"Lie Down" - What does it mean?

[gameonborders]

I was introduced to dog events through obedience competitions. In those events, I can see a clear end to a down. My dog is supposed to lie down when I say and stay there until I give a release cue (in my case "Break") or I cue another behavior (such as "sit" or "come").

 

Since I have begun working my dog on stock, I am not seeing the same clear distinction telling the dog when it is allowed to get up from the lie down. It seems handler's ask for the dog to lie down, but then the dog gets up on its own at times also. I understand that I want the dog to be thinking and reading the stock and making decisions based on those things, but it seems confusing to me (and my dog). When I ask for a lie down, I get it, but quickly my dog is up and moving again. He will get up if the sheep move, I move, I say something, etc.

 

So what do experienced sheepdog handlers do to make it clear to the dog when they are allowed to move and when they should stay put? Should my dog only be allowed to get up when I ask for a flank or walk up? Or should he be allowed to get up if the sheep start to leave?

 

Thanks in advance for any advice. We are training for our first trial and I would like to make sure that both my dog and I are clear on the meaning of "lie down" before we get there.

[Pippin's person]

I found this confusing, too. I've come to understand it this way: The lie down with stockwork is more organically tied to the fact of moving sheep than to being a discreet command followed by another discrete command (if that makes sense). The lie down is mostly to take/keep pressure off the stock and to help the dog move the sheep with as little stress as possible. If you think of the lie down as a brake, it might help you see how it's most useful for stockwork. If the dog gets up and is right ( e.g. Is approaching and moving the sheep right), then you can generally let it move, if it's wrong, you stop it again. If it doesn't get up when you need it to, you move it so it does with a flank or a walk. Knowing what to do with the lie down is tied to being able to read the sheep and what they need in order to go where you want them to.

 

Good luck at your trial.

[Sue R]

I think that what Robin said is really good!

 

It seems to me that a lot of what is wanted in the command (or whistle) "lie down" is in how it's said, anything from a "think" or "slow down" to a genuine "lie down on your belly now and don't move". Sort of like the degrees of collection, slowing, or halt you can get with the different uses of rein and body when riding a horse.

[juliepoudrier]

I found this confusing, too. I've come to understand it this way: The lie down with stockwork is more organically tied to the fact of moving sheep than to being a discreet command followed by another discrete command (if that makes sense). The lie down is mostly to take/keep pressure off the stock and to help the dog move the sheep with as little stress as possible. If you think of the lie down as a brake, it might help you see how it's most useful for stockwork. If the dog gets up and is right ( e.g. Is approaching and moving the sheep right), then you can generally let it move, if it's wrong, you stop it again. If it doesn't get up when you need it to, you move it so it does with a flank or a walk. Knowing what to do with the lie down is tied to being able to read the sheep and what they need in order to go where you want them to.

 

Good luck at your trial.

^^This.

 

In my case, depending on the dog I am working, lie down may simply mean stand (i.e., not necessary for the belly to hit the ground). With a young dog I might give less leeway and with a fully trained dog I might give more leeway, but ultimately as Robin notes, it's really all in the context of what the stock are doing and if the dog is reading the stock and responding appropriately.

 

J.

[Gloria Atwater]

I was introduced to dog events through obedience competitions. In those events, I can see a clear end to a down. My dog is supposed to lie down when I say and stay there until I give a release cue (in my case "Break") or I cue another behavior (such as "sit" or "come").

 

Since I have begun working my dog on stock, I am not seeing the same clear distinction telling the dog when it is allowed to get up from the lie down. It seems handler's ask for the dog to lie down, but then the dog gets up on its own at times also. I understand that I want the dog to be thinking and reading the stock and making decisions based on those things, but it seems confusing to me (and my dog). When I ask for a lie down, I get it, but quickly my dog is up and moving again. He will get up if the sheep move, I move, I say something, etc.

 

So what do experienced sheepdog handlers do to make it clear to the dog when they are allowed to move and when they should stay put? Should my dog only be allowed to get up when I ask for a flank or walk up? Or should he be allowed to get up if the sheep start to leave?

 

Thanks in advance for any advice. We are training for our first trial and I would like to make sure that both my dog and I are clear on the meaning of "lie down" before we get there.

 

 

Sue and Robin did a great job of defining it, so I'll just add my "dittos."

 

In trialing, you're leaving a good bit of discretion in the dog's paws, so obedience-style training isn't quite what we look for. Yes, we want the dog to stop when we ask, but there are degrees of stopping, is the way I'd describe it.

 

Yet even a hard stop doesn't necessarily mean, for my dogs, they should lie down and put their bellies in the dirt. A hard stop just means I want the feet to quit moving! But often "lie down" means "wait just a sec" or maybe it means, "listen up, I'm going to give you another command," and sometimes it just means "pay attention."

 

Confused yet?

 

See, when you're working close at hand, say a pen or the shed, you'll be using verbal lie down commands and you can use your voice to indicate the level of urgency and meaning. But at a distance, you'll be using a whistle, and that's where a "lie down" or stop can start to acquire extra nuances. You can blow a sharp, hard stop to halt all motion, or just tweet a very quick stop to precede a flank command, (so in effect, the dog barely ceases motion) or you can just blow a half-stop as a "steady" command, which simply means to slow down but not necessarily halt altogether.

 

But you do not want to make every stop so absolute that you take away your dog's initiative. That's where obedience style stops become useless. Your dog needs to have the ability to read his sheep and react to things that you may not be quick enough to react to. He can see and DO - you have to see and command and THEN he responds. That's lag time that could mean a lost or escaped sheep.

 

So, it's kind of a fine line, but learning to find degrees of stopping will become a very useful thing. By all means, make sure your dog knows what a solid stop is and enforce that. You'll need it and you don't want him sliding through stops when it really counts. But also realize that sometimes "lie down" is just a punctuation mark to doing other things.

 

Hope this helps!

 

~ Gloria

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

Some years ago, I had an internet squabble with Fred Hassen, an ecollar trainer whose program is called "sitmeanssit", when I remarked that for sheepdoggers "down" doesn't necessarily mean "down". Mr. Hassen (who to my knowledge had never trained a sheepdog nor handled a ewe) kindly offered to come to my farm to train my sheepdogs with his device but I declined.

 

The "down" is a complex tool. Sometimes it's the dog submitting to the handler. At other times, it's the dog reducing pressure on the sheep (the resting wolf is less dangerous than the wolf on its feet). The down may be a "check" or a "focus break" in the work but there are times at the International Shed when downmeansdown.

 

I cannot decide which is the more utterly necessary command, the dog's name or the down - yet there are top handlers who say they never want their dog to stop.

 

To enrich the confusion - frequent downs might be counterindicated for the dog with too much eye but suggested for the hard or excited dog who isn't listening to his handler.

 

And, however uttered, the "down" is a correction. You're telling the dog "No, you're not doing it right. Let's do it differently." Experienced dogs take "downs" as a matter of course (or ignore them), inexperienced dogs can lose heart after too many too harsh downs.

 

Some novices overuse the down because sheep/dog/handler/dog/sheep/allwhirlingaround: DOWN!!! Not a good strategy.

 

How you use the down depends on the sheep, the dog, your working relationship with that dog and the great dog you dream about. Experienced handlers don't always agree. When I hard down my dog, I want him to down, pause for a moment and get back on his feet and contact. If he must stay down ( when spotting for others, etc), I'll repeat the down. Others want the dog to stay down until called up.

 

Understanding the "down" -that most basic command - is understanding sheepdogging. I haven't got there yet.

 

Donald McCaig

[Sue R]

I am and probably always will be a novice. I am one of those mentioned who has a fall-back on the down as a way to stop the action because my brain and/or body is not able to process and respond to things as they are happening. I was fortunate enough once to work for just an hour with Scott Glen, and a lightbulb moment happened - I realized that he was not using the down as a "brake" but rather as a "clutch". Different intonations and whistles allowed him to "change gears" on his dog, anything from a change of speed to a complete stop. Sometimes using that imagery helps me understand the down in all its manifestations much better.

[Pam Wolf]

Down or any other command means whatever the dog was taught. Years ago a guy had a comedy routine where the dog's 'commands' were taught differently. IOW, sit meant lie down, stay meant come etc. it was funny.
Down to a stockdog means whatever the team (handler and dog) have made it mean. With stock work, like with service dog training, sometimes there is an "override' to commands where the dog is told to do one thing and something happens rapidly and the dog must do another in order to do the job best. (love it when my dog corrects me that way)

[juliepoudrier]

And to add to the complexity, let me add a specific example. I set sheep at trials. When I have the sheep where I want them, my dog will either lie down on its own (usually the case) or I will ask it to lie down. In this case, the lie down really means lie down and don't get up--unless the sheep try to bolt for some reason, in which case I want the dog reacting instantaneously to keep the sheep contained before the competing dog is at a location on the field where it can reasonably take control of the sheep. So when my main set out dog chooses to sit or stand instead of lie down once we've got the sheep settled, I recognize that he's likely reading something I'm not and he doesn't feel comfortable just lying down. The interesting thing is that in these cases, he knows his job so well that when the competing dog is near enough, he will lie down, effectively choosing to give up control of the sheep to the other dog, with no input from me.

 

Once he's down and the other dog has "control" he will not get up no matter what, even if the other dog is running sheep all over the top of the field. At that point, he knows it's not his business.

 

And yet contextually, if I am working him at some other job, he will take lie downs completely differently. He generally prefers a standing stop, and unless I have a reason to really want him on his belly, I accept that, because as good as I am at reading stock, I know he's better and can react faster.

 

J.

[Sue R]

That is so neat to read about, Julie. Intelligence, instinct, and biddability, all working together.

[gameonborders]

Thanks for the replies everyone...though I am not sure that I have a much clearer understanding than before .

Since I am such a novice at reading stock, it is hard for me to know when my dog is blowing off my "lie down" command by immediately getting up and working again and when he is right because the sheep caused him to have to move. I will certainly keep all of this in mind as I work with him and try to get better at reading the stock. Thanks again for the help. I am glad I have found this resource as I am sure this will be the first of many questions

[Camden's Mom]

This has been incredibly useful information. Just last week at our lesson Camden took a lie down but then popped right back up. I started to "walk him down" and my trainer stopped me and (in the confusion of everything) tried to quickly explain that "lie down" does not always mean "lie down". I came home a bit confused and then *viola*, gameonborders started this amazing thread!

 

 

Some novices overuse the down because sheep/dog/handler/dog/sheep/allwhirlingaround: DOWN!!! Not a good strategy.

 

Wow. Boy did that statement hit home. Thanks, Donald. Tomorrow when I'm out there with him I'm going to be repeating this to myself over and over. I've got one of those inexperienced dogs who could easily lose heart, especially as a novice handler who is making mistakes left and right tries to boss him around. Seriously, thank you for your post... what a great reminder. (Sheepdoggin' is complex)

 

Julie - what an awesome post. It clearly illustrates the trust a handler has to have in their dogs natural instinct. I can't imagine how many working hours it must take to build that kind of relationship and understanding between dog and handler...

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

That complexity is one of its fascinations. That said: most of these dogs will, in inexpert hands, go out and gather sheep and somehow bring them to their handler and, should the handler wish it, most of these dogs can get the sheep into the corral. Although more skill is rewarding I will never forget the first time my 8 month old Pip sailed into the field (no input from me) got around fifty sheep and brought them to my feet. I never knew a dog could do that. I didn't know a dog could be so beautiful.

 

Donald McCaig

[Pippin's person]

Thanks for the replies everyone...though I am not sure that I have a much clearer understanding than before .

Since I am such a novice at reading stock, it is hard for me to know when my dog is blowing off my "lie down" command by immediately getting up and working again and when he is right because the sheep caused him to have to move. I will certainly keep all of this in mind as I work with him and try to get better at reading the stock. Thanks again for the help. I am glad I have found this resource as I am sure this will be the first of many questions

One way to think about this as you are learning to read the sheep yourself is to remember that you can always say lie down again. Without giving your dog a hard time, just lie him down again. If he doesn't take it, give him trouble. (Though there, too, is a lot of nuance. Sometimes, it's not fair to ask for it). Generally speaking, it's worse for them to not take it when you ask than to break it before you think they should. I think of "blowing off" more as not taking the down I ask for than breaking a down they are in.

 

And be generous with yourself and the dog. This isn't easy to do (IMHO) and takes a long time and a lot of mistakes. Advice I got on reading sheep that I found helpful: Move the sheep around yourself. Spend a lesson without the dog just being with them and watching them. Remember that doing this is first and foremost about the sheep--not about you, the dog, or a trial. Imagine moving them as if they are about to lamb. I do all of that and read them now at about a third grade level--and that's when I bring my A game ;-)

[red russel]

one of the most common challenges with lie down is that it can be used as a crutch. novice handler or trainer not really prepared for what is happening or things are happening too fast... the default command is lie down. often to the detriment of a learning opportunity. what we may want is our dog to be thinking, reading their stock, treating them appropriately... we don't really want a down but want the dog to work or behave differently... perhaps measure themselves against the stock a bit, take a bit of pressure off. often, in those situations, what we ask for is a down.

 

sometimes folks ask for a down from a conditional perspective... this can create challenges when the handler REALLY wants their dog to stop. not conditional. not negotiable. STOP!!! we have all watched and heard folks asking, begging, screaming at their dogs to lie down all the way down the fetch to no avail... i think this is often caused by folks allowing to much gray area with their dog while laying their starting foundation.

 

i get allowing my solid open dog to make decisions 700 yards away. i encourage it and train for it. but when he started out, down meant down. not negotiable.

 

the best advice i've gotten is don't ask for a down unless you really mean it and if you ask for it, get it.

 

my apologies... my response feels a bit disjointed.

[BMS]

Both my current boys are agility dogs, and have had a realllly hard time getting up from a 'lie down' unless given the 'break' command.

 

We've broken the older dog on this habit, as he's more keen, but I have stopped herding with my younger all together. He's my world team hopeful and I truly didn't want to muddle any criteria.

 

Honestly, I have no advice. Just wanted to let the OP know that we are in the same boat.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

"Lie Down" has different meanings to obedience, agility and sheepdog trainers. I don't think we "see" the same dog and, since Border Collies are accommodating, they try to become the dog we see.

 

Each of these human/dog activities has a complex and powerful culture. Last fall, when a top obedience trainer asked me for my and Fly's help with an obedience dog's problem (We were to be the threatening but harmless distraction) the obedience trainer semi-apologized to her students that fully trained Fly didn't have a "heel" by saying, "They don't train like we do."

 

While I know some very good sheepdog handlers who previously won obedience and agility titles with their dogs and one top agility handler who competed in open sheepdog trials, going back and forth between cultures is difficult if not impossible. One cannot serve two masters.

 

Crosstraining may be easier for the dogs.

 

Donald McCaig

[airbear]

It's not that hard. Seriously. It's a matter of time and money (and interest, of course). I've been running in open sheepdog trials since 2006, and competing in agility since 2001. I enjoy both activities. For some reason, people think it must be crazy hard to do a sheepdog trial one weekend and an agility trial the following weekend. It really isn't. You just have to remember whether it's the weekend where you pack jeans (herding) or yoga pants and an optional tiara (agility). V important that you don't get those two wardrobes mixed up. :-)

 

While I know some very good sheepdog handlers who previously won obedience and agility titles with their dogs and one top agility handler who competed in open sheepdog trials, going back and forth between cultures is difficult if not impossible. One cannot serve two masters.

[juliepoudrier]

Kristi,

Weren't your trial dogs trained on stock first? If money isn't a limiting factor for doing both, I'd still think it would be easier to train for stockwork first and add other activities after. Has that been your experience (or that of your sports friends)? Just curious.

 

J.

[airbear]

Hi Julie,

 

Weren't your trial dogs trained on stock first? If money isn't a limiting factor for doing both, I'd still think it would be easier to train for stockwork first and add other activities after. Has that been your experience (or that of your sports friends)? Just curious.

 

Yes, my dual-sporter didn't start agility training until after his nursery year. My other fellow sporter collie peeps have done the same - that is, start the dogs in herding, and then when they're solid in that, start the agility training. I'm not saying it can't be done the other way - I'll bet there are people out there who have started herding after agility and the dogs turned out fine.

 

My issue was with the assertion (and I know, Julie, that you didn't write it) that "going back and forth between the two cultures is difficult if not impossible. One cannot serve two masters." My masters co-exist just fine, thanks much!

[Sue R]

My issue was with the assertion (and I know, Julie, that you didn't write it) that "going back and forth between the two cultures is difficult if not impossible. One cannot serve two masters." My masters co-exist just fine, thanks much!

Kristi - I think one difference is that you are not the *average* dog owner. Many people don't excel in even one discipline, much less two. As you pointed out, it takes quite a commitment to make possible a credible showing in both of these.

[airbear]

But I don't think we're talking about the average dog owner. I think this thread addresses those who train and trial in dog sports, and that precludes the average dog owner. As a handler, I would say I am decidedly average in both venues, and I'm not being falsely modest. Where I am above average, I suppose, is more in the fields of "time and money".

 

But back to my point - I do not see this great big chasm between cultures that Mr McCaig sees. This is the perspective of someone who regularly goes back and forth between the two.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

I stand corrected and look forward to seeing Ms. Kristi's dogs at a trial.

 

Donald McCaig

[Sue R]

But I don't think we're talking about the average dog owner. I think this thread addresses those who train and trial in dog sports, and that precludes the average dog owner. As a handler, I would say I am decidedly average in both venues, and I'm not being falsely modest. Where I am above average, I suppose, is more in the fields of "time and money".

Sorry, I was not clear. I was meaning the "average" person who "does herding" and "does agility". I think you put a lot more into both than do many people who might choose to do both, at least in my experience. Most of them are really in the "hobby" category at both and not putting in the effort that you do for both.

[airbear]

My only other trip out east this year is to 80 Acres and Grass Creek. If you're there, we can discuss further!

 

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

I stand corrected and look forward to seeing Ms. Kristi's dogs at a trial.

 

Donald McCaig