alligande Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I am genuinely curious about this, after reading about breeding for sports and various threads of people looking for working bred dogs who want breeders who provide early socialization activities. What do these provide the dog? My only puppy I got as a 4 month old rescue who was born in a barn, and he has grown into a great dog, not perfect he can be a little unsure of himself but by border collie standards he is very sane and I could not have asked for a better agility partner he is every thing and more I could have wanted. I have had a number of young fosters and all were growing into fine young dogs and had no early socialization. I am sure there are many different opinions on this, but I am really am just curious, in the next couple of years I will be looking for a puppy and for the first time I think I will not be rescuing as we most likely we will be in Europe and I will need a registered dog to compete fully in agility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I think this is one case where science has gone way OTT. I'm sure that it can be demonstrated that there may be marginal advantages in following a structured socialisation and development plan against a control group but let's face it, most owners with perfectly balanced dogs have got there without any of all that. Everyone I know with a new pup brings it to training even before it had been fully immunised, passes it round to be fussed, lets it meet a selected variety of other dogs and takes it to shows from an early age. It works without over thinking it. I can't think of any brought up like that that are screwed up. Pup is learning about the life it will lead in a pretty laid back way. No forcing to interact if it doesn't want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I volunteered at a municipal shelter for a few years and saw tons of dogs (ranging from litters to adults) that did not have the best upbringing. It is my personal opinion that rock solid temperment, stability, bravery, and resilience are genetic and those are the characteristics that one should seek in a sports prospect. By resilience, I mean the ability to bounce back after something scarey happens. I think that if a dog is born with the right stuff, early breeder socialization is not so important. My personal opinion is that early breeder socialization is most important for dogs that are borderline to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 My opinion based on years of observing dogs of my own, my foster dogs, other dogs in rescue I have worked with, my friends and in various classes I have taught/attended, is temperament is 80% genetic. I have known a few dogs who were basically completely un-socialized who had very good temperaments. A few had odd quirks (like my Ross who was afraid of silverware) but could manage life and all its diversity just fine. I do think for the borderline dogs that active an appropriate socialization can make a significant difference, and I do think that exposure to certain things as puppies can make acclimatization to those things quicker later. I know the puppy I brought home whose owner had already introduced him to a crate and separated the puppies for brief periods was a dream his first few weeks with us, happy to go to sleep alone and already inclined to potty outside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Not to be elitist or to be condescending....I think a lot of it is nothing but a marketing plot. And I don't mean that in only a bad way. In a world where so many influences determine a more or less successful partnership between man and dog (and yes, woman and dog too), that is strictly based on desire for a partner or a more straight forward sport partner, we have tried to identify and influence who a pup is and will become. And since for many it is a lifelong decision that is not taken lightly, a clue into what is to come would be awesome. After all, pups are a bit of a crap shoot. So any help is welcome. One could also look at it as a way for mankind to attempt to improve on nature because we are soooo good at it. And no, this is slight sarcasm. After all, if we believe we can take something less than perfect and make it more perfect...that makes us a bit....well, special. Does the idea that we could/would simply not produce anything less than perfect but we can help it along play into this? I often wonder. I can argue either side very well. And which side I am on largely depends on the mood I am in that day. Nature vs. nurture. I have never bought, rescued, kept a pup based on how well they tested or how well they were socialized. And for me that has worked out ok. But then again, I do not have a large family or live in downtown anywhere. Mine could potentially have a serious stroke if they ever encountered a bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Some people like to have something to worry about rather than just getting on with life. The internet just gives them endless things to fret over and makes them feel guilty if they don't do all that the pundits say they should. I don't think people nowadays are encouraged to trust their own judgement and experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Dear Doggers, Many of the early sheepdog books warn about rearing the pup in the byre without human/life contact and then expecting it to work well when it's 6 months old and brought out into the light of day. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Seems so obvious nowadays but it appears it's still not an uncommon practice from the number of pups raised like that that end up in rescue. There is a bare minimum that a buyer is entitled to expect and for most people who primarily want a pet that would be for a litter to be raised in the house, although that can backfire if it's a crazy household. Sometimes peace and quiet in the byre can be preferable to screaming kids as long as that's not all the pups get. Probably a better idea to keep the kids in the byre and the pups in the house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Looks like many of us have the same ideas, I have an innate suspicion of formalized programs as well as the latest and the best (unless it's a new apple product ), although a lover of technology and gadgets I also have 2 degrees in history and look at life through that lens, bottom line people have been raising good dogs for generations improving their techniques along the way, I would imagine a serious breeder already practises many techniques with their puppie but without putting a name to it, they just do because it creates a better dog. People have come on these boards looking for help finding a breeder but they insist that their puppy needs to have experienced some sort of early childhood program (no idea what they called) and the board generally responds that working breeders don't do such things and OP insists that their new partner most have it and so will look for a non working breeder. What strikes me is a puppy is 8 weeks when he comes home, a little fluff ball who knows nothing once you have him the learning begins. I would imagine most good breeders their puppies have experienced a range of things before going to their homes, handled, playing on the grass etc just not formalized. Even my own farm born rescue had the neighbors kids playing with them from when they were tiny, it's how he came to me. Obviously puppy mill puppies are screwed, and genetics are going to have to carry them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Looks like many of us have the same ideas, I have an innate suspicion of formalized programs as well as the latest and the best Me too, and that extends to this or that handling system or move in agility. But a lot of people like rules to follow. I can't live my life by ticking boxes. I prefer to dissect rules that others follow to see if there is any substance to justify their existence. Even with the good rules it's usually a case of treating them as a general guideline rather than set in stone. Bigger picture rather than nit picking detail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 This early socialization has been a huge selling point with the sports folks who I have spoken with. The breeders claim to be doing much more than letting the pups run around on grass and letting the neighbors' kids handle the pups...,these breeders claim to be exposing the pups to recordings of noises, giving the pups special enrichment areas, and taking the pups on outings to schools, nursing homes, etc. And the pups are exposed to tug toys very very early Talk about conditioning a dog to be "on" all the time. People are paying $`1500-2000+ for these Sport Collies. For that kind of money, I would expect a puppy to shit gold, I was aquainted with 2 pups (different litters and genetics) that came from such a program and was shocked at the timidness of the pups. Of course, all of this begs the question, why are these breedres producing litters that need this sort of intensive socialization (pre 8 weeks) to begin with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 The people who buy into these sorts of programmes don't seem to appreciate that just because some socialisation is a good thing it doesn't necessary follow that a huge amount is going to be even better. I haven't got time to look it out atm but I found a very good article on the dangers of overdoing it and the potential backlash if a pup is overfaced too early. Definitely a marketing ploy in my book, and an unnecessary and potentially harmful one at that. Anyone buying a pup should have more confidence in their own abilities to raise a well balanced dog. Plenty of people who know and do nothing special manage it so how hard can it be? But peer pressure can be very strong and if everyone else seems to be doing it a lot of people will think they should go with the flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekah Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I can't comment on the [in]effectiveness of early socialization, etc as I don't have enough first hand experience in dogs with & without it. However, I have noticed that about 50% of the recently created threads in this subforum are about dealing with fear issues in BCs. In a sensitive breed like collies where fear is so pervasive, might it perhaps be shortsighted to poohpooh any methods which are designed to potentially help the dogs learn how to deal with the world? I'd say that genetics make up the lion's share of how a dog's temperament turns out, but it's hard to tell where that line is drawn. People like Dunbar are forever emphasizing the developmental importance of the first 16 weeks of a puppy's life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Ian Dunbar is one person I think has contributed to the current tendency to excess. Pity because I have a lot of respect for him otherwise and when he first started stressing the need for socialisation most people didn't really think about it. The fact that so many BCs are very sensitive is one reason not to throw too much at them at once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 We should not be breeding dogs with excessive fears to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 ^^This! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I wonder if some of the hype about early socialization (i.e. pre 8 or 9 weeks while still at the breeder's) produces complacency with uneducated puppy buyers. If you (the general you) don't understand that socialization continues beyond 8 weeks, you may not provide your pup with the experiences s/he needs to grow into a more stable dog. (The nurture part of the equation. I do believe that genetics (nature) play a large role.) When I bought my sporter collie about 6.5 years ago before I joined the boards and became 'educated' , I was adamant about getting a dog from a breeder who did the early socialization -- not necessarily for agility, but because my current dog at the time was (and still is) a fearful, anxious and reactive rescue dog. I did not want another dog like that. And when I did get my puppy, I did try to give him various experiences within the first few months. Now I realize I could have done more, but he turned out to be quite stable - no complaints. I have a friend who bought her second pup (not a border collie, but a Welsh Springer) about 16 months after her first. I don't know why she didn't socialize him better (It was also winter, and she HATES having to go outside for extended periods of time in the winter. I dunno.), but she didn't get him out and about. She felt that he was a 'good dog' and since she had the other dog, I guess she thought that was enough. NOT. He is fine at home with humans, but he can hardly function in an outside environment (very, very scared). I sometimes wonder if she was relying more on the early socialization done by the breeder, and didn't follow through with her part in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 And if the dog does develop problems, the breeder can conveniently, blame the buyer for not continuing to socialize, because it can't possibly be genetics and early (pre-8 week) socialization. Interestingly, I saw such a blame game while viewing a Sport Collie breeder's web site last evening. I can't remember where I read this, but the litmus test of temperment is what the dog becomes after its fear periods..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I have certainly not looked for a breeder who provides the extreme early socialization, neural stimulation, etc. Introduction to new surfaces, intro to the clicker, intro to play like tug . . . those are all things that I want the pleasure of introducing myself. (On a formal basis, anyway) I guess coming to this as someone who has done a lot of work with rescues who have changed and grown by leaps and bounds during their time with me, I'm not really as concerned with having a puppy come to me "perfect out of the box" as some people are. I want to be the one who brings many of these new experiences to the puppy. Of course, I wouldn't want the other extreme - puppies who had no human contact or anything like that. But I am not looking for an Agility trial environment ready puppy at 8 weeks by a long shot!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 ^^This! x3!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 And if a breeder ends up with a shy/fearful pup in a litter, then it behooves the breeder to identify that pup and put in some extra time and effort to make sure the pup is well adjusted before sending it to its new owner. I have bred just two litters. I don't do anything formal, but the pups are raised in an active household and are exposed to dogs, cats, people, livestock, etc. I don't have children, but I have never had trouble getting friends with kids to come over and play with puppies. Puppies hear all the noises of a TV, radio, vacuum, people, animals, weather as it occurs, and so on. They start out on paper/cloth, get the run of the plastic tub, the hardwood floors, any rugs, wooden stairs, grass, dirt, etc. They get all sorts of toys, chewables, including bones, etc. I don't even know what extreme neural stimulation is, so I guess I've never provided that to pups. Maybe there is some sort of formalized socialization program that some folks would consider necessary, but I think a normal conscientious breeder raising puppies in the home, or even out in a kennel, is likely to give pups the same sort of socialization, and at least for me, it has worked. FWIW. And in the end, it's going to be the new owner exposing the pup to even more new things and who will be caring for the pup through its fear periods. A careless owner can certainly undo much of what a conscientious breeder does, and I think a good owner can probably make up for lack of very early socialization. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Ian Dunbar is one person I think has contributed to the current tendency to excess. His book about raising puppies was one of many I read when I got Rievualx at 4 months and even though I knew rescue dogs and others can grow into good dogs even without socialization during his critical period it still left me with a bad feeling that I would not be able to make up it up. I wonder how many new dog owners give up if they don't have the dog through Mr Dunbars critical period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super-Levi Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I have certainly not looked for a breeder who provides the extreme early socialization, neural stimulation, etc. Introduction to new surfaces, intro to the clicker, intro to play like tug . . . those are all things that I want the pleasure of introducing myself. (On a formal basis, anyway) I guess coming to this as someone who has done a lot of work with rescues who have changed and grown by leaps and bounds during their time with me, I'm not really as concerned with having a puppy come to me "perfect out of the box" as some people are. I want to be the one who brings many of these new experiences to the puppy. Of course, I wouldn't want the other extreme - puppies who had no human contact or anything like that. But I am not looking for an Agility trial environment ready puppy at 8 weeks by a long shot!! I agree with this. I'd much rather have a pup who had a little less socialization so I could intoduce things to him/her first hand. Though if the breeder really knew what they were doing they probably wouldn't make something a bad experiance for the puppy but the idea of getting a pup who is a 'clean slate' is more attractive to me personally. As a horse trainer, I'd much rather work with a wild horse with no prior human contact than one thats more 'domestic' and possibly already has issues from bad training prior to coming to me. Of course with dogs being a little diffrent I don't think I'd want a feral puppy either but its the clean slate idea that I'm refering to. However with my new little guy being brought up in a barn, there are noises that he doesn't like such as the vacum and hair blow dryer but he's getting use to it very quickly. The important thing is that I know that he isn't going to have a bad experaince if I can help it. With the family great dane however, he was always very socialized as a pup. Not sure what the breeder had done with him but we got him at 6 weeks old. Anyway he will try and bite other dogs who are larger than a toy poodle (he's a gentle giant with his poodles and thankfully little baby Tobias) and does not like strangers at all. We found out that one of his brothers form his litter did attack someone so I would think that his issues are definately genetically linked. Though not all the pups turned out aggressive. His runt sister is a very friendly dog to all strangers like great danes are supose to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I'd like a puppy to have been raised in the home and with lots of handling and exposure to normal household activity, and kids if possible. I'm not sold on the structured socialization or neural stimuli, but I doubt they'd do a pup any harm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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