Male BC proving very hard work

[Journey]

Thanks for the quick answers, firstly I've had and trained a few dogs and never had an issue like this, if indeed your right and this dog is motivated by destroying things in secret then I'll be motivated to move him along to another home.

 

If you think this already I'd suggest you send him back to the breeder asap. He's just a pup an you don't like him. Its not failure to admit it, you may love him but from what/how you've written about him the best solution may just be to return him.

[Urban Borders]

Hmm. It really, really might be a good idea to take him to the vet. Large volumes/frequent defecation could be a sign of a medical problem, and he may be pokey because he doesn't feel good. Dogs don't complain if they don't feel well, but it can affect their behavior.

 

Definitely one-on-one time. If your female is very enthusiastic about play, she may inhibit him. And he may be a very, very soft dog. There are dogs that can't be corrected at all, or they will shut down completely. Read this: http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/ If you don't want to live with a dog that is overwhelmed by any correction, or by living with your female, or by living with an active family, then...the kindest thing may to be rehome him to someone who doesn't mind such a soft dog. That's not a wrong decision, if it makes the dog happier.

 

As for his destruction, it may be due to several different causes: it may be boredom, or lack of stimulation. He might benefit from bones or food toys or toys to destroy, although he might have to separated from your female when given these, if he is a guarder. It may be a reaction to a passing stimulus: a feral cat, the garbage truck, a neighbor's dog. It may be anxiety at the situation he finds himself in: does it happen when you are not present, or when he is confined in some way? It may (although this is less likely) not be him: if you have never seen it happen, it could be your female, who is stressed by the presence of the younger dog.

[tyrelsamson]

Sorry to hear about Jin's destructive behaviour!

Have you crate trained the little guy? If not I reccomend doing it ASAP! We had a fairly destructive blue heeler and crate training worked wonders for his attitude. Just remember to never use the crate as a form of punishment. My pup loves her little den and I still toss treats inside daily for her to find.

It sounds like he's having a hard time bonding with you. Try spending time with just Jin, take him to the park just you and him. See how he acts and behaves then, maybe try and find something that makes him tick. Every pup is different, some fetch and some play keep away. Some pups don't need as much human interaction as others.

As for the destructive aspect, consistent supervision is key. Find the right toy that really stimulates him (try a kong stuffed with peanut butter and a liver treat.) Enrol in some obedience/puppy classes. For the chewing, we use a bitter apple spray and put it on the specific items he was going after. The smell and taste turned him right off.

Unfortunately putting him on a leash outside and giving up is going to worsen the situation. put in the extra time to bond with him and you should see improvements.

Good luck with Jin! I hope all works out for the best

[Tess's Girl]

When I first got Tess I felt like she really didn't want to do anything. She wasn't food motivated, and she wasn't toy motivated. The only thing she really liked was playing with other dogs. I had to build drive for toys and food. I would always take a toy to the dog park with me and she began to associate the toy with good things. Now she loves to play fetch. I also built drive for food by finding food that she really really loved (which at first was only cheese) and pairing it with food that she was eh about. She has one playmate that she really loves named Opal, Opal is very food motivated and over time Tess decided that if Opal was getting food then she should be too. Now she really likes lots of different types of treats.

 

I would take Jin out without the female (what is her name, by the way? Did I miss it somewhere?). Take the ball and a couple of different toys and let him decide what he wants to do. Whatever he does, praise him for it. If he sniffs the ball, treat him, if he picks up a tug, treat him. If he shows interest in doing anything let him know that it's a very good thing. See what he does without the female and then gauge what it is he likes to do the best.

 

What are Jin's and the females typical interactions like?

 

Have you thought about an agility class? Just a basic one that way your dog will be physically and mentally stimulated and it will help build the bond between you and him. When I first got Tess I enrolled her in a basic obedience class. She didn't learn anything that I wasn't able to teach her myself, but the class provided a new environment with socialization and bonding experience.

 

Is it possible that your yard may have voles or some other type of rodent in it? That can cause dogs to dig like crazy. If not have you thought about getting a sandbox and filling it with dirt? If he really likes to dig this will provide a place for him to do so and that won't tear up your yard. You can also bury toys and food and make it an extra fun thing to do.

 

I understand wanting to keep him confined in the yard so he doesn't destroy it, but have you thought about a dog run instead of a chain? They can be fairly inexpensive. Keeping him on a chain, even if it's just for the night can lead to some bad behavioral issues over time, also it's really bad for his neck.

[supershaven]

Update; some useful advice thanks and still some literature based focus, anyways..both dogs interact well and often cuddle and kiss, it is a harmonious relationship between them 99% of the time, they have lots of room to run around in, no confinement, they get bones, toys until they're ripped apart then more toys trying to find a good balance, to be fair a lot of this we have tried and do train with treats which he does respond well to when he's in the mood! he is a loved dog who is just going through a testing period and we just are trying to work out what he needs.

 

For those still fixated on the innocent wording used, maybe advising on dogs isn't your thing, maybe a literary major Could be more your thing. English is my first language and I am well educated, I was speaking loosely in a non provocative way and I can tell most people get what I am meaning due to their ultra helpful responses (THANK YOU!) there are a few that still don't, for those people who need it black and white and are acting as if everyone is evil until proven otherwise - this is for you: neither of the dogs are or have ever been in any physical or emotional danger, they are well cared for and loved. No anger is ever present around them by us as owners, our children or visitors, we refer to them as part of the family, is this clear enough? If those few still insist on chasing a goose that doesn't exist, please refrain from doing it here, go chew on a kong.

[GentleLake]

With all due respect, you're really not likely to engender much cooperation if you insist on using such harsh language and antagonistic attitude yourself.

[Maralynn]

Wow, dude. Coming and insulting people sure won't get you very far. You wanted free advice. Take what you like and leave what isn't applicable to you. Trust me, this is all pretty tame compared to some forums. If this isn't you style then perhaps paying a local expert will get you better results.

[supershaven]

Sorry gentle but my earlier attempts hadn't found their targets, this is no place for trolling even if they are not intending it to be trolling.

[supershaven]

Exactly, well stated maralynn, people shouldn't come here and insult people if they don't fully understand the question, If I insulted you first I would expect you to reaffirm yourself also. Please for Christs sake, let's focus on the dogs!

[geonni banner]

I note that Julie and Shetlander have bailed on this thread. Also that most of the other "big guns" are remaining silent. I think I know why. Think I'll go find a Kong to chew until the fellow with the unlucky puppy goes back under his bridge.

[Tea]

pups chew- get some thing that is ok to chew on

 

put him in a crate when you can't watch him, or in his safe yard.

 

go to a pro for some help

 

work with him alone a few minutes at a time a couple times a day. keep it positive

 

Have a safe place for him to play by himself or with his buddy if they get along.

 

Let him grow up on his own time, they are all different.

 

no need to chain him up.

 

 

Just my advice- people helped me when I wondered what to do- so I am passing information along that I received from mentors and friends.

 

 

I use my dogs for hours a day in my work to make my living and have raised a few pups.

[alligande]

Ok I it is late and I have had a couple of glasses of wine with friends... And came to check out the boards.., and just read through this thread... Mr Supershaven over the years I have learned an amazing amount from some very knowledgable people on these boards, I have also had some fun conversations... But to come here and be rude to people trying to provide honest help is not going to get you the advice you want... Not one of the people who have responded are trolls, they are all fellow border collie owners who have taken the time to respond to your request for help. By your own admission you came here looking for free help rather than pay a behaviorist... So read politely, absorb, perhaps become a member of the community before you start slamming people. recently we have had a lot of new members join the board looking for advice and I think many have been helped and the whole family is happier... Maybe read through some existing threads and get an idea of the people who ate offering you advice... Let me repeat not one is a troll.

[dsmbc]

I have three very, very different BCs. My oldest, very little bothers him, but he his very high energy and busy. My female, I didn't get until she was older, seemed shut down and fearful. she would snap at other dogs, seeming dominant, but it was fear. she wasn't interested in chasing balls or toys and still isn't. I started working with her to teach her tricks, one on one and that brought her out of her shell, engaged her brain and built our relationship. she loves to work stock and to learn new tricks, when not working. she is happy to work with me, but also happy to just relax, when not. I like that in a dog.

 

My youngest, now 2 yrs, is unbelievably brilliant and talented, but he also could be very destructive and pushy with the other two dogs I did a lot of training on impulse control and also lots to lay a solid foundation and engage his brain - and still do. I crated him whenever I was not home and even if I was but couldn't keep an eye on him, but made sure I trained, even if for only 5 mins, everyday. That helped a lot.

 

I also paid extra attention to what my dogs like. None of my three like the same things. Pete is all about balls, Jill loves trick training and Ben, just likes to hang out with me if he is not working the sheep. my three don't even like the same food!

 

Anyway, this is a long way of saying just try out different things and see what works, give him one on one time, engage his brain and be very clear and consistent. try not to be frustrated and try to be patient. You'll both figure each other out before long.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I guess I am late to this dance. I think the pup is maybe feeling your negative vibes and as a result is acting submissive around you.....they can feel anger, being unwanted and bad vibes. Add to the fact your other dog is well behaved and then you compare...it's like comparing me and my bro....I am outgoing, full of fire and he is quiet and relaxed. People look at us and ask if we are really related.

 

My take is spend one on one time with him and push bad the bad vibes and think positive. Take him for a walk and keep him a little hungry. Toss treat on the ground for him to eat etc so then you are the source of goodness. Sit down and have him crawl in your lap. Give a him a puzzle ball with treats in it so his mind has to work to get them out.

 

what motivates him.....use that to your advantage. Take him to places so other people can fuss over him so he learns people are fun. Find out what his passion is....does he like to dig and use his nose....do search work with him.

 

Also being lazy could be ....maybe giardia, worms or overweight? Maybe feeling like he is not wanted by the vibes.

 

I can't say why he is that way unless I could see the behavior but get him to want to be with you ....use a happy voice, get him interested in doing something with you.

 

I have a yearling male now, that at 6 months drove me batshit crazy.....he decided he didn't have to listen, barked and dig holes in the dog pasture, ran off when I recalled him and was a pain in the ass....so I took some obedience lessons with him and now he smartened up.....I went to a good friend for advice who trains that and agility and ranks top.....now he is a sweet dog. I used to say he was a dumb as a box of rocks but now he is one of the smartest dogs I have owned. I had to look at him from a different angle with another trainer.

 

take time with your pup and let him think he is the center of the universe.....not all dogs are alike....what is his passion? Uses his nose,??....hide treats. Watches a lot?? ....then stuff a puzzle ball with treats. Give him a bone when you are not there. Put him in a crate for time out. make him realize you are the God of Goodness and Happiness.

 

When Tess had her first litter, I started with the command . "puppy, puppy" in a happy voice and the pups would come running at full speed and jump over me and I would love them and make a huge fuss...one pup was Roo.....now many years later at a huge trial on cattle, he battled the tough cattle to tie for second place (he was doing some serious grip and turns as the cattle would run over the dogs).....after the run, I called him "puppy, puppy," and he ran up to me bouncing, barking, tail wagging up in the air like a husky and grabbed my legs to a head rub.....the crowd burst out laughing as three minute before he was gripping a steer that was trying to run him over.....that relationship started as a pup and still is there to this day.

 

Jin will never be like your female......like I never will be like my bro. I learn by visual/seeing and he learns by reading......I bet your pup is the same way.

[supershaven]

Awesome advice deltabluez , can't thank you enough. Maybe you're right about his stomach, good point

[BCjetta]

Will he run and be active if he's playing with your female? The laziness you describe makes me wonder if he could be in pain. Some dogs can get growing pains (panosteitis) or have bad hips etc.

 

I had some issues with my youngest dog as well. My old female was perfect...easy to train, smart, really in tune with me, never did anything wrong etc. I got my new pup and I think a big part of the problem was me comparing her to my old female....but at the same time she did not have the drive or interest to work with me, to chase toys and bring them back, etc. Even training was hard because I could not find anything that would motivate her. One thing she always did like was tug so at least I had that, and playing with her friend who was a similar age. I had to do a lot of work to get her to fetch anything. I had to put the other 2 dogs inside to do any type of playing with her otherwise they would just push her out of the way. I remember being extremely disappointed and frustrated that she would not bring a toy back to me (she'd just chase it and then lay down with it on her own), and that she didn't really seem that bonded or interested in interacting. I kept at it and by the time she was about 9-10 months she would bring the ball back at least half way. When she hit about 2 she became a lot more driven to work with me and now will play fetch until she's tired and flops down. She also has become way more responsive to me and bonded to me but it did take a long long time. I am now glad I have her but for the first year I resented her because she wasn't as good as my other dog and I found it hard to see the potential in her.

 

My middle aged dog is a male (actually hubby's dog). He started to mature around 2.5-3. Still could not trust him loose where he could potentially get into things. At 5 I could hold his attention on me as opposed to whatever things there were in his environment. If you don't have something he wants, he will most likely ignore you...or very very slowly do what you asked.

[simba]

It's a tough call. I have a dog who's somewhat similar- no toy drive, not much interest in food, no real desire to learn anything. She loves her walks so we go on those, and being scritched, and I try to appreciate her for her attitude and her personality rather than comparing her to the other dogs.

 

Having said that I'm not at all sure we wouldn't have been both better off if she'd been rehomed early with someone who suited that kind of dog. I love her dearly, but there's always that mismatch, and we're not as well bonded because of it. I do less with her simply because there are fewer opportunities to do things.

 

So I'd agree with both those who say 'build the relationship' and those who say 'consider rehoming'. Don't take it as a personal thing- it's natural in some respects to resent a dog for not being what you want it to be. Have a think about whether rehoming would be suitable. It's nothing about being a bad owner or not loving the dog or something, it's just that no-one will be suited to every kind of dog.

 

The reason people are focusing on your language is just that on forums like this, language is all you have. There's no 'tone', facial expressions etc.. People tend to 'sound' angrier than they intend, on both sides. If someone doesn't fully understand what you meant, if the first post sounds more frustrated than you intended, say that, move on, and ignore it.

 

I've been on the receiving end of exactly this kind of response, on this board, and my first instinct was to say 'Eff you all, I'm right, go soak your heads'. But I got some really useful advice out of it that actually resolved the problem, and I tried to respond politely to the people who annoyed me most (who, in my case, were justified.)

 

It's rather 'polite' than otherwise for people to take the time to pick out from your posts what contributed to the impression they got ("fixating on the innocent wording used"), so that you understand what gave them that impression. It's not intended personally. If you can't respond to it without sounding annoyed, which is fair enough, then just ignore it. People will deal more kindly with you for it, and will thus be less annoying.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Mr. Gareth,

Ethel Conrad once advised me, "If you don't like that dog, give it to someone who will."

 

Donald McCaig

[MIRK]

This is just a general comment on the use of "it" to define our canine partners.

Here in the cradle of the breed, the British Isles, that's how the farming community tend to refer to their dogs.

Doesn't mean they respect or care for their animals any less than people that use he/she/applicable name.

The dogs don't seem to mind either...

[Tommy Coyote]

I agree with Donald. If you don't like the dog then rehome it. That is not a good situation for either the dog or the owner. That just happens sometimes. It just doesn't sound like this puppy is a good fit for you or him. And dogs can really pick up on your emotions so if you are feeling rage he is going to pick up on that.

 

I would be worried about a puppy that was not very active. I have a very laid back male puppy but he is still very active when he is outside playing.

 

I would be worried about some kind of health problem. One of my dogs was diagnosed with auto immune disease when she was just 1. The one thing I noticed was that she was just not as active as she should be. Turned out it was because she was getting sick.

[G. Festerling]

I think some of the responses are way to emotional. Although yes, I also did not get the warm and fuzzys from the very first post, I think he has tried his very best to overcome the frustration that showed in it and sure seems to come across as sincere in taking the great advice offered, to heart.

It may not be a bad idea for everyone to read the posts before just hitting reply to the first one. Just sayin....

[Gloria Atwater]

What Tea said. Also what Diane (Deltablues) said.

Semantics aside, I see your frustration. I agree that giving him a correct outlet for his destructive play may be a help. If he's in a fenced area, limit the amount of incorrect things he can get into and make sure he has appropriate things to chew and throw around. Puppies WILL be puppies after all. If he likes to dig, give him a safe digging area and just go fill the holes once in a while. My girl was a great digger when young but she's coming 5 and has long since out grown it.

And if he's not responding to you, I'd say give him more time alone with you. To start, don't ask much of him, just take him with you, be a companion to him, spend time just talking to him or petting him and letting him have relaxed, comfortable time with you. Bring treats to encourage his recall. If he's not attaching himself to you, it may be because he's partnered up with your female and you're just not interesting enough. Time with the two of you alone together should help shift that focus. And time in general as he matures will do the same.

 

How old is he? And is he more playful and active with your female, or is he "dull" around her, too?

I think there was mention of pooping a lot? If there is something unusual about his bowel movements, do have that looked into as stomach upset could contribute towards seeming lethargy.

If you find that he really doesn't suit you, there is honestly no shame in matching him with another, more suitable household. Sometimes a dog may not be a proper fit and if you can't get comfortable with how different he is, it's not fair to either of you to prolong the relationship.

Good luck,

Gloria

pups chew- get some thing that is ok to chew on

 

put him in a crate when you can't watch him, or in his safe yard.

 

go to a pro for some help

 

work with him alone a few minutes at a time a couple times a day. keep it positive

 

Have a safe place for him to play by himself or with his buddy if they get along.

 

Let him grow up on his own time, they are all different.

 

no need to chain him up.

 

 

Just my advice- people helped me when I wondered what to do- so I am passing information along that I received from mentors and friends.

 

 

I use my dogs for hours a day in my work to make my living and have raised a few pups.

[Mom of Mya]

First I have to say I have gotten some awesome advice on this board. Even though we feel Mya is a mix of bc and something else, everyone has been very kind and helpful, and their advice has helped me immensely, because she does not respond like any other breed we have ever had.

 

It is hard with just reading words sometimes to know where a person is coming from or exactly what the situation is. I do feel that maybe Jin is feeling your frustration even if you don't realize it and is probably reacting upon that to release his frustration, thus the shredding. If it is not a medical condition, I agree maybe a trainer with some classes could help you bond more with your pup and give you some insight as to what they see is going on between the two of you and ways to correct it and it might only take just a few classes.

 

Mya is 7 months old and does not respond well at all to any kind of using the word "No" or dominance over her. She has in fact when my husband used it before (because that does work with other breeds of dogs we have had) waited until he turned his back, went and got his new hunting magazine he just got off of his chair and had a hey day so to speak shredding it to all kinds of pieces all over the floor. I got some good advice about getting a deer antler and letting her chew on that which has worked wonders with the chewing and shredding. She has had one now for about a month to 6 weeks and barely made a dent in it. And instead of using the no or showing dominance, we now just use a hmmppff sound like we are disgusted and turn away from her for a minute or two. Then we try to let her do something again and she is much more likely to try to please us by doing it and when she does we praise her a great deal and give her treats. She is much more willing to try to do what we want that way rather than scolding or trying something else. Mya also likes her walks but she loves brain games. We have treat balls we hide and she has to find them. She really does not like fetch at all but she loves if you get a toy and play keep away from her with it and then we let her have and we chase her a bit.

 

I do feel just from what I have read that there is probably some kind of feeling going on between the pup and you that is not good and needs to be somehow resolved. But like I said I am new bc owner myself and learning the ropes too. I hope possibly any of this may have helped.

[Simple92]

Some good advice here already. I was going to say take him out on his own or maybe you just need to get him excited try doing recall and running away from him on the field to get him moving. Another possibility take him out on a run to tire him out (if you don't mind jogging lol).

 

I don't suppose we can see a picture too please, nothing like a Collie!

[Howling Farmer]

I actually know the woman in the video that Jen mentioned, with the deaf Akita (who, before we moved, was one of my reactive BC's best friends.) She also uses "getting to play in the stream" and "getting to greet your favorite people" as rewards to get her dog interested in working. Sometimes you have to be really creative to find what actually is a reinforcer!

 

Leslie