolf traits all dogs have.

Some of the basic similarities include:

 Strong sense of smell and hearing, primary used to detect prey for hunting.

 Vocals, such as howling and whining, are still present with domesticated border collies. This is to communicate in certain situations.

 Communication through body language, eyes, ears, etc.

 Panting in order to eliminate heat.

 Basic traits such as hunting, territorial behavior, sexual instincts, and pack instincts are all present among most dogs.

What’s in a Pack?

Ever heard the term “a pack of wolves”? This describes a small group of wolves that hunt and live together. They protect each other and establish social structure ranks.

These wolves communicate using vocals, bodily language, eye and facial expressions. In your household you may only have 1 or 2 border collies – but the border collie sees the “family” as the pack. So the border collie will defend every pack member to death.

Territorial Disputes

Some dogs will start up a fight with another dog over whose left corner of the dining room is. The truth is, border collies are dominant dogs and they will fight for territory.

Not only are they protective of their territory but of their pack members as well. The dog won’t be territorial outside in the park – because that’s not his territory and he feels no need to defend it.

Hunting Instincts

Wolves are predatory animals. They use their amazing scent of smell to track down prey before they strike and pounce. Of course our dogs don’t need to hunt for their food – but whenever you come across a squirrel or rabbit you will notice that your dog’s hunting instincts instantly activate and he’s ready to chase it.

This is the trait dogs acquired from wolf ancestors and it’s what helps them survive in the wild. Have you ever seen your puppy play with a squeaky toy? To you it’s just playtime, but for border collie it is real hunting experience as he “snatches” and “bites” until the squeaky toy dies.

This is why your border collie likes to chase things around such as bikes, balls, kids, or even cars – because they think they’re hunting.

Sexual Instincts

Wolves have strong sexual instincts. They can detect a bitch in heat. The male alpha dog tends to mate with the alpha bitch of the pack – and everyone else left to harass the lower rank bitches that come in to heat.

Whenever a bitch is in heat you will find a lot of prospective suitable canine candidates hanging around your property for the duration.

 

So very outdated. When was this book written? Check this out, I found some interesting articles for you to read. Dogs actually don't operate like wolves.

 

http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2007250,00.html

http://www.examiner.com/article/dog-whispering-the-21st-century

http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/dominance_statement.pdf

http://loveandaleash.com/2012/08/23/do-unto-others-intimidation-in-dog-training/

http://io9.com/why-everything-you-know-about-wolf-packs-is-wrong-502754629

 

Especially this last one...

 

http://academyfordogtrainers.com/blog/2013/are-dogs-pack-animals/

[GentleLake]

I haven't heard of this one.

 

May I ask where you got it?

 

Again, I'm really leery of anything in this book based on what you've posted from it. Even the title is troubling -- why anyone would start out with the premise that dog in general and border collies in particular are stubborn is a huge red flag. It sets up an adversarial relationship between you and your dog before you've ever even opened the cover!

 

Behaviorists caution against using words like "stubborn" to describe their dogs even when they're not doing what you want them to for just this reason. We can't know what's going on in a dog's head, and projecting intent like this can open us up to a great deal of frustration and less than effective approaches.

 

There are so many better sources of information about border collies than this. I really hope you can let go of such a misguided source of information and open your mind to other sources of information that will help you have not only a much better relationship with your pup, but a more realistic one.

[Maralynn]

I googled her... Her website reads like an infommercial and her claim to fame as an expert is that she has sold 2700 books. I cannot find anything on her site to back up what she says either. And I'm not trying to sound stuck up or smug but honestly at least half the people commenting on this thread have more experiece with better success than she claims to have had.

[chene]

http://www.lovelybordercollie.com/stubborn-to-obedient
This is what came up from google. I didn't read all of it - the lose-50-pounds-in-just-7-days kind of format was getting on my nerves. Maybe someone else will feel like checking out how reputable it is overall.

EDIT: Sorry Maralynn, posted at the same time. Infomercial is a good word for it. HJTRAS what things did you find good about the book? Not being snarky, I just think you'd be the best person to explain it since you've read it.

[GentleLake]

Yeah, it really does read like one of those websites touting the non-pharmaceutical miracle cure that'll fix everything from obesity to depression to toenail fungus without a shred of scientific evidence.

 

I won't completely condemn it until I've seen it (our 4 county library system doesn't have it in any of their member libraries so I may have to go farther afield), but it's definitely raising lots of red flags for me.

 

HJTRAS, if you want to know more about border collies, I'd recommend spending at least as much time reading these Boards' archives as you did that book . . . and I'd be willing to bet money I don't have that you'll learn a darn sight more about them than you will from that book.

[chene]

Okay, so I read through most of the site including that page, and a lot of the information was correct, but (and maybe this is bias because of the format) it sounded a bit like she was just quoting things she'd read without really understanding them. And there was definitely some info that made me uncomfortable, such as talking about how hyperactive border collie are and how they always need to have stuff to do (that was on the training page I believe) or saying that personal dog trainers are bad because the dog might learn to trust them more than you. Also the statistics, such as that the ABCA says it's a proven fact that 93% of border collie owners inadvertently train their dogs to misbehave. While some people do do that, I couldn't find any evidence of the ABCA ever said that (and quite frankly it was a stretch even to try).
But I can't prove any of these things wrong, never having had experience with them myself. They just make me uncomfortable.

[HJTRAS]

Yeah, it really does read like one of those websites touting the non-pharmaceutical miracle cure that'll fix everything from obesity to depression to toenail fungus without a shred of scientific evidence.

 

I won't completely condemn it until I've seen it (our 4 county library system doesn't have it in any of their member libraries so I may have to go farther afield), but it's definitely raising lots of red flags for me.

 

HJTRAS, if you want to know more about border collies, I'd recommend spending at least as much time reading these Boards' archives as you did that book . . . and I'd be willing to be money I don't have that you'll learn a darn sight more about them then you will from that book.

So I have read some really good info here. Do not look at me as an idiot because I read a book I just keep my options open. But just don't take everything you hear as gospel. I disagree on things for me but may be fine for you. I am not trying to insult anyone. But I really wish they would respect my right to agree or disagree.

[Maralynn]

"quoting without understanding" yeah, I got the same feeling. Not all the information was wrong, but it read like numerous other "secrets of training X breed" sites that I've seen and it seemed like the information was collected from various sites and republished there.

[Eileen Stein]

Also the statistics, such as that the ABCA says it's a proven fact that 93% of border collie owners inadvertently train their dogs to misbehave. While some people do do that, I couldn't find any evidence of the ABCA ever said that (and quite frankly it was a stretch even to try).

No, the ABCA has never said anything like that. We have no knowledge of how many border collie owners inadvertently train their dogs to misbehave, and it's not something we would make a pronouncement on anyway.

[GentleLake]

I'm not looking at you as an idiot (there you go either making assumptions or exaggerating again), but I do think you've probably gotten yourself a poor source of information.

 

With inadequate, or possibly even incorrect, information, anyone's going to have a hard time understanding things as they really are.

 

I was an academic for many years. One thing that was drummed into me from the start was to make sure I had reliable source materials. Without good sources, (generic) you can't formulate a good thesis or argument. And you'll certainly not be a competent educator without good sources for your background information.

 

So what I'm saying here is that it would be in your best interest to be looking for good sources of information to understanding the breed. And if you're better armed with more accurate information, you're less likely to be making those off the wall statement about border collies that people are having such a hard time swallowing.

[HJTRAS]

"quoting without understanding" yeah, I got the same feeling. Not all the information was wrong, but it read like numerous other "secrets of training X breed" sites that I've seen and it seemed like the information was collected from various sites and republished there.

I liked the book it has a world of RESOPSIBLE information. God knows this is not a plug to buy the book I did and it has been a really good tool. its been really helpful for me.

[simba]

It seems to be hard to find good training books with a lot of the kind of information you want in them. Most of the ones available in bookshops are more basic than the information you get on forums or blogs, and they usually only show you one approach to a problem. If that approach doesn't work for you, well, too bad.

[HJTRAS]

I'm not looking at you as an idiot (there you go either making assumptions or exaggerating again), but I do think you've probably gotten yourself a poor source of information.

 

With inadequate, or possibly even incorrect, information, anyone's going to have a hard time understanding things as they really are.

 

I was an academic for many years. One thing that was drummed into me from the start was to make sure I had reliable source materials. Without good sources, (generic) you can't formulate a good thesis or argument. And you'll certainly not be a competent educator without good sources for your background information.

 

So what I'm saying here is that it would be in your best interest to be looking to understanding the breed. And if you're better armed with more accurate information, you're less likely to be making those off the wall statement about border collies that people are having such a hard time swallowing.

Congratulations with your Academics. Your accomplishments are to applauded.

[GentleLake]

It seems to be hard to find good training books with a lot of the kind of information you want in them. Most of the ones available in bookshops are more basic than the information you get on forums or blogs, and they usually only show you one approach to a problem. If that approach doesn't work for you, well, too bad.

 

They're available on line. All you have to do is ask for some recommendations and people will tell you about lots of good titles and trainers who've published awesome stuff.

 

Pet shops are probably the worst source for training or breed books. There may be some exceptions, but they'd be small, privately owned shops.

 

And I agree; most book stores and even libraries have woefully inadequate selections.

 

One red flag in a training book -- unless it's something specific like training sheepdogs -- is something that claims to be breed specific. General training isn't breed specific.

[Eileen Stein]

Was it Confucius who said, "It's good to avoid piling on when you're beating a dead horse"?

[HJTRAS]

Well in the end it all adds up to a beautiful puppy

http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/hjtras/media/ziggy_zpsb21d9932.jpg.html

[chene]

Eileen, you are too wise for us all.

Alright, so as someone who is quite new to both border collies and raising my own puppy, I found that these boards are my primary resource, because you can find information on virtually anything related to dogs/border collies here. By reading every new thread that came up and by browsing through FAQ's, archived, and just generally popular old threads, I got the best information I possibly could have - better than a book, in my opinion, because a book doesn't allow for the discussion aspect. As far as books, though, After You Get Your Puppy by Ian Dunbar is one of the more helpful basic ones I read, despite the fact that he is rather over-the-top about how important everything is. The other two I'm really looking forward to reading are Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt, and The Dog Wars by Donald McCraig. I've heard that the first has some excellent exercises and ideas for dealing with and preventing a reactive dog (which a lot of border collies are by nature). The second, I believe, is just huge in understanding the culture and the background of the breed whose life you are now a part of.
Just some suggestions to help learn more about the breed and the species you are dealing with - and if can never hurt to learn more! There is, of course, a forum specifically for all of the resources there are out there, and there are tons of interesting and helpful ones.

EDIT: HJTRAS knows how to calm down a raging pack of border collie owners...very cute!

[d112358]

The other two I'm really looking forward to reading are Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt, and The Dog Wars by Donald McCraig. I've heard that the first has some excellent exercises and ideas for dealing with and preventing a reactive dog (which a lot of border collies are by nature). The second, I believe, is just huge in understanding the culture and the background of the breed whose life you are now a part of.

 

Tip with CU - I've heard that the puppy program is a little easier to read. The regular CU book reads more like a lesson plan for a class.

[Gloria Atwater]

Very very interesting. I have never heard of the author or the book. I do have issue with a couple of statements quoted from her. If folks will indulge me, I'll pick a few points.

 

What’s in a Pack?
Ever heard the term “a pack of wolves”? This describes a small group of wolves that hunt and live together. They protect each other and establish social structure ranks.
These wolves communicate using vocals, bodily language, eye and facial expressions. In your household you may only have 1 or 2 border collies – but the border collie sees the “family” as the pack. So the border collie will defend every pack member to death.

 

I have no idea where the author came up with this. In 25 years around working dogs and a dozen years training my own, as well as countless hours at sheepdog trials hearing every sort of dog story known to man ... I have never ever once even heard of one single incident to back this up.

Border collies are not attack dogs. They are not guard dogs and they don't attack to "defend their pack." If this were the case, every sheepdog trial or hill gather would run the risk of turning into a blood bath, since most handlers and shepherds travel with several dogs.

And I've never heard of a border collie fighting anything to the death. Livestock guardian dogs perhaps - some have been known to kill coyotes who come for their flocks - but not border collies! This is so far out in left field as to be almost frightening.

 

Territorial Disputes
Some dogs will start up a fight with another dog over whose left corner of the dining room is. The truth is, border collies are dominant dogs and they will fight for territory.
Not only are they protective of their territory but of their pack members as well. The dog won’t be territorial outside in the park – because that’s not his territory and he feels no need to defend it.

Border collies are no more dominant or territorial than any other breed. They are certainly not prone to aggressively defending their "pack members."

If anything, border collies tend to be touchy about their own personal space, and most would really prefer to be left alone. Yes, they can be snappish towards dogs who get too close to them - especially the pushy, bouncy, overly-happy types such as labs or rottweilers - but this is because they prefer NOT to get in anyone's face. In my experience, they are most apt to get defensive if a rude/pushy dog fails to heed the border collie's "stay away from me" warning signs.

Some border collies can indeed be territorial or aggressive, but it's erroneous for this author to state that an aggressive, territorial dog won't be aggressive away from his own corner. This is a blanket statement that could be dangerously misleading.

Hunting Instincts
...... To you it’s just playtime, but for border collie it is real hunting experience as he “snatches” and “bites” until the squeaky toy dies.
This is why your border collie likes to chase things around such as bikes, balls, kids, or even cars – because they think they’re hunting.

 

Not exactly. I've seen border collies chase and kill varmints like squirrels and rabbits, but that's different from the compulsion to chase bikes or cars or kids.

A border collie is motion sensitive and exciting movement such as bikes, cars or running children triggers not a hunting instinct, but rather the urge to control or contain whatever is moving. That's what herding is - not hunting, but controlling. We see the same thing in other herding breeds such as Kelpies, Australian Cattle Dogs and Australian Shepherds. There is a difference!

Border collies react to movement because that's what they are bred do: respond to the movement of livestock. But it's far more complex than a latent "hunting" instinct that's been out of use for 30,000 years. When one watches a working border collie at his job, one sees just how complex the herding instinct is.

Sexual Instincts
Wolves have strong sexual instincts. They can detect a bitch in heat. The male alpha dog tends to mate with the alpha bitch of the pack – and everyone else left to harass the lower rank bitches that come in to heat.
Whenever a bitch is in heat you will find a lot of prospective suitable canine candidates hanging around your property for the duration.

This is certainly nothing unique to border collies! And if somebody lives in a neighborhood with a lot of "suitable canine candidates" hanging around their bitch in heat, I'd say they need to build a stout kennel, call animal control and pound on some neighbor's doors. I don't see where this actually has much to do with border collies, as a breed.

This author is selling something, plain and simple. And though her website looks like she's selling vitamins or weight loss tablets, what she's really selling is her book. I am not enamored by the alarmist headlines on her website.

MY REBUTTAL:
Here is what a border collie truly is. A border collie is the end product of hundreds of years of sheepdog breeding by farmers and shepherds who needed an intelligent partner to help them on the farm. He is strong enough to bite a cranky ram on the nose until the ram turns and gives up the fight, and yet gentle enough to nudge a befuddled baby lamb along with just the tip of his nose. He is wise enough to stop and stand over a weak or sick ewe and wait there until his master comes to help him with the problem. And he is clever enough to work a flock of several hundred sheep down a hill a thousand feet high, and not lose or injure one along the way.

The border collie is energetic because he was bred to travel 30 or miles a day. He is intelligent because he was bred to evaluate the behavior of another species (sheep) and to adapt his own behaviors to get them to comply with his directions. He is independent because he was bred to do his work from 400 yards to a mile away from his shepherd, with little or no directives. And he's a good partner because he was bred to do all this things as an integral part of the shepherd-sheepdog team, where teamwork was the difference between a wasted day and a job well done.

I get the impression this author has limited understanding of the border collie's true heritage or what came together to make him the dog we know today. I'd venture that most border collie problems are due to owners who also fail to grasp the border collie's heritage, and who find themselves overwhelmed by the energy and intellect of these phenomenal dogs.

I am a champion of the working sheepdog. That is where their roots lie, where the genesis of their amazing minds remains, and that is where understanding of the breed must begin. Not with wolves. Not with packs. Not with outdated training methods that could honestly be re-labelled to fit almost any breed of domestic dog.

The border collie is not a wolf. In fact, he could scarcely be further from them. The wolf does not partner with Mankind. The border collie wants nothing more.
Respectfully submitted,

~ Gloria