Quirky Registered/Full Names...AKC PAL Registration?

[Gloria Atwater]

Oh, there I go again! Trying to say something that someone has already said better.

Thanks, Eileen! Exceedingly well said.

~ Gloria

Getting back to the original question, I'm going to give an answer that may seem sharp. I don't mean it to be rude, and it's not aimed at any individual, but it reflects my feelings about this subject, and what's the point of posting something that doesn't?

The International Sheep Dog Society (ISDS) "permits the use of only one, simple working name for a registered dog" plus a kennel prefix. The ABCA has a limit of 14 characters (including spaces, and including kennel prefix, if any) for the names of dogs it registers.

This reflects the border collie tradition that a dog's name should be one that you can conveniently use to communicate with the dog when he is working. It also reflects the idea that the purpose of a dog's name is to address the dog, or to speak of the dog in a way that will effectively designate him. Its purpose is not to impress people with your cleverness, or with his highborn status. Traditionally, your dog was like your co-worker or your friend. My parents named me Eileen; they didn't name me "I Lean Toward the Arc of Justice," call name "Eileen." A similar simple name betokens respect for the dog himself, IMO, and not for impressing others.

I don't know of any working border collie people who have given their dogs names like Imperial Glory's Making Eyes At Ewe, call name Flirt, or Silverwood's Mighty Hunter of the Irish Skies, call name O'Ryan. Those types of names grow out of kennel club culture. (The AKC, if I recall correctly, permits dog names to be 36 characters long, and up to 50 characters long if you pay more for the privilege.) And I can't imagine working border collie people choosing to adopt this custom -- when you do, you are buying into a cultural tradition associated with show dogs and not working dogs. Adopting that naming system is aping "the Fancy." Outside "the Fancy," dogs of all kinds -- pet dogs, hunting dogs, sled dogs, working border collies -- are given a name to use for reference and for direct address. There's plenty of room for originality in traditional, short, functional names. It's only in the Fancy that the dual-name system is used -- one long and fancy name, and a different "call" name supposedly cleverly derived from the long fancy one. Long fancy names are not what our dogs are about. So while I'm okay with the "live and let live," "name him what you want" stuff, I -- and I think many others -- would draw certain conclusions about you if you gave your border collie a fancy name as or in addition to his real name. I recognize that many people would be quite comfortable and happy to have such conclusions drawn about them. It's just something that might be helpful for a newbie to know at the dog-naming stage.

 

[Sue R]

Is the KC really any different philosophically (and therefore in practice) than the AKC?

 

There are some top ISDS dogs that are dual-registered with the KC for the simple reason that a number of countries in Europe are under the aegis of the FCI, which (if I remember correctly) does not accept ISDS registration alone for sheepdogs to compete in the trials that fall under its venue. And, in those countries, FCI is the only body recognized to conduct sheepdog trials. I may be a bit fuzzy on this but I think I have the general idea right. In order for ISDS dogs and ISDS-parented pups to be registered in those countries, the animals must also be FCI registered, which means KC registered. I think it's a shame that the bastion of quality working sheepdogs is not recognized but there are some strange (to some of us) and/or restricting rules in some countries.

 

PS - It has been quite controversial but in some of those countries, FCI has set "tests" for breeding status that includes some "tests" that have nothing to do with working ability and would disqualify some excellent dogs from being bred for no good reason.

[GentleLake]

But here we do use the full name rather than the number. Whilst our dogs have numbers we only use those on entry forms.

 

Imagine making presentations at a show with a couple of thousand dogs and the number of Sams, Bens, Maxs, Megs etc there would be. It's a lot easier to hear a longer name over the PA / Radio and keep track of who has won or been placed with which dog. Too many classes going on in too many rings to attend each presentation personally.

 

I think it's fairly obvious that you're talking about a very different venue that includes many types (i.e. breeds) of dog than the sheepdog milieu, so I don't thinks it's an applicable corollary. Y'know, comparing apples and oranges. We're talking about the traditions surrounding one particular breed, not lots of breeds competing in an event that's tangential to their breed history and purpose.

 

Generally it would be very wrong to draw conclusions about a dog or its owner based on its name. How about the ISDS working dog and trial winner whose owner has an ISDS affix and has registered him with that followed by a short name but also has a similar but not identical KC affix and longer KC registered name for agility? Same dog, same working ability, same owner/breeder. Which box do they belong in?

 

The non-traditional box.

[cwb3]

From now on I will name my dogs after social media platforms:

 

"Twitter. . .come!"

"Myspace. . .away!"

 

[Oko]

Heck with g-kids, kids, hubs and multiple dogs sometimes I call them all the same thing. "hey you" or "knock it off"

 

Oh goodness, yes. "Wes-Jen-Fei-WHOEVER YOU ARE, come here!"

[dogrsqr]

Actually I've always made up registered names for my rescued dogs, not because I'm part of the KC crowd or want to be, it's more about poking fun at them and having some fun with our dog's history.

 

Ginger the BC had lived with elderly cloistered nuns and they lived at the Home of the Good Shepherd. She was given up because she was biting the nuns (a BC without any rules; getting payback for all those Catholic school kids). Therefore Ginger was "The Good Shepherd's Bad Habit".

 

Kip the BC was a dog we fostered only to find out he had OCD (NOT obsessive compulsive disorder). We paid for his surgury and he became "Gina's Thousand Dollar Rescue".

 

Maggie the mixed breed was my very opinionated agility dog. She became Miss Maggie May (or may not)

 

Shep the Aussie mix, a foster who came back to us twice before we decided to keep him, and originally came from the Ramsey County Humane Society became "Ramsey's Boomerang Aussie".

Yeah I'm never going to have a real herding dog, but that doesn't mean I agree with the KC mentality either. Some of us are just out here doing our own thing and having fun doing it. Maybe that's the conclusion you can draw by looking at my dogs "registered" names.

 

Gina and Abbey ..... Noah's New Begining

(Came from Friends of Noah rescue at a time when we were losing all of our old dogs).

and Trek ... High Plains Drifter (stray wandering in North Dakota)

[Root Beer]

Actually I've always made up registered names for my rescued dogs, not because I'm part of the KC crowd or want to be, it's more about poking fun at them and having some fun with our dog's history.

 

Seriously!! There are certainly those among the purity purists of the AKC who would not only disapprove, but be personally insulted by the fact I have a highfalutin' name for my former street dog of unknown origin and that I have the audacity to have that name printed on some of her certificates as if she were a "real purebred" worthy of having a "registered" name. ('Cause ya' know - all dogs that land in shelters magically morph into "mixes", no matter what their parentage may or may not have been.)

 

 

Yeah I'm never going to have a real herding dog, but that doesn't mean I agree with the KC mentality either. Some of us are just out here doing our own thing and having fun doing it. Maybe that's the conclusion you can draw by looking at my dogs "registered" names.

 

Nicely put! I was trying to find a way to express that same thing.

 

I am certainly anathema to the diehard purity purists of the American kennel club in several ways. I recognize that non-AKC dog sport venues actually exist and I call one of my unpapered rescues a purebred Border Collie. And while the sin of owning rescues may be pardonable to some of them, the fact that I do not repent of it and bow down to their purity is not.

 

I am neither a stockdog handler, nor a kennel club "fancier". If one were to draw a conclusion one way or the other based on my dog's name, he or she would simply be . . . wrong.

[Sue R]

Generally it would be very wrong to draw conclusions about a dog or its owner based on its name. How about the ISDS working dog and trial winner whose owner has an ISDS affix and has registered him with that followed by a short name but also has a similar but not identical KC affix and longer KC registered name for agility? Same dog, same working ability, same owner/breeder. Which box do they belong in?

Honestly, how often does that happen? A real ISDS working dog/trial winner that is also a KC-registered agility dog? Not only outside the box, but most likely outside the realm of reality, perhaps?

[Gloria Atwater]

Is the KC really any different philosophically (and therefore in practice) than the AKC?

 

There are some top ISDS dogs that are dual-registered with the KC for the simple reason that a number of countries in Europe are under the aegis of the FCI, which (if I remember correctly) does not accept ISDS registration alone for sheepdogs to compete in the trials that fall under its venue. And, in those countries, FCI is the only body recognized to conduct sheepdog trials. I may be a bit fuzzy on this but I think I have the general idea right. In order for ISDS dogs and ISDS-parented pups to be registered in those countries, the animals must also be FCI registered, which means KC registered. I think it's a shame that the bastion of quality working sheepdogs is not recognized but there are some strange (to some of us) and/or restricting rules in some countries.

 

PS - It has been quite controversial but in some of those countries, FCI has set "tests" for breeding status that includes some "tests" that have nothing to do with working ability and would disqualify some excellent dogs from being bred for no good reason.

 

 

Ah, okay, thanks for that. I'm pretty fuzzy about how things are done overseas.

 

So, I wonder if those particular dogs, ISDS/FCI registry who are used foremost for work and/or trialing will have the fancy monikers, or if they still manage to simplify their naming process. I suspect many of those dual registry dogs just use kennel names for their full registered names, such as Kinloch Spot or Killibrae Floss.

 

Anyhow, my point remains: outside of instances where a dog is required to have dual registry in order to trial in countries outside the UK or US, a fancy KC name is still outside tradition and for many working/trial folks, a suggestion that the dog's pedigree and actual working ability may merit extra scrutiny.

 

Gloria

[GentleLake]

 

 

 

Anyhow, my point remains: outside of instances where a dog is required to have dual registry in order to trial in countries outside the UK or US, a fancy KC name is still outside tradition and for many working/trial folks, a suggestion that the dog's pedigree and actual working ability may merit extra scrutiny.

 

 

 

 

Excellent point, this.

[urge to herd]

I haven't read the whole thread, but here's my take.

 

Introducing a working team is done using the human name and the dog name. This is reflective of the fact that this work is a team effort. It doesn't matter about the dog (or human) pedigree, or anything else. The work matters. That's all.

 

Anything else in introducing a working team is not about the work. I think silly names are a lot of fun, there have always been silly names for my pets. And a few for the humans, too.

 

I could do a serious riff about tangential issues, but for me it comes to it's about the work.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[Sue R]

So, I wonder if those particular dogs, ISDS/FCI registry who are used foremost for work and/or trialing will have the fancy monikers, or if they still manage to simplify their naming process. I suspect many of those dual registry dogs just use kennel names for their full registered names, such as Kinloch Spot or Killibrae Floss.

 

Anyhow, my point remains: outside of instances where a dog is required to have dual registry in order to trial in countries outside the UK or US, a fancy KC name is still outside tradition and for many working/trial folks, a suggestion that the dog's pedigree and actual working ability may merit extra scrutiny.

 

Gloria

As far as I know, they have simple names. I *think* (and this is totally just a *think*) that their FCI registered names may be (for instance) Spot ISDS ****** or Spot ****** with the asterisks being the ISDS registration number. That would allow every ISDS dog that must be registered with the KC (for breeding use in FCI countries that do not recognize ISDS), to have a unique registered name that is really nothing more than its ISDS name plus its ISDS number. That would be simple if it were the case.

[Sue R]

...Introducing a working team is done using the human name and the dog name. This is reflective of the fact that this work is a team effort. It doesn't matter about the dog (or human) pedigree, or anything else. The work matters. That's all.

 

Anything else in introducing a working team is not about the work. I think silly names are a lot of fun, there have always been silly names for my pets. And a few for the humans, too...

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

Well said, Ruth!

[Sunday]

What you're expressing here isn't both views, it's the kennel club view. Pretty much everybody -- KC or working or other -- uses a short name for their dog in everyday life. What distinguishes the KC culture people from the working culture people is that the KC culture people describe that name as a "call" name and make up a "longer unique" "formal registered" name for the dog besides.

Eh, I still think my version is a full name/nickname comparison. My dog doesn't have a call name. He has a shortened version of his name, just like a Matthew would be called Matt.

 

I wouldn't want him to get laughed at by the sheep, so it's a good thing Sun is a city dog.

[Eileen Stein]

I wouldn't want him to get laughed at by the sheep, so it's a good thing Sun is a city dog.

You didn't need to tell me that -- I was able to deduce that he wasn't a working sheepdog by the fact that you gave him a "longer unique" "formal registered" name in addition to the "everyday name" you call him by.

 

But for me to know whether your Matthew/Matt comparison is valid, I'd need to know what his "longer unique" "formal registered" name is.

[SoFreshSoClean]

Actually I've always made up registered names for my rescued dogs, not because I'm part of the KC crowd or want to be, it's more about poking fun at them and having some fun with our dog's history.

 

Ginger the BC had lived with elderly cloistered nuns and they lived at the Home of the Good Shepherd. She was given up because she was biting the nuns (a BC without any rules; getting payback for all those Catholic school kids). Therefore Ginger was "The Good Shepherd's Bad Habit".

 

 

This one cracked me up! All of our rescues have oh-so-fancy registered names. Mostly b/c there is a space for them and I like funny pun-ish things.

 

Like our pit bull who is always getting dirty: Delicate Flower's Beauty School Drop-Out. No one really sees it but it amuses me.

 

Our terrier mix does agility and is registered as The Evil Peanut. When I got his first certificate I got a good laugh at his "formal" name printed in fancy type.

 

 

I will say that as someone who is always looking at dogs and noting which ones I like - it is nice to see something like "Red Top's Bill" on the lists at agility trials and be able to make a mental note that I like that dog and it's from Red Top. I might not get a chance to talk to you (after all you are competing) and ask about your dog, you might not be a friendly person or I'm feeling shy/socially awkward.

 

I do have some good Goggle skills but "Jim Smith and Fly" can only get me so far.