Border Collie Breeder!!! :)

[Kian's Mom]

I agree with Shetlander.

I'm not really sure about mine. The breeder raised goats but I cant remember if she used her dogs or not. She does have one grandfather who herds. There are two in our group of agility that are from working parents. Nice dogs but obsessed with the teeter. Barking, biting spinning. They bark at the trial at dogs passing by. Mine goes out and does what she needs to do. She has only been to 3 trials and does stay focused on the dogs running ( which we are working on ) but none of the other.

True I don't know exactly how the others were trained but with mine, we worked on laying at my feet an being calm. The only real issue I have is her barking at the office or at home. She also hates going into Rural King. Everything is gonna get her. We still have a lot to work on. She does not bark or avoid people at trials, just most other places.

But I feel for me that if their dogs were an example of what a working bred BC was like, I didn't want one.

This is my first Border Collie and starting out I feel she is the perfect dog for me. We may never be a great agility dog and go to nationals, But that's ok. We are having fun and both are learning.

I have learned a lot from this sight and have got some very good advice from just reading other post. May not agree with it all, but that is what makes us all individuals , we all have our own opinions.

In looking for my next one I will know more of what to look for an what to avoid.

Thanks to All.

[SS Cressa]

When I was saying neurotic I was thinking more unstable.

My sport bred boy had an off switch but he had a very low threshold for getting over the edge. Once over the edge he couldn't calm down.

Also I would say about 75-80% of the sport bred border collies I know are aggressive, are turn on quick without being able to settle, and have OCD. There are a couple of good sport breeder in our area now. So hopefully there will be better sport bred border collie ambassador's soon. There are good sport bred just the batch I was expose to and some I know will be bred too aren't the best temperament. Hope that makes sense?

When I say aggressive you have ti give these dogs like a 5 ft radius going pass them on leash or in their kennels.

My working bred boy is able to relax next to the ring from the start. Which really impressed basically every one who saw it since their border collies would have been screaming, lunging, flipping out at that age that close to the ring.

To be fair a lot of the farm bred border collies in our area also have issue with structure.

[mum24dog]

 

When I say aggressive you have ti give these dogs like a 5 ft radius going pass them on leash or in their kennels.

 

 

 

Maybe our sport collies are different, but then maybe not from some of the replies from people who seem to meet the sort of dogs I'm used to.

 

Our dogs have to have a decent measure of self control since they are in close proximity to dogs and people all the time when round the rings. I was at a 6 ring indoor show on Saturday and would estimate that there were at least 750 dogs around. It would be impossible if dogs needed the sort of wide berth you are talking about.

 

We don't use crates at shows in the same way you do. A dog that is going to run comes from the car or camping pitch , queues with 10 - 15 other dogs by the ring, runs, is returned. Any amount of just hanging around amongst dogs and people can be added to that scenario. A dog has to be able to cope without a refuge or containment area and most can.

 

Our probably farm bred dog is not one of those unfortunately and is consequently very hard work. Who would really wish that on themselves by buying a pup they know will likely turn out to be hell on a lead? Makes no sense to me.

 

Some dogs will get over aroused in the queue but the ones belonging to top handlers rarely do. They are expected to wait calmly while their handler chats to his or her neighbours until they get near the head of the queue.

 

You really can't tell the breeding of a dog from its sporting behaviour.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms Gina writes: "I actually think the over the top, can't relax sport Border Collies are a result of the training that's going on in agility. Many of the top trainers make you think your dog needs to be all jacked up and out of control in order to be fast."

 

In the agility trials I've seen in the UK, the US and on US television the Border Collies were so cranked up some barked as they ran. Whether that crank makes them faster, I don't know. As a sheepdogger, it made me wince.

 

Donald McCaig

[mum24dog]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms Gina writes: "I actually think the over the top, can't relax sport Border Collies are a result of the training that's going on in agility. Many of the top trainers make you think your dog needs to be all jacked up and out of control in order to be fast."

 

In the agility trials I've seen in the UK, the US and on US television the Border Collies were so cranked up some barked as they ran. Whether that crank makes them faster, I don't know. As a sheepdogger, it made me wince.

 

Donald McCaig

 

 

One or was it two agility shows you've seen in the UK? I can't remember what you've said in the past exactly.

 

Some collies do bark when working and it would drive me mad if mine did and I would do my best to train it out, but they bark for different reasons. Some bark out of frustration with their inept handler. Some bark because they are OTT and can't concentrate. Some bark because they are enjoying themselves so much but can still listen and follow directions.

 

Most dogs don't bark when running. It isn't encouraged and most people would rather it didn't happen. Those who don't mind dogs barking can do flyball instead. I'm sure all that noise isn't necessary there either though.

 

I will make an exception though - Border Terriers bark when running - a lot. Far more than other terriers and terriers in general are well known for being vocal.

 

As for "cranking up" a dog, just because you may see someone playing tug with a dog it doesn't necessarily mean they are trying to wind it up. Some people use it as a signal to the dog to get into work mode, some as a distraction from all that is going on close by.

 

Noone with an ounce of sense wants a dog that is so pumped with adrenaline that it can't respond instantly and accurately to the split second physical and/or verbal cues it will be given to perform at top speed, where the twitch of a finger at the wrong time can send it off course.

 

Unfortunately, as with any large group of people, you are bound to come across some who lack even that ounce.

[Shetlander]

Ms Gina writes: "I actually think the over the top, can't relax sport Border Collies are a result of the training that's going on in agility. Many of the top trainers make you think your dog needs to be all jacked up and out of control in order to be fast."

 

In the agility trials I've seen in the UK, the US and on US television the Border Collies were so cranked up some barked as they ran. Whether that crank makes them faster, I don't know. As a sheepdogger, it made me wince.

 

What top trainers are saying you want your dog out of control? An out of control dog is the last thing an agility person wants. Just because an agility dog seems too wound up to someone who isn’t into agility, or barks on course or tugs at the start line doesn’t mean it is out of control.

 

They aren’t working sheep. They’re playing a game that rewards speed and accuracy. Some dogs bark out of frustration, it is true. Many bark for a variety of other reasons, including the fact that they are enjoying themselves. I have a friend whose dog always barks through the weaves and is known to give bark after a command. Her other Border Collies did not bark on course. He still follows her direction while he moves at warp speed. In his case, he is clearly having a blast out there. I always smile when I hear him making his way through the weaves.

[Sekah]

I will make an exception though - Border Terriers bark when running - a lot. Far more than other terriers and terriers in general are well known for being vocal.

 

I would posit that Aussies require another exception.

[Laurelin]

Imo agility dogs can look a lot wilder than they are. I know my old papillon just loves the game so much, it gets her excited like nothing else. She comes across as very high energy and excitable (she spins rapidly and bounces before I set her up on the start line). But in actuality she's just excited and happy to play the game. At home, she's a dog that sleeps most the day and wants nothing more than to sit on your lap and cuddle.

 

I think it can be misleading if you only see the dog when it's amped up.

[alligande]

Imo agility dogs can look a lot wilder than they are. I know my old papillon just loves the game so much, it gets her excited like nothing else. She comes across as very high energy and excitable (she spins rapidly and bounces before I set her up on the start line). But in actuality she's just excited and happy to play the game. At home, she's a dog that sleeps most the day and wants nothing more than to sit on your lap and cuddle.

 

I think it can be misleading if you only see the dog when it's amped up.

This I fully agree with, my dog is very mellow dog at home, he is a bit of a whimp, very soft and gentle, a couple of years ago when he was 2 and had been competing for about 6 months we went to a trial in a horse arena and when he saw the jumps as we walked in he lept, spun and screamed all at the same time in excitement, needless to say we did not have a good day, if I had not driven 2 1/2 hours with a friend I think I would have gone home then. A couple of years later he is a lot calmer but it is obvious that that playing agility for him is a really fun game. I hate constant barking, it was one of the reasons I would never do fly ball, most dogs do not bark constantly on course if they did I would not be there. A good agility dog needs to think the game is the most fun ever to give you their best.

My opinions on different types of breeding have been derived from conversations with other owners who have asked me what Rievaulx is like to live with as he is very intense in an agility setting, and they are often ready to sympathize with me about our nutty dogs and then wonder what I did differently, mine just came as a good pet. Having a wild beast of my own I certainly would not judge others by their behavior in an agility ring.

[Root Beer]

If the dog has a good off switch, revving the dog up with a game of tug isn't going to send the dog over the top. Tug games can even be used very effectively to build that off switch - if the dog has the mental capacity to develop the off switch well.

 

I'm not one to use tug as a cure for everything, but I have come to appreciate it very much as a way to add a bit of drive when drive is lacking, and also as a way to build calmness and focus. I know how to use it to build calmness and focus, so I take advantage of that skill when it is beneficial to my dog.

 

I don't see a whole lot of Border Collies barking during Agility runs. Some, but not many. Aussies - yes, they tend to be the big barkers. Dean has woofed at me maybe twice in his entire Agility career and it was to let me know my handling was atrocious when I absolutely deserved it!!

 

But he wasn't bred for sports, so I guess he's also not part of the population under discussion regarding tug and being over the top and barking.

[Smalahundur]

Icelandic sheepdogs bark while working. A lot of farmers really appreciate that, not me, I love the silent style of border collies.

But you wouldn´t believe how often I have been asked after showing my dog telling them them it works stock "Oh, does it bark?" (not expecting/liking a negative answer).

[Camden's Mom]

Camden is not much of a barker, but when I enrolled us into a foundation agility class last year he found his voice. The instructor smiled with delight. She was thrilled!! "You've got yourself a screamin' collie" she exclaimed with glee! I was not so impressed. I know what my dog looks like when he's focused and learning. The glazed over look in his eyes as he spun around, barked and raced blindly through the beginner obstacles was more like controlled chaos then "working". Honestly it didn't even look like he was having fun, just being manic and way over threshold the entire time.

 

But we were there to give agility an honest try, and the instructor seemed to think everything was just fine, so I went along. We'd get him all jacked up and send him out to bark and scream through the obstacles. I hated it. Between the third and fourth class I called the instructor and explained that I'd like to go at agility a different way. To the instructor's credit, she worked with Camden and I at a calmer, quieter level from then on. Sure, she was still helping the other owners get their dogs cranked up, but she'd then come over and show me how to to the same thing with my dog without using excitement (he gets excited enough without any help from me). I liked it a lot better that way.

 

I guess my point is that, in my very limited experience, my instructor did encourage that level of excitement in the ring. I don't know that it means the dog screaming around the agility course can't settle down nicely at home. I do know that i didn't like seeing my dog in that state of mind.

[dogrsqr]

I am an agility person and I fail to see why anyone should need to tug their dog to the ring or into the ring. I don't care if they bark during their entire run, it's annoying and I wouldn't want my dog to do it, but your time in the ring is your time in the ring.

 

I do have a huge problem with the amount of tugging that goes on at some agility trials. First of all this is a dangerous practice considering that many times we are in tight quarters (indoor trials). Secondly I think it's rude and inconsiderate of the other people that are waiting for their turn in the ring. Thirdly, most of these dogs really like agility so I'm not sure why they can't do a quiet activity to keep their dog occupied and focused.

 

Expecting multiple dogs who don't know each other to just accept another dog standing next to them growling and killing a tug toy is expecting a dog not to be a dog.

 

Just my opinion and I'm sure I'll be told that a dog objecting to the tugging is a training issue. From my perspective the dog "needing" the tugging is a training issue.

[Shetlander]

Camden's Mom, that doesn't sound like much of a foundation class. In fact, what you describe doesn't even begin to sound like a foundation class. Why would he be racing around doing obstacles if it was foundation work?

 

There are all kinds of classes and instructors out there, some great, some horrible, a bunch in between. Agility foundation is a combination of learning very precise behaviors, mastering independent obstacle performance, learning to take direction, and building/maintaining drive. For foundation building, I worked with my dogs on several very basic behaviors that taught not just drive but focus, confidence and self control. The start line stay, for example. Quinn worked on that multiple times a day as a pup in a variety of routine ways, such as waiting to be released to a meal or a toy. He had the calmest, steadiest start line stay but as soon as he was released, he was off like a rocket. We worked on contact performance in small, steady increments. When he was old enough, he learned weaves through 2x2. What I love about that method is it really builds the dog's frustration tolerance, drive and accuracy. I think for the longest time, weaves were an elaborate game of fetch (as the reward) for Quinn but he was blazing fast and accurate from all kinds of entry angles. That is drive, focus and control. That is what a successful agility dog needs.

 

For me anyway, training agility is quite a project. That foundation class you went to sounds rudimentary at best. More accurately, the instructor sounds quite misguided and that was not a very good introduction to the sport for you or Camden. I wouldn't have liked it either.

[Laurelin]

There's a lot of different ways to do agility work and not all good. I've been through 5 trainers now, 4 schools. 2 did good foundation work and the others just skipped right over it. Agility is a moneymaker and most people wanting to train want to do the 'fun stuff'. A lot of instructors seem to cater to trying to get people to sign up for more vs actually teaching the skills. And the way to do that is get the dogs on obstacles ASAP. Foundation work can look very boring to a non-agility person. I've noticed the turnover rate for the good classes is a lot higher than the 'get the dogs on the equipment as fast as possible classes'. Sadly.

[mum24dog]

 

I would posit that Aussies require another exception.

 

True, and working cockers that aren't supposed to bark when working in the field.

[Shetlander]

A lot of instructors seem to cater to trying to get people to sign up for more vs actually teaching the skills. And the way to do that is get the dogs on obstacles ASAP. Foundation work can look very boring to a non-agility person. I've noticed the turnover rate for the good classes is a lot higher than the 'get the dogs on the equipment as fast as possible classes'. Sadly.

That is an excellent point. My very first agility class with my first agility dog was like that, but with a more controlled approach than Camden's mom describes. Still, there was no true foundation work, just learning obstacles to some extent and simple sequencing. That worked fine for my dogs at the time and I became hooked. And they just called it Beginning Agility without pretending it was Foundation building.

 

Of course, the more you learn, the more you realize what you don't know. I trained my next agility dog very differently and by the time I started with Quinn, it was like working on a physics project. But as a beginner in agility, most people will not understand the reasons for solid foundation work, much less find it enjoyable. I had so much fun training puppy Quinn on the basics and putting the building blocks in place. But he was my Third Wave of agility training. It couldn't have been more different than how I started out in the sport with my Shelties.

[alligande]

Don't get me started on bad agility training having been a victim of it with my first dog... I wanted to compete and I wanted to learn, instead I ended up with a dog who was not really keen on agility as I did not understand the basics. I could head seriously off topic on this subject. I currently take online classes as I really don't like any available training within a reasonable drive, and I did all my current foundation work myself.

Then we have tug, I am very much of the live and let live school, but my dog loves tug, and when another dog is playing he wants to play... Let's just say it can be quite challenging to keep him calm particularly at an indoor trial where it's hard to get away and the queue is cramped.

What all this boils down to is I don't think you can judge the character of a sports dog while they are competing, it's what they are like at home, to train, walking around outside. My favorite trainers dogs both sports bred have personal issues, one can't hike off leash (they live opposite a great park) as he hates all other dogs and got worse when she neutered him and the other took a huge amount of work to get motivated. They are both competive dogs, and are a credit to her training and handling, they look well mannered at trials but are hopeless pets.

[Camden's Mom]

Yeah, I certainly don't mean to bash the instructor I worked with. She really was very nice and a lot of the dogs in the class needed to get a bit more excited about the activity... just not my dog. He was plenty excited enough, thank you very much.

 

She was very, very kind and immediately changes tactics with me when I suggested I wanted to try a different approach. She also recommended a few local trainers who handle border collies specifically (there was only one other BC in the class).

 

We mostly talked about foundation work (start line stays, contacts, etc.) and spent a little bit of time at the beginning of classes working on it, otherwise it was "homework". I think a few of you had it right, most people wanted to play on the equipment with their dogs so she allowed a lot of obstacle time.

 

Anyways, I think I'm veering way off topic, but I just didn't want to give the impression that she opened the gate to the agility facility and let us all run wild on the course.

[D'Elle]

The Mob meets the ACK

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok Rocko grab da man’s thumb……Now I am a patient man……..I am going to let yoos try to figure dis out on your own, because I am reasonable.-

Dis here workin freakin dogs dey are called?.....

Can’t hear ya

Rocko move your fist outta da guys mouth………..

Dats right dey are Border Collie dogs.

Now your kinda dogs…dem dogs …what are dey called?

No, that’s not wat dey are called, smart guy.

So now, wat are dey called?

Whataya mean ya don’t know?

Rocko, I can’t unda-stand him because your fist is still in his mouth, move yos fist…..

Ok….Guy…dem dogs are anyting…yoos can call dem anything EXCEPT what…….?

Dats right…anyting but Border Collie dogs

Ya see paly, dats not so hard……Don’t forget now…Or we will be back, brother and not so unda-standing as today.

ok…Let em up Rocko.

Hey, nice wall paper in here, ya know…really high class establishment.

Hey I’ll give ya one more piece of advice, never piss off a sheep dairy. Man dos guys are mean. And dey give us ricotta for free, kinda in exchange for our services. Ya know?

 

, Tea.

Thanks for the laugh.....

[Sue R]

And how did I manage to miss this? Too good, Tea!

 

The Mob meets the ACK

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok Rocko grab da man’s thumb……Now I am a patient man……..I am going to let yoos try to figure dis out on your own, because I am reasonable.-

Dis here workin freakin dogs dey are called?.....

Can’t hear ya

Rocko move your fist outta da guys mouth………..

Dats right dey are Border Collie dogs.

Now your kinda dogs…dem dogs …what are dey called?

No, that’s not wat dey are called, smart guy.

So now, wat are dey called?

Whataya mean ya don’t know?

Rocko, I can’t unda-stand him because your fist is still in his mouth, move yos fist…..

Ok….Guy…dem dogs are anyting…yoos can call dem anything EXCEPT what…….?

Dats right…anyting but Border Collie dogs

Ya see paly, dats not so hard……Don’t forget now…Or we will be back, brother and not so unda-standing as today.

ok…Let em up Rocko.

Hey, nice wall paper in here, ya know…really high class establishment.

Hey I’ll give ya one more piece of advice, never piss off a sheep dairy. Man dos guys are mean. And dey give us ricotta for free, kinda in exchange for our services. Ya know?

[ShoresDog]

Now that this thread is up to 7 pages, I don't think I have it in me to read them all! But a while ago, Diana A posted a very good explanation for why people who pursue sports with their border collies should care that border collie breeding is done for working ability. I cut, pasted, and saved it, because I thought it was so on point. I'll quote it here:

 

Diana A

Posted 05 July 2011 - 03:01 PM

 

To answer your question - breeding for stockwork for so many generations is what made the border collie what it is today. Then along came dog sports, and it was discovered that these border collies far surpassed other breeds in drive, focus, work ethic, and athletic ability, to the point where they dominated many of the dog sports pretty quickly. So I would take that as evidence that yes, a working bred dog should have the traits needed to be a good sport dog, as a byproduct of being bred for work.

On the flip side, breeding for sports values many of those same factors (drive, focus, etc), but the stock sense and talent is absent, not part of the breeding equation. I believe it is the stockwork that keeps all those other traits in balance - you need drive but you need self-control and the ability to think clearly even in very high excitement situations, you need a strong desire to work but you still need biddability and the desire to yield to the handler, you need focus, but not obsessive focus to where the dog becomes neurotic. You need lots of stamina to work, but also a dog who can settle when there's no work to be done. A GOOD border collie is a balance of a lot of pretty extreme traits, and I think it's the hard selective pressure of the work they were bred to do that has kept all those things in balance. As an example, take a look at show ring bred border collies. They have very different drive and work ethic, and it's interesting that you do not see that many of the 'show' type in dog sports these days.

 

Now I won't say that if you go to a sport breeder you won't find a nice dog for whatever is your sport of choice. You probably will. Not necessarily a better dog than you would have got from working lines, but I imagine they would be good at whatever sport they were bred for. But I believe as time goes on you're going to see the sport bred dogs branch off and become a different type of dog - that balance created by the stockwork will be missing, certain things emphasized, others diminished. Why mess with perfection? This whole sport thing has only been going on for a pretty short time in the grand scheme of things, so the changes may not be that evident yet. If you want to contribute to preserving this marvelous and unique breed of dog for what it was meant to be, then it's better to support the working breeders, and you will still get a nice dog too.

[madrose124]

At the risk of repeating what everyone else has said, and the probability that the OP isn't reading this...

 

I'll try to put it simply. "True" Border Collies are bred to herd sheep. They do not have a breed or appearance "standard" for this reason. Health & workability are the ONLY factors considered in a quality breeding pair, all extras, color, ears, coat, size, are very VERY secondary. That is what a border collie is intended to be. A herder.

 

Now, even from the best "workingest" dog pairing, you will still have a few pups in the litter with either a lack of herding drive, or a personality type making them ineffective at herding. Those dogs should be placed in pet/sport homes.

 

The AKC is an organization that has put SO much emphasis on appearance of ANY dog breed in the show ring, that in order for these dogs to win they are going to be bred to look a certain way, and over time the "look trends" change, and inevitably the dogs get fluffier poof coats and bigger bones---all the while NO CARE for working ability is considered. At which point, true border collie people, will not see these dogs as ACTUAL border collies--only look alikes. The AKC already ruined the Australian Shepherd as a working dog, many of us here do not want to see the same happen to the border collie at the hands of AKC.

 

Therefore, few here will recommend buying any border collie bred from AKC stock...as with AKC these dogs will have been bred for appearance for generations, all the while losing the working ability that made them what they were.

 

So the real question is, do you want a real border collie (and even a puppy from a border collie breeder that would be best suited for sport--as I mentioned, there will always be some from a litter that are not suited for livestock work) or do you want a dog that kind of has the colors of what most think a border collie looks like?

[GentleLake]

The AKC already ruined the Australian Shepherd as a working dog

 

Most Aussies were already ruined for stock work before the ACK got hold of them, which was only 4 years before border collies were hijacked "recognized." And, AFAIK, the ASCA did that all by themselves, as they had already been breeding for conformation for some time.

 

Otherwise, I agree with your post.

[Sekah]

Now, even from the best "workingest" dog pairing, you will still have a few pups in the litter with either a lack of herding drive, or a personality type making them ineffective at herding. Those dogs should be placed in pet/sport homes.

 

...

 

So the real question is, do you want a real border collie (and even a puppy from a border collie breeder that would be best suited for sport--as I mentioned, there will always be some from a litter that are not suited for livestock work) or do you want a dog that kind of has the colors of what most think a border collie looks like?

 

So the dogs who fail at herding can be sloughed off to sport homes? When people are arguing that it's the herding ability of the border collie which defines the breed and is at the root of the breed's ability to excel at sports, does it not seem a little counter-intuitive to suggest that you can send the herding rejects off to run agility?

 

I admit I'm being a bit argumentative and literal, but I'm sure you can see the issue some might take with that mindset.