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Another "White Factor" question

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I have a female that I want to mate. She looks like this:


And the male looks like this:

 


After reading up and down on the white factor- I have understand that I with this mating I can risk getting some white puppies. This because I run the risk of doubling the white gene?

My question is: would you risk it?

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If they are a compliment to one another and both work to a high standard, then yes, I would risk it. You might get mostly white pups.

 

Don't know if your dogs also have the genes to cause white/split faces behind them. I BAER test all my pups anyway, but every litter with a lot of white on the heads should be tested. (All pups, not just the pups with more white.)

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Double white does not necessarily have the same issues as say double merle, which should never be done under any circumstances.

 

All of my BCs' parents are white factored, both of my BCs are white factored and both have classic markings other than Micah's split face. Absolutely no more white than usual, so you just don't know what you will get.

 

Are they good working dogs?

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Both are great working dogs and compliment one another good! I had alredy desided on this male long ago, but then someone told me about the risk of white pups, and i got uncertain because the person said that it was not smart of me to do that combination. I just needed some other thoughts on the subjekt :)

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Maybe that person really dislikes mostly white dogs?

 

White on the head does increase the risk of deaf pups. Do you know if either side tends to produce split or white faces?

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Ther are some split faced after the father of the bitch (non of her full siblings have), and I have found one split faced after the father of the male on the image. Not easy to find all, because they are all over the world (I live in Norway) :) Thanks for your reply :)

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No helpful advice (sorry) but I would just like to say I really like the look of those dogs!

And as i am just next door (Iceland) I would think it very reasonable you send one of those future puppies over with the Smyril line ferry :lol:

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Locate someone who can do a BAER test on the pups. Very affordable when done on a litter. I work it into my puppy price to cover the cost.

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I'm with Liz on this. Any litter with pups showing lots of white, especially if any pups in the litter have lots of white on the head (or the ears) should get a BAER test. I've done this with my last couple litters as they were white factored. With the incidence of deafness from being white factored is small, would you want to knowingly sell pups that were deaf?

As it ism few are aware of the increasing problem with deafness in the breed, but white factored is something we can discover in young pups. EOD (early onset deafness) is a much more insidious problem and one many ignore.

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Just to be clear, white factored alone isn't correlated with an increased risk of deafness. White headed dogs are correlated with an increased risk of deafness. The genes controlling the two are not thought to be the same, so breeding two white factored dogs who do not have a lot of white on them is unlikely to produce a white-headed dog [ETA: unless they also carry the genes for white heads]. That said, I would at least BAER test any pups who had a lot of white on their heads or ears that had a good (or any) amount of white on them.

 

J.

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I know of one eight-pup litter where a white-factored bitch (and I'm assuming but not sure if the dog was white-factored) produced a high proportion of pups with a lot of white on multiple pups' head (including split-faced and largely white-headed) and two pups were unilaterally deaf by BAER test - but neither (if I remember correctly) was a pup with an over-abundance of white on the head.

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Sue, the split face in the litter indicates a reduction in migration of embryonic cells for the entire litter. So, the entire litter needs to be tested if white heads (aka split face) are even a possibility. As often as not, it's the classic marked pups in the litter that are deaf. I just test all litters to be safe.

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Sue, the split face in the litter indicates a reduction in migration of embryonic cells for the entire litter. So, the entire litter needs to be tested if white heads (aka split face) are even a possibility. As often as not, it's the classic marked pups in the litter that are deaf. I just test all litters to be safe.

 

Thanks, Liz, for the information. I did not know this. And it was both (or at least one but I'm pretty sure both) that were unilateral were classically-marked.

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I get a little upset when I hear all this stuff about white factoring and deafness. I know there have been studies done to establish whether white factoring (whatever that is) leads to either early onset deafness or deafness at a later date. None of these has been conclusive as of my last reading. My original kennel stud dog, Del'mar Turk was a split face dog out of a split face sire and a bitch with a fair amount of white on her. Turk produced at least 25 pups over his lifetime and not one was ever deaf until very late in life when most border collies experience some form of deafness. I'm talking about 12 years of age plus. Turk, himself, was 15 1/2 when he died and still able to hear quite clearly for his age. I don't see anything abnormal in the pictures of the bitch or the dog to make me think there would be a problem. However, that said, I don't know the lines of either dogs and, if early onset deafness was present in the ancestors I might be tempted to do the hearing tests. (Not sure they work that well either)...Bob

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Bob, no one said white headed pups were more likely to suffer from adult onset hearing loss. Pam was saying that the deaf pups are the lesser of the two evils because it can be discovered with a simple test before the pup is sold. Adult onset hearing loss, which is not pigment associated, is far worse in my opinion. You have already put time and money into training the dog and may have also bred it already.

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The Baer hearing test is completely reliable. It isn't anything like snapping your fingers to see the dog turn it's head. That's why you have to find a place that actually does that specific test. I wouldn't trust any other.

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In this thread two different forms of deafness have been discussed: congenital (born deaf) and EOD (goes deaf early in adulthood). There is no evidence that these two forms of deafness are genetically related. There has been at least one published study which indicated there is some correlation (not causation) between congenital deafness and excessive white on the head, merle, or blue eyes in Border Collies. There have been published studies in other breeds which also show a correlation between appearance and congenital deafness. No such studies have been performed for EOD; there is no known correlation between appearance and EOD.

 

 

The correlation between appearance and congenital deafness is not complete (100%); not every white headed Border Collie is deaf and not every deaf dog is white headed, merle or blue eyed. Several of us suspect that every pup in a litter where one or more pups have these appearances is at increased risk of being deaf; this includes pups that do not have these appearances. All of the congenitally deaf pups I have seen (a very small sample size) have been from litters where at least one of these appearances have been present AND most of the deaf pups I have seen were traditionally marked.

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I have not found BARE test i Norway.. Must visit Sweden to get it. Strange, as there are several dog breeds and cat breeds that could have benefit from such a test <_<

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