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Beginning to Train and Trial


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Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

More on the redirect. The Bluegrass is a fairly straightforward field but, like most big courses, the dog will lose sight of his sheep during the outrun. I'd estimate that one in three dogs need a redirect. Sans redirect they'll cross or more likely come in wrong at the top which is often fatal to the run.

 

At the much mourned Wisconsin 730, the dog sent left had to hit one open gate in a fence line (which a pear shape wouldn't hit) or, sent right it went over three rises - each one pulling the dog in - before dropping to a bottom for spotted sheep. On the right, one could blow out (redirect) the dog on the rises. One steered the dog on the left or simply hoped he'd follow the fence until he hit the open gate.

 

Derek Scrimageour told me about a Scottish hill trial where every dog needed so many redirects to find the sheep, judges took half a point per.

 

Training a young dog's redirect has perils. The Outrun is the dog's motor, the most instinctual part of its work. Most farm dogs learn to do it by experiencing all the things that don't work (buzzing, timidity, running right at them etc) and THEY DO LEARN with no more instruction than the farmer's "Shep GET OUTATHAT!!"

 

Most sheepdogs will - in time - come into a serviceable outrun.

 

Contrarywise, if novices (who often don't know what they're training for) worry their dog's outrun, soft dogs will quit and hard dogs will say "The Hell with you!"

 

If your dog is right, let him go. But, if he's wrong, redirect NOW.

 

At the Bluegrass (550?yd OR) one year I saw Alasdair MAcrae redirect his dog before the dog had gone thirty feet.

 

Donald McCaig

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The Bluegrass used to be (I think) about 450 yards but was shortened just a bit to avoid losing sheep to the setout so it's more like 400 yards now (again, I think). Still a pretty big outrun for the eastern US.

 

I've not noticed as many redirects there as Donald has and not too many crossovers - those seem to happen most to dogs that just aren't ready for such a long outrun and who naturally come in way short (halfway or less oftentimes) and aren't used to not being able to see their sheep on the outrun. As Donald pointed out, the undulations in the field do make it impossible for the dogs to see the sheep at times, and a very wide-running dog has the advantage (on the come-bye side in particular) of being able to see the sheep from most of the outrun.

 

What I see there often, that the judges do not care for but usually don't point with any significance, are dogs that run out very wide from the handler's feet and keep wide all the way up, running not that far off the fence. Pear-shaped outruns don't seem to enter into the equation much at all at that trial.

 

Too many handlers might be able to redirect their dog if they did so early on in the run but those with (again, I think) less experience on the big field tend to not do so in time to make it work.

 

Just my experience in watching as strictly a volunteer and non-trialist.

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I totally agree with both of Julie P's posts. I see a lot from doing setout as well. As for searching for sheep, they don'tnecessarily have to be "found"--in other words, they do not have to be hidden, but if you can ever find a scenario to work in where you have a decent number of sheep (like maybe a hundred or more) spread out to graze, letting the dog figure out how to go out around all of them is a great training situation. The dog can then learn to look and cover to scope a field. It's difficult for the dog to learn to think when there are always 5 or 6 sheep set in one little packet.

 

A

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Thank you all for your advice on the outruns! There's so much to think about from all of your posts! :) To try to sum it up, It sounds to me like the consensus is that the most ideal run very much depends on the situation (whether the ideal run is pear-shaped or otherwise) and that a good outrun is mostly about feeling the sheep as the dog covers the terrain and/or obstacles to get to the top of the sheep. Also, it sounds like one of the most common problems dogs have during an outrun is the dog being too tight at the top, not the shape of the run before getting there.

 

In a practical situation, it seems that so long as the dog is wide enough, the shape of the outrun shouldn't matter (with the exception of the dog potentially getting too tired if it is constantly running way too wide). Regarding the trialing aspect, it would be interesting get different judges' opinions to see if they take points off for the shape of the outrun, or if they only take off points for the dog not being out wide enough. That is, would judges care if the outrun is as efficient as possible, or would they leave time to decide whether an outrun was efficient enough or not? (Although I would guess the answer probably differs from judge to judge?).

 

Although I will continue our story by posting here about Sam's and my second trial that we went to over the weekend, please feel free to continue the outrun discussion if anyone has any more comments on it :).

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Our Second Trial!

Last weekend Sam and I competed in our second trial! I was hoping (of course) that it would go well, but more than any other part of the run, I really hoped that her outrun would be good, since that's what we really struggled with at the first trial and that's what we've been working on really hard for the last month.

 

Saturday evening we were the last to go. The sun had gone down already and it was getting pretty dark. I remembered my stick this time (which I forgot last time, but really need more as a security blanket for myself than for signaling to Sam.) The trial was at the same location as the last one, and I sent her "Come Bye" for both runs at the previous trial. I set her up for an "Away" outrun. I sent her. Her outrun was beautiful! (Especially to my novice eyes!) She started by running out a ways, and widened enough as she got nearer to the sheep that they didn't move until she was at the top! I was so excited and so proud of Sammie - she did it! Then, before I realized it, one sheep was running for the exhaust pen. The other sheep were running straight for me, but I hadn't moved from the post (the judge said the line was from the lift to the pen, not the lift to the post). I told Sam to run around to get the separated sheep. She gathered them back together, but was moving too fast, too close into the sheep, and the sheep were too excited. All of the sudden I realized that I was giving Sam the opposite commands (Away instead of Come Bye, and vice versa). She was doing what I meant and not what I said, but half the run was done and I had commanded her backwards the whole time. How much damage was I doing for the future? Should I switch back to the correct commands - would she get it or become confused. The sheep were approaching the pen, and I needed to get the gate open. I lied Sam down while I turned around to open the gate - but the gate got stuck! I started opening it incorrectly, it jammed, and I couldn't open it until the sheep had passed by the pen. I got Sam up and began to use the correct commands, but we had missed our opportunity. The sheep were too excited and they just ran circles around the pen. I lied Sam down to let the sheep relax for a moment, but every time she got near them they would bolt. The time ran out - the whole event passed by so quickly!

 

I had two feelings leaving the field - I was so excited that Sam did a real outrun, and at the same time was feeling quite silly for completely losing my wits and letting the rest of the run lose control! The judge was very kind and told me to just calm Sam down at the end of the outrun/the lift and keep her farther back from the sheep. I was excited for the next morning, and was sure I would do better (and that would hopefully help Sam do better too).

 

I had learned that no matter how excited you are about something going well, don't think about it until the run is over - keep thinking about the next step, or it might just get crazy!

 

The next morning, Sam did another great outrun. I tried to calm her down at the top, but she was very excited and did a full circle around the sheep. By the time the sheep were about a third of the way down the fetch, I got Sam to lie down and listen. She kept farther off the sheep, and they went straight into the pen to finish the best run we've ever done together :D.

 

We still have lots to work on, of course. Until our next trial (at the same place in two weeks) we will be working mostly on getting Sam to lie down as soon as she turns in toward the sheep from her outrun, and then calmly approaching the sheep. Of course, I'll also be doing my best to make sure her outrun continues to improve (hopefully!).

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Dear Ms. Miller,

 

Good on you!

 

I don't think many judges are looking for a "pear-shaped outrun". Too many fields can't accommodate them. Judges differ how much they deduct for faults ("He's easy on the shed" "He's hitting hard on the lift" etc) but those differences needn't concern you until you're running in open.

 

In novice/novice, judges are hoping the dog gets behind his sheep, brings them in an orderly fashion and puts them in the pen on the first attempt.

 

As a rule: judges severely penalize straight-up-the-middle OR's, even if the dog kicks out and comes behind at the last minte (aka: the fishhook OR). They penalize dogs that come up short - always if the sheep are lifted off line, occasionally if the dog lifts straight. Overrunning is relatively rare and is almost always because the dog simply failed to find the sheep until he's past them. At one time some open dogs were trained to run to 1 oclock (to be stopped at 12) but that practice is less common than it was.

 

Because most trial fields are fenced, it is fairly hard to decide whether an OR is wide or too wide and unless the dog goes to the fence and clings to it to the top, most judges won't deduct for it.

 

In my experience, however, young dogs that run too wide (out of contact) are a more serious, difficult, if less common problem than young dogs who run too tight. Even though it probably won't cost you much on small novice trial fields.

 

Donald McCaig

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FWIW, I have had one judge ding my wide running dog for being too wide at the bottom. He basically knocked off a point (or two, I don't remember) because she kicked out slightly backward from my feet when I sent her.

 

But generally as Donald noted, probably most judges figure time will get the excessively wide running dog.

 

J.

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Like Julie, I've seen some judges ding a point or so for a dog that kicks out too wide at the beginning of the outrun, especially if the dog runs so wide that he/she runs behind the imaginary line that runs through the handlers post/feet. Most judges don't seem to take much off unless the dog crosses over (19 points), needs redirection (about 5 points each time, maybe), or stops short or overruns (points depending on severity of being truly off-balance rather than stopping where the true balance is). A real keyhole outrun would probably be dinged pretty strongly.

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Dear Sue,

Yes there are -5 redirects but on a big course, I wouldn't ding a perfect flying redirect more than a point or two and a stop and a perfect stop/redirect 3.

 

The successful redirect is almost always fewer points off than too tight at the top plus bad lift.

 

Donald McCaig

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Dear Sue,

Yes there are -5 redirects but on a big course, I wouldn't ding a perfect flying redirect more than a point or two and a stop and a perfect stop/redirect 3.

 

The successful redirect is almost always fewer points off than too tight at the top plus bad lift.

 

Donald McCaig

Right! I was thinking more of the redirects you can see at the BG where the dog is obviously on a track to cross over, has to be stopped and redirected, sometimes more than once.
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  • 5 months later...

Hi Ellie44 - I'm glad you enjoyed the thread. Everyone who I have come into contact with so far in this herding journey has been so helpful and kind. The folks here on the boards as well as those I've met in person have been very generous with advice and encouragement (as you can see with the many replies to my questions in here)!

 

I haven't updated this in forever (I've always been pretty terrible at keeping up with updating social media) but things are going great for me and Sam. We actually just completed our final Novice trial last weekend, and will be moving up to the Ranch class as soon as the trials start again in February! Although it can be very challenging at times, herding has been fun and extremely rewarding. We're only 9 months into all of this, but we're slowly and steadily progressing, which is all I can ask for!

 

Best of luck to you! I hope you get addicted like the rest of us :D.

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