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Refusal to return puppy deposit

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That kind of speculation is probably not a good idea, what if it is not the person you think it might be...?

I have to agree also, and so I have removed the speculative post, which formerly was right above the one I quote here.

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Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

In order to legitimize their faux sheepdog trials, AKC "herders" began calling sheepdog trials "ISDS" trials as if there existed a smorgasbord of worthy tests of sheepdog merit. Not so. There's the open sheepdog trial and pretenders.

 

Donald McCaig

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Thanks for the clarification, Donald. Clears up a lot of the confusion.

 

Seems to me that this just confirms that this breeder is, um, a pretender as far as her "bred for herding" dogs go . . .

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Wow. Did anyone else read that this breeder (by the way, not a clue who it is), is a judge (the way I read this not only AKC), has run at Soldier Hollow and the world trial? And, the breeding got the attention of mja, so I assume it was a good breeding? So is it now into bashing the breeding? I would never sign a contract like that. And mja should get her deposit back. One question though, does this breeder have a website, fb page, anywhere where she states the nature of her deposit policy that would have been accessible? Again, even if it was in writing somewhere, she still was negligent if she did not mention it verbally to the buyer. But, the deposit thing aside, it is the breeders right to put any stipulations on any dog she sells. That in itself, plus her need (job?) or desire to teach AKC students, does not mean she does not know what she is doing. Just sayin!

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G. Festerling, you're right. I'd forgotten that part and it could well be that it's a good breeding, despite her fraternization with the enemy in other matters. <_<

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Wow. Did anyone else read that this breeder (by the way, not a clue who it is), is a judge (the way I read this not only AKC), has run at Soldier Hollow and the world trial? And, the breeding got the attention of mja, so I assume it was a good breeding? So is it now into bashing the breeding? I would never sign a contract like that. And mja should get her deposit back. One question though, does this breeder have a website, fb page, anywhere where she states the nature of her deposit policy that would have been accessible? Again, even if it was in writing somewhere, she still was negligent if she did not mention it verbally to the buyer. But, the deposit thing aside, it is the breeders right to put any stipulations on any dog she sells. That in itself, plus her need (job?) or desire to teach AKC students, does not mean she does not know what she is doing. Just sayin!

I am not so sure you have 'a right to put any stipulation on any dog you sell'.

When tried in court I think a lot of these kind of post buy conditions simply don't fly...

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Hello everybody, the saga continues. The breeder has now told me that the reason she had asked for such a high deposit from me is that she considered me an "irresponsible" person and that she normally only charges a $200 deposit ( I am assuming to those that are worthy in her judgement). So the $600 I paid is now being referred to as a $200 deposit and a $400 "overpayment" thereby allowing her to keep a deposit of $200 not exactly stated that way but thats what i am getting from the conversation. However, no where was it stated that the deposit is non-refundable and of course there is still the matter of not disclosing to me the requirement of signing a "breeding contract" prior to my making the deposit.

Than to add to the confusion she offered me to buy a puppy from another breeding without mentioning the dreaded breeding contract even though I made her aware I was fundamentally opposed to a breeding contract. Unfortunately the other litter is from a line of dogs that I had purchased a bitch from and that bitch had Epilespy (another very heartbreaking story for me); When I told her the reason I could not accept a substitute pup from that breeding, she went ballistic on me, accused me of "intimidating" tactics and being a mean person. She made some other negative characteristic remarks aimed at me as well. So its on to small claims court for me. I have to say this experience has been so dishartening that I seriously am thinking of removing dog trialing from my bucket list.

 

I forgot to memtion that the reason she considers me and all UK breeders and sellers irresponsible is because quite some time ago I gave away an intact bitch, very well bred to her previous partner. That partner was quite involved in hobby herding with numerous contacts of people who could provide a pet-hobby herding home. The bitch ended up in a good home but also was bred so in hind sight, I made a mistake. I don't know why it did not occur to me to spay the bitch but it did not and I take full responsibilty for not doing the right thing seeing as there is so much breeding going on and so many dogs do end up in rescue. I don't want to go into the reason I parted with the bitch, except to say it was not a good fit for my situation and I did try many avenues to try and get her the appropriate home but yes, I should have taken the step to have her spayed. So that's the rest of the story in a nutshell.

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WHAT......how irresponsible to sell to someone who you feel is irresponsible in the first place...totally irresponsible...geez...

 

 

and absolutely nothing against you mja...just couldn't help but wonder what the heck the thinking is from that standpoint.

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ok.... let me see if I got this right....

 

  1. You sent in a $600 deposit for a pup. there was no mention of non-refundable part.
  2. THEN breeder mentions a breeding contract that was not part of the deal
  3. you said no and asked for your money back
  4. breeder sent $400 back and kept $200 claiming it was a non-refundable deposit
  5. However this was the first time you were aware of the non-refundable part as it was not mention in prior discusson
  6. Now breeder also added that you made a bad choice from placing a bitch that has nothing to do with this contract, even though you admit you made an error and regret it and using this an excuse to keep the $200.
  7. she offered you another puppy from another litter but that was not part of the original contract that you would be offered a replacement puppy if original puppy was not available

so my question is, how can the breeder change the rules without your agreement? You made a deal, then she changed the contract and you did not agree to the changes therefore yuo are NOT bound to her new agreement, you are only legally bound to the first contract. A agreement, verbal, written is binding and cannot be altered unless BOTH parties agree to it.

 

it's like me going to buy a car for $13,000 and I put a deposit on it. The entore deal was car for $13,000. No mention of non-refunable deposit. Then when I go to get the car, the sellers then rasies the price up and I have to give free rides to the dealer's relatives. I say no and the dealer keeps the deposit since I didnt agree to the new changes. I had agreed to pay $13,000 and that was it. I am not bound by law to take the changes in the contract unless I agree to it as part of the terms. Since I didn't want to give free ride and pay the extra money, I am entitled to my money back. If I agreed to the new terms, then I have to abide by them.

 

Imagine the scenarios if sellers was able to change the term of the contract and make it legally binding with out approval of the buyer!

 

I say, tell this person you want you full amount back, otherwise you will go to court and ask for it and then publish the accounts of what happened....that the seller changes the contract without agreement of the buyer and keeps the deposit without cause.

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I would be tempted to name the breeder in public. What they've done does not sound ethical to me. As others have said, it's changing the agreement after the fact.

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Don't know who this breeder is, but there are always 2 sides to every story.

 

I had a buyer conveniently forget that I require a non refundable deposit and that non working pups are not to be bred. In her case, she never sent a deposit despite my asking for it. She didn't get a pup (for many reasons).

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So far she has not returned any money. She wrote me an em where she went balistic on me, calling me "intimidating" and challenging me to list what trials I had won in the last few years and than went on to brag about trials she had won, dogs she has trained and bascically how great she is and once again referring to the bitch I gave away. She also put down all UK breeders because they do not do 'breeding contracts' despite that she bought a trained dog from wales that she intends to breed as that is the male she offered the substitude pup from. So its a case of 'do as I say, not as I do.'

 

I have come to the conclusion that what must be behind all this anger is that I gave the bitch to the woman she worked with and not her, as well as of course she is probably broke having just moved to a new location and trying to set up a training facility there, that can't be cheap. The sad part is that I had been willing to work something out with her such as taking payments but now that won't work for me.

 

So my last em yesterday, I told her "you have two weeks to return my $600" and if you do not, I will see you in small claims court. I am thinking I will be the only one to show up to court.

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Thank you Diane. I should have remembered when I was building a house several years ago the contractor fooled me into changing the bid price by just asking me "would'nt you like a few more electrical outlets" , innocently I said "sure" than the bill came and it was much over the original bid. I found out that just by verbally agreeing to his question, I had allowed him to raise the price. After that, my only answer to him was "just give me what you put on the bid, nothing more nothing less". Needless to say, he stopped speaking to me by the time the house was finished.

 

In the case of the puppy, it was pretty straight forward, me asking if a pup was still availabe, her saying only one and I needed to let her know right away as someone else was asking (that should have been my first clue). When I said I wanted a pup, she said the deposit was $600 and that's what I sent her. Approximately two weeks before the pups were weaned I em'd how I was looking forward to getting my pup and that's when she informed me I would have to sign a "breeding contract". She would be on the papers as the owner with me until I spayed the bitch. That way I could not sell or breed without her involvement (I am not sure of the extent). Than she said If I did not sign, she would return my deposit. I told her to return my deposit because I am not signing such a contract and that's when the trouble began

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If you end up in court, be sure to include the court costs in the total you're requesting for reimbursement. They may or may not give them to you, but it's worth asking. You shouldn't have to go out of pocket for her refusal to refund.

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Where I live small claims court is only $15-20 depending on the amount of money you are seeking. And obviously there are no attorneys required. Just put your claim in and bring your emails on the day of court. If she doesn't show up it doesn't mean you win either. The court will also need to serve her the notice so you will need a current address that will not come back as returned through the usps. The worst part about small claims is that you have to file where the other person lives (at least here you do) so if you have to travel you can ask for that money in your claim as well.

 

I wish you luck. This kind of situation is nothing by annoying and frustrating.

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I have a pretty good idea who this person is and IMHO, this situation does not surprise me. You do deserve the whole deposit as things changed by the breeder AFTER the fact. Also I imagine naming her would not be a big problem unless your facts are not correct. Telling the truth is not illegal nor slamming a person. IMO a person is responsible for their actions. And that deposit could buy you a well bred dog in other parts of the country.

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Dear Doggers,

 

I cannot guess who this might be. I know no handler who judges AKC trials and has run at Solider Hollow and the World.

 

Donald McCaig

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Dear Doggers,

 

I cannot guess who this might be. I know no handler who judges AKC trials and has run at Solider Hollow and the World.

 

Donald McCaig

If this is the person I think it to be, she was in Tullamore competing when you were there competing. From her website -

 

World Team Member, California State Champion, Arizona State Champion, New Mexico State Champion, Texas State Champion. Under her instruction and guidance, countless dogs and owners have been trained and titled in many different states.

 

She has trialed her dogs extensively. Her own accomplishments have been numerous since she won her first trial in 1990 with "Tonka". Outstanding among her winning dogs have been, "Blaze", "Jeep", "Jill", "Pat", and the newest "Lass."

 

She is licensed to judge USBCHA, AKC, & AHBA herding trials.

 

A Few of Her Accomplishments:

Selected to be a Member of the US TEAM to compete in the World Championship Trial in Ireland, 2005 with Pat and Maddie. Pat, field 3, was High Score American Dog.

Qualified for USBCHA Nationals 1995-2005 placed in the Top 50 5 times, Top 20 2 times.

New Mexico State Champion- 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004.

Arizona State Champion residing since 1998.

Soldier Hollow Reserve Champion Finals 2003, First overall for the week.

Five Time BCSA National Specialty Champion High Score, High In Trial and High Reserve High in Trial 00, 01, 02, (Judged 03), 04, 0.

Texas State Champion 2005.

West Texas Dog of the Year 2005 - "Pat"

Top Open Dog of the Year California - 5 times.

Top Open Team Champion. California - 2 times.

Top Pro-Novice Dog of the Year California - 2 times.

San Diego Top Open Dog, California - 3 times.

Paso Robles Invitational Champion - 3 times.

Spanish Creek Champion - 2 times.

 

She's certainly way outside my league but a few of these "accomplishments" seem to be somewhat overstated - like "licensed to judge USBCHA trials" (there is no such thing); "selected to be a member of the US Team" (slots were, as I understand, available first to those who placed high in the Finals but essentially came down to whomever wanted to go and could afford to do so).

 

Sadly enough, there are several very competent and accomplished handlers that have no problem throwing their hat in with AKC. And also some that are not that competent and accomplished but who may well be standouts in the AKC world and also have thrown their hats in there.

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Thank you Sue for your observation and post.

I curse myself for being so stuck on wanting the breeding going back to a favorite dog I used to have, as it turns out a poor choice for me to make. The breeder is a legend in her own mind and none of her accomplishments speaks to the kind of sheep, the number or experience of her competitors, the type of ground the trials were held on, in other words I would rather be 10th on a difficult field against top competitors than first at Paso fair trial or any fair trial for that matter. The year Paso Fair trial tried to use range ewes, only one dog could move them, and the other dog that could get them going, gripped off, that was the last year they used range ewes.

 

The best I have done was 2cd place on a flat field with perfact sheep while Tom Wilson placed 15th on same field with Roy with extremely difficult group of sheep and in my mind it will always be one of the best runs I have seen. Had I had his group of sheep, I would never even have placed. Or better yet, give me the run so described by Donald with his Fly on range ewes now that's an accomplishment.

 

I had not read of her accomplishments on her web site but now I see there is no mention of 'breeding contracts' or non-refundable deposits and there is a list of litters bred by her by the same agility male owned by the lady to whom I gave my bitch so its the pot calling the kettle black.

 

I so regret that my resources were used to support a business that lacks integrity when there are so much better ways to waste $600.

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right on Sue and pushed one partner to compete in AKC conformation showing, producing several bench champions early on, not telling purchasers that pursuing an AKC bench Ch would mean not papers with ABCA. Seems the sights are more on agility these days

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Um Pam, yes the rule applies to Cattledog Finals, to my knowledge there has not been a AKC judge for Cattledog Finals since the rule was imposed.

 

 

The rule was not put into place until October of 2007

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Dear Sue,

Thanks. I ran at Landiello not Tullamore. I \ note that as an

licensed AKC judge, she is can't judge the USBCHA Finals.

 

Donald

Sorry, Donald, my mistake thinking you were at Tullamore.

 

Thank you for pointing out that at least as an AKC licensed judge, she can't judge USBCHA Finals, which I did not realize.

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