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In the, "Another Job for Border Collies," thread it was posited that a working dog should be "treated like a family dog" in off-hours. I was going to reply over there, but thought this might be a topic better all on its own.

 

I'm curious what it means to the various members here to "treat [a dog] like a family dog." And how that differs from treating them like a working dog, or in the words of the poster who originally brought it up, like a "tool."

 

In my experience "family dog" can mean many things to many people, as, probably, can "working dog."

 

Does "family dog" denote a certain level of veterinary care? Type of food? Number of toys? Minutes or hours spent playing games each day? A sleeping location and accommodations? Level of training? Something else?

 

I, of course, have my thoughts, but am curious what others think before I sway the conversation in any given direction.

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I'm curious to see where this goes, too. When someone says "family dog," I think Golden Retriever! :P

But when it comes to border collies, I think care should be taken in a statement like that, because border collies are so quirky and can be different, and for some BCs, living amidst a boisterous, loud, busy family when they come off the hill or pastures might be too much. Yet for other families, especially ranching families, the dog IS integrated into their lives because he's always around, whether they're fixing fence, irrigating the pastures, working on the tractor or whatever.

So, I'd say it would have to depend on the dog and the family and how they all fit together, as to whether a working BC would be most comfortable spending his evenings in the house or in a quiet, cozy kennel out back. And whether the lady of the house could stand having a muddy, smelly, hard-working border collie on her carpet. B)

Just my tuppence, everyone's mileage will vary. :)

~ Gloria

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I was referring to a couple goose dogs I've known of that were owned by golf courses/country clubs, and except when they were out chasing geese off the course with some random employee, they lived very lonely lives in kennels or shut up in a room with little human contact beyond being fed and watered.

 

One of these dogs came into rescue when it was too old to work anymore, and it was really pathetic. Poor physical condition, under-socialized and starved for attention.

 

No dog should have to live like that.

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I was referring to a couple goose dogs I've known of that were owned by golf courses/country clubs, and except when they were out chasing geese off the course with some random employee, they lived very lonely lives in kennels or shut up in a room with little human contact beyond being fed and watered.

 

One of these dogs came into rescue when it was too old to work anymore, and it was really pathetic. Poor physical condition, under-socialized and starved for attention.

 

No dog should have to live like that.

 

Totally understood. But I'm still curious about your (and others') definition of a "family dog" life.

 

ETA: This isn't the first time that differences between family dogs and working dogs' lives have come up here and it's always very vague. This is just the conversation that finally piqued my interested enough to start a thread. :)

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Very interesting question, First I do not agree with not giving them proper socialization and not meeting all the dogs needs. Growing up on a little farm we had 3 saints 1 Cattle dog and my beloved Nova half husky half collie all white lived for 17 years. These dogs all had jobs. the 4 were considered working dogs, Nova she was our pet though had many self appointed jobs around the farm. With this said all the dogs had love and attention all were quite loved and spoiled it was a very rare occasion where one could not find me with all of the dogs at my side off doing something around the farm the yard feilds or the forest. Only Nova lived in the house Honestly I doubt the others would have ever wanted to sleep in the house they got tired of me and needed a break lol But they were healthy and happy and loving dogs everyone

 

I can not imagine not giving any dog the attention that it deserves and a good life. Working or not, maybe I just look at things with rose colored glasses and assume all animals need some sort of attention. From our barn cats to our chickens Even our turkeys were tame lol. Poor Dad could never get me to let him eat the goats rabbits or the ducks haha

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To me, a "family dog" is a dog who lives in the house and participates in family life outside of work (the dog's work). Although I understand the argument about downtime for a working dog, the last thing I want to do with my dog after it has worked hard all day is shut it off somewhere by itself. I want to make sure it has a quiet, comfy place to stretch out and sleep. So, for example, if I used Pip for 12 hours setting sheep at the Bluegrass I wouldn't want him to have to spend the night in a crate in my van; rather I'd like him to come into the hotel with me where he can stretch out and relax and snooze on the bed if he wants to--he worked hard all day and so deserves that, IMO. Then again, I don't have a boisterous and busy household that might send a tired dog over the edge. Though I'd also wonder a bit about the temperament of such a dog and whether it's something I'd want to breed from.

 

That said, I think dogs are fine living in kennels as long as they get regular human contact/interaction beyond what is required to get a job done on the farm or golf course or wherever. If they live in kennels but get out for exercise other than work, time with a human and other dogs, etc., then I think they probably have pretty fulfilled lives, and I'm okay with that. It's not my choice for how I'd keep a dog(s), but I don't think it's a terrible choice either.

 

I've seen dogs who rarely even receive a kind word from their handlers, let alone any real interaction (beyond commands for work), and that makes me sad. At the end of the day, dogs are pack animals who prefer to live within a social structure (with other dogs or humans or animals, whatever it takes). Denying them that comfort seems cruel to me.

 

J.

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My dogs are all family dogs. as they live with the family....but everyone has to work for a living. except retired guys. but pete and I will never get to retire like them! :)

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Julie, I couldn't have said it better.

 

My dogs have always lived in the house with me and have been part of my family. When I had working sheepdogs, they didn't work the kind of hours yours sometimes do, but still they always lived in the house with me as family members.

 

I, too, have seen the dogs who rarely get a kind word and/or are shut up in their kennels or on their chains as soon as the work/training/breeding is done. And when there are a lot of dogs on that particular farm or breeding operation, then I feel especially badly for them, because they're getting even less attention than the one or two farm dogs who sleep in the barn when the workday's done.

 

I believe dogs deserve better than the merely work-or-kennel lives that too many of them live. They're sentient, feeling creatures with emotional needs not so very different from the people who "own" them, and not providing for those needs along with the physical ones, imo, is abuse.

 

And it makes me very sad, as well.

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I haven't read all the responses yet but just wanted to throw my hat in the ring.

 

For me the definition is as clear as it would be in the human world. A "co-worker" might be someone you work really well with, get along with and have a great relationship with... but at the end of the day the relationship stays at the office (or construction yard or what have you). Sure, every now and then you might go out for a beer after work, but your co-worker isn't coming back to your place every night to settle down, hang out with your family and relax for the evening. I think there's a level of comfort and intimacy that comes along with being a family member that just isn't there with a co-worker.

 

ETA: I finally read through all the posts and I think Julie hit the nail on the head. I don't see anything wrong with having a "working" dog so long as it's needs for social interaction (be that with it's handlers, other humans, other dogs or other animals) it fulfilled.

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I wonder what the experience of those who have working dogs letting the dogs choose between kennel life or house-dog life? If a working stockdog has the choice between the kennel and the house, does he opt for the kennel, the house or alternate between the two? Does the length and frequency of the work day make a difference? I can see how a dog who worked long days, every day might just want supper, a straw-bedded kennel and sleep. I can also see how a dog who just worked a couple hours a day or a few days a week might want more interaction and activity.

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My dog and I are partners. We're a team. I don't see him as my co-worker because like Camden's mom said, the co-worker relationship stays on the job site.

 

My dog works, plays, and lives with me.

 

When I hear someone say 'family dog' I don't think of any type of working dog. I picture a nice suburban couple with kids and a fat, spoiled house dog who runs around the backyard and plays fetch a couple times a week.

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I hadn't thought about the coworker vs family member analogy before.

 

I, like Sunday, tend to think more of a suburban or urban pet only type dog when I hear or read "family dog." But it seems like at the same time many here are on the same page as to basic level of accommodation for a dog, working or not. I can certainly be counted among those who agree whole heartedly with Julie's take.

 

Then again, there are more than the average number of owners of working dogs here, too. I wonder if we took the same informal poll in a more pet oriented group if the results would be the same?

 

The pet-ification of working animals has been the bane of too many breeds -- both in dogs and other species -- but I do think there is a good middle ground.

 

I don't remember who asked about the dogs' own choice, but we have working dogs who have a choice in where to spend their off hours and the choice they make is dependent on a few different factors. Weather, the personality of the dog, etc. Across the board however, all of ours choose to sleep inside late night to early morning most nights. The exception being one dog who just loves to be outside; he does choose to sleep outside when the weather is nice.

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Regarding goose dogs, I have known 3 well. Two were successful and very good at their job, one worked for a yacht club and effectively became the dock masters dog, going home with her at night, when she retired so did the dog she had also gone to training with him... Basically the club did it right setting the situation up like the police do with their working dogs.

The other one had a rocky start, working at a golf course/country club he was kenneled on the property and was not very effective as a goose dog, as it seemed no one knew how to help him work. The horse barn manager decided that the situation sucked and started taking home at night, he also became her dog, going to work with her and he finally once he had a "handler" became the goose dog the property had paid large sums of money for.

The third is a rescue dog that came from a college in NYC, who was abused by a custodian as she would not chase geese... she was rescued by the schools accountant who hated what she saw, describing a viscous circle, the more the dog shut down, the nastier her "handler" became... Today she is a lovely fun dog, who would have been living with us if we were not moving to Europe.. She adores my husband.

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To me "pet" and "family dog" are simply words. I have working dogs who also happen to be pets (or vice versa?). I know there's work I could not get done without them, and I wouldn't raise sheep if I didn't have the help of a good dog. They also help improve my income in that we get paid to set sheep at trials (not to mention the sales of sheep I raise).

 

My dogs are more than a tool or a means to an end. They are my work and life partners. That is, they share more with me than just the work we do together. This is one reason why I rarely place a dog and pretty much never would place a retiree. I understand why people do that, but my feeling is that they gave me the best part of their lives doing the work I needed/wanted them to do without question (obviously) and sometimes at risk to themselves and often through pain, discomfort, bad weather, rough conditions, rank livestock, etc., and one thing I feel I owe them is a retirement as my *pet.* They can still work on occasion, but it's really about enjoying retirement and about me being there for them in their waning years and especially at the end. To me, it's a covenant I have with them: You give me the best that you've got to help me with the work I need to do and in turn I will give you the best, happiest life I can, and when the end comes, I will be there to make sure you don't suffer.

 

This is a cultural shift from past generations, and IMO that's a good thing. Although there are still folks who see working dogs (and other working animals) as only a means to an end, or a tool, fortunately many of us do recognize that our work partners are thinking, feeling beings in their own right and that they deserve to have at least some basic social/mental/emotional needs met. For me, it's that recognition that reveals the humanity of the human part of the equation.

 

J.

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To me, I see the family dog as a member of the family. Silly right!? Every member has its job or place, status if you like. So maybe that family has a farm...so some members work it. So maybe the family has a tiny flat...and the members provide comfort, company, education. And everything in between. But always a member of the family.

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As an "outsider" to the Border Collie community, I find some of the comments or general views on "family dogs" somewhat off putting. Maybe I'm simply misunderstanding some of the posts, but to me, there is something special about the Border Collie, and the one I knew well was always first and foremost a part of the family.

 

I think someone said earlier that when they hear "family dog" or "pet" they think of a Golden Retriever. The way that is stated not only has a negative connotation towards the golden breed but also makes the owner(s) of the BCs look and sound like podantic elitists. I am enthralled by Border Collies, I am carefully looking for one, researching rescues and various breeders, and trying to find time to get to a few trials (in other words doing my homework), yet I feel as though if I had the opportunity to personally talk w some (not all) of you I would be looked at as just another guy who "thinks" he wants a Border Collie. I'm not meaning to sound nasty or offend anyone, just not sure I totally agree with the sentiment some of you had towards the "working" definition verse "family" definition of our dogs. Why can't they be both?

 

Also something to think about, how many out there are only introducing their dogs to herding because it is what the Border collies "do" as opposed to working sheep because they count on such for a living? And those that bring their dogs to herding lessons and don't actually have sheep of their own--but treat herding like a sport, are they secretly frowned at by those that are counting on their dogs to help produce a viable income?

 

Just some thoughts.

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I have over 100 ewes on a 300 plus acre farm my border collie that I am trying to train will be my working companion/family dog. I would like to try trialing some day just for the "fun of it".

I have a lot of respect for the people who are training their dogs when they don't have their own farm or sheep to work.

I think that any activity that you and your dog can do together.Whether it is playing fetch or working sheep. It enriches both the dog's and the owners relationship.

I don't think the reference to the golden retriever was meant as a negative

comment. The number of times you see dogs such as golden retrievers in commercials with a smiling family. I feel causes it to be one of dogs which would pop in to your mind when you hear the phrase "family dog".I can't think of hush puppy shoes with out thinking of a Bassett hound or Dr Ballards dog food with out picturing a German Sheppard on the can.

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I'm not meaning to sound nasty or offend anyone, just not sure I totally agree with the sentiment some of you had towards the "working" definition verse "family" definition of our dogs. Why can't they be both?

Without going back and rereading every post, I thought was what the majority of people were saying. Julie P and G. Festerling were quite eloquent on the subject, I thought. Not all family dogs are treated as family, but I think most if not all of the active members on this board, view and care for their dogs as valued members of the household.

 

There is so much I have learned from these boards over the past 8 1/2 years and often from members who lead very different lives with their dogs than I do and a few who spoke very bluntly. We don't always agree, heaven knows, but we all love our dogs and want the best for them. I wish you luck in your search for a Border Collie and hope you find the same education, support and camaraderie I have over the years.

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Also something to think about, how many out there are only introducing their dogs to herding because it is what the Border collies "do" as opposed to working sheep because they count on such for a living? And those that bring their dogs to herding lessons and don't actually have sheep of their own--but treat herding like a sport, are they secretly frowned at by those that are counting on their dogs to help produce a viable income?

 

I had a similar question myself, as someone who does not own sheep or make a living on a farm but wants to pursue herding with my dog. I basically asked that question to the forum and it was an interesting discussion: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=35992

 

 

 

I think someone said earlier that when they hear "family dog" or "pet" they think of a Golden Retriever. The way that is stated not only has a negative connotation towards the golden breed but also makes the owner(s) of the BCs look and sound like podantic elitists.

 

I personally see no negative connotation to "family pet" whatsoever. My dog is my pet. I love him dearly and do my very best to provide a happy, healthy life for him. Even if i did own livestock and he worked on the farm with me he'd still be my pet. Maybe there needs to be a new term altogether: "Working Family Pet". I think therapy, service, herding and police dogs would probably all fall into this new category. :)

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^ I really like that, "working family pet." I think Camden's mom has a good viewpoint and prob better understanding than me of where everyone is coming from.

 

I read the boards every day and not going to lie, to me, there is a "my dog is 'working' border collie," and a "your dog is 'just' a pet," vibe.

 

Definitely going to check the thread Camden's mom posted.

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