Jump to content
BC Boards
mja

Refusal to return puppy deposit

Recommended Posts

I paid a deposit on a puppy bred for herding and it was my intention to train her for ISDS trialing. Just prior to the litter being weaned, I was told by the breeder that I would have to sign a 'breeding contract' on the puppy and if I refused, she would return my deposit. I am not interested in a breeding contract, told her so and asked her to return my deposit. She has not returned the deposit nor will she respond to any of my efforts to contact her. This person makes her living giving people lessons on working stock as well as judging trials. I wanted to know if anyone else has had a similar experience and other than small claims court or parking myself outside of her place of business, can anyone offer alternative methods to getting my $600 back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This so called breeding contract, is that the one were you are not allowed to breed with the pup in the future?

I have namely also heard of contracts (I think less common in the stockwork world) were the breeder reserves the right to breed with the dog he/she sold to you (kind of the opposite thing).

I would not agree to either of them, and I can understand your irritation not having been told of this condition before making the deposit (could you have known beforehand?).

I have no idea what the legal ramifications are in such a case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This so called breeding contract, is that the one were you are not allowed to breed with the pup in the future?

I have namely also heard of contracts (I think less common in the stockwork world) were the breeder reserves the right to breed with the dog he/she sold to you (kind of the opposite thing).

I would not agree to either of them, and I can understand your irritation not having been told of this condition before making the deposit (could you have known beforehand?).

I have no idea what the legal ramifications are in such a case.

 

I was offered a 6 month old bitch from a well known working breeder on condition that she could breed from her. How she got the idea that I would remotely be interested I don't know - I had contacted her about a rescue dog.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I paid a deposit on a puppy bred for herding and it was my intention to train her for ISDS trialing. Just prior to the litter being weaned, I was told by the breeder that I would have to sign a 'breeding contract' on the puppy and if I refused, she would return my deposit. I am not interested in a breeding contract, told her so and asked her to return my deposit. She has not returned the deposit nor will she respond to any of my efforts to contact her. This person makes her living giving people lessons on working stock as well as judging trials. I wanted to know if anyone else has had a similar experience and other than small claims court or parking myself outside of her place of business, can anyone offer alternative methods to getting my $600 back.

 

 

A $600 deposit? For a puppy? Wow, that is really darned steep. I'd hate to imagine what the full asking price is.

 

I would say to keep after her. Call and email and email and call, until she's tired of hearing from you. And if parking outside her place of business is what it takes, do it. Unless there's something we're missing, this is not ethical. You need to be the squeaky wheel.

 

I'm sorry you have to go through this.

 

~ Gloria

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Gloria.

 

And if she doesn't return your deposit pretty quickly, I'd tell her you're going to take her to small claims court and be prepared to do it. Keep records of everything, any correspondence you've had to date, every phone call and/or e-mail attempt you make to contact her, and notes about any conversations you have, complete with date and time. It might also be a good idea to send a certified letter that she has to sign for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really really don't mind a puppy contract…..but I think it should be disclosed early in the conversation about a pup…especially before a deposit is sent. In fact, since I've been surprised more than once, I think it should be on of a buyers standard questions "Do you have a contract?"….if so, please disclose it. I can't tell you how many times i've been on a puppy list until the end only to have a puppy contract sprung on me at the last minute. I don't really like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know but I'd be tempted to explain that you are going to take the dispute public. FB does amazing things when names get mentioned in a light that is not so good.

Being called on the carpet in private is one thing but being called on the carpet in public is quite another.
I don't mean bashing her, I mean explaining what has happened and asking if others have had this issue.

And yes 600.00 is a lot of money for a deposit. Where are you located?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On my first puppy deposit I had sent out to a breeder I was able to get my deposit back. We had an agreement that I wanted a pup from certain male/female pair the breeder had. He said if she didn't have enough pups I could get my deposit back. When I had been passed up twice being 4th inline I decided to ask for my deposit back. He did not want to give it back. Thankfully we had been in contact through phone and e-mail and the breeder had emailed me the statement about returning the deposit if his bitch didn't have enough pups as I was 4th in line. After I sent him his e-mail stating I could have the money back he did send me the check. I was sad to see the relationship end as I had done my research and had been looking for two years for a BC pup. Anyway, I would suggest to get everything in writing in the future. Maybe she is just slow on the return. Keep asking for it back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. I was unsure about going public but did just notice that this person is running an ad on FB about opening a new facility to work dogs, its on the working dogs for sale site. I feel pretty stupid not even knowing about breeding contracts as I thought I was buying a dog, not a dog minus the uterous. As this person also judges ISDS trials, not sure if contacting the Handlers association would be a path to take.

Thanks again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A breeding contract that stipulates a dog needs to be trained to a certain level before breeding isn't that uncommon. It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me with the right breeder but to each his own...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is to me. For two reasons, firstly I buy the pup, I don´t rent it. So I own the animal, and I decide what to do with it, period.

Secondly it is a kind of "copy-writing the genome" and I am principally against that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of the breeding contracts I've heard of require the dog to be co-owned by the purchaser and the breeder until at least one litter, with a sire of the breeder's choosing, is produced. The original breeder usually gets one or all the puppies, maybe minus one for the co-owner, and the litter is considered to have been produced by that breeder. The price of the original pup purchased is usually reduced and full ownership of the pup goes to the purchaser upon completion of the contract. Essentially it's a way for the breeder to get another litter of puppies without the work involved, and often without the expense (or at least the full expense) of raising them.

 

I suppose there are other types of breeding contracts, but this the type I'm familiar with.

 

ETA: This kind of contract is fairly common in the conformation world. It's usually a puppy that has promise of gaining a championship, and there are often stipulations that the dog must be shown, as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello to everyone; I finally heard from the breeder. She is now saying that the deposit was only $200 so she will return my "overpayment" of $400. I referred her to the em where she told me the deposit was $600 and yes, the contract she wanted me to agree to was for breeding rights. She would have remained a co-owner until such time as I spayed the puppy and she would have owned any litters that I produced. Its coming from the conformation world. She also stated that "all quality breeders require spay-neuter contracts" as if it was common knowledge. I don't exactly live with my head in the sand and had never heard of a stock dog breeder having this requirement or at least it is not sprung on the buyer after paying a deposit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yikes. I agree with the others then. I would never get a pup with that type of contract. And the rest sounds highly unethical. Good thing you kept the emails. I hope you can get the full deposit back

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, wait . . . are you saying you didn't know this was a conformation dog? Was she not clear that it was ACK (or KC, not sure where you live)?

 

This whole thing sounds very, very fishy.

 

Is she giving you your money back? If it were me, I'd be looking into legal options and putting her name out there everywhere I could think of if she doesn't return it -- in full -- pronto.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was an ABCA litter both bitch and male being run in trials and very unfortunately for me going back to a dog I trained and trailed many years ago and I am afraid my sappy heart fell for that genetic link. This breeder is affiliated with AKC as she trains for hobby owners running their dogs in AKC trials as well as judging both AKC and ISDS trials. Her history includes running dogs at Soldier Hollow as well as the World trial. Getting back to the issue at hand, I have in writing calling the required amount of $600 "the deposit" and also in writing "if I don't sign the breeding contract, the deposit will be returned." She is now saying that $200 was the deposit and she is only willing to return $400. She has also already sold the pup that I made the deposit on and get this, she is offering another pup (not for $600 of course) from another breeding, a son of Dewi Tweed without mention of a breeding contract for that pup even after she knows of my opposition to a breeding contract. I think she thought I would be impressed with the Dewi Tweed breeding which I used to be until I imported a pup from him that after almost 2 yrs. of training was diagnosed with epilepsy and had to be put to sleep (not blaming Tweed but not risking going down that road again).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think breeding contracts are more often used for females rather than males. Sometimes breeding rights may be reserved on males, though, and I guess that could be considered a breeding contract, as well.

 

I'm still confused then about this pup being "from the conformation world" if it's and ABCA breeding. ABCA doesn't endorse conformation showing. That's the purview of the AKC (and KC in Great Britain) usurpers.

 

Another point of confusion -- do you mean USBCHA trials? ISDS trials are in the UK, USBCHA in the US. It seems odd that she'd be judging both ACK and ISDS trials . . . (seems a little odd that she'd be judging ACK trials and USBCHA trials, too.)

 

Back to the original subject . . . if you have the information you say you do in e-mails, I don't see where she has a legal leg to stand on to keep any of the money. I'd also think that her not being clear about the breeding contract up front would entitle you to a refund of the deposit, even it it would normally have been a non-refundable refund because of her changing the terms of the agreement upon which the deposit was made in good faith by you.

 

Btw, it's absolutely not true that all quality breeders require spay/neuter contracts.

 

Good luck. I hope you get all your money back. Please let us know. (And I'd love to know who this breeder is so I can steer far clear of her in the future!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think breeding contracts are more often used for females rather than males. Sometimes breeding rights may be reserved on males, though, and I guess that could be considered a breeding contract, as well.

 

I'm still

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Gentlelake, not so sure where the confusion started about being a 'conformation breeding' and my brain is not working well enough to fiqure it out. When saying ISDS trials, I was referring to the course so should have said USBCHA trials, sorry for being unclear. I guess my point was that this was a litter bred for the purpose of working. I am a life time member of ABCA and was involved with the efforts to prevent AKC from bringing the BC into its fold, but pretty clueless with AKC functions. At any rate no need to defend my decision to buy the pup, its pretty clear now it was a bad decision. The statement about "quality breeders" was coming from the breeder not from me. I am just so disgusted with this breeder that I was quoting her stupidity, just a part of my wanting to vent. Will let you know of the final outcome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I referred her to the em where she told me the deposit was $600 and yes, the contract she wanted me to agree to was for breeding rights. She would have remained a co-owner until such time as I spayed the puppy and she would have owned any litters that I produced. Its coming from the conformation world. She also stated that "all quality breeders require spay-neuter contracts" as if it was common knowledge. (emphasis added)

 

I was referring to the sentence you wrote earlier, in bold above. That's why I was confused when you also said it was a litter bred for working.

 

And you were quite clear that the "quality breeders" statement was hers and not yours. ;) And it's still not true; not all quality breeders require such contracts.

 

I'm sure not asking you to defend your decision. It sound like you were misled, and if that's the way it went down I'm totally on your side.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...