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Border Collie Breeder!!! :)


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I know that BC's are bred to herd, it just not make any sense why people here don't like BC's doing agility and not working with sheep!

 

Killua,

 

I've been on this board for I don't even know how many years. Since like 2004 or something?

 

I have never been anything but a sport enthusiast with my Border Collies.

 

Nobody - not one person on this board - ever - has told me that I should stop doing Agility, or Freestyle (which even I will admit is a sport geared toward eccentricity) for that matter, with my Border Collies. I've been involved in many a knock-down drag out debate over a lot of different topics, and have been a thorn in the side of many over the years, but I think it is very much worth noting that nobody has ever said, "Kristine, you should not do Agility with your Border Collies". Nor even, "You should not own Border Collies if you don't have or work sheep".

 

I don't really know where people get that idea. But, believe me, if it was going to be said on here, I would have heard it . . .

 

The discussion here is about breeding criteria, not personal choice of what to do with one's dog.

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So your opinion will only valid? Too arrogant!

 

Really? Really?!?

 

Of all of the thoughtful replies that people have taken the time to write, addressing your original question/concern about why breeding sport line BCs is not widely accepted by the users of this forum, the post you decided to respond to was the one impolite (and shortest) response you've gotten thus far!?!? Good grief, no wonder people on these boards sometimes say they feel like they are "wasting their breathe".

 

For whatever it's worth, to all of you who have taken the time to construct thoughtful replies on this topic, I have very much enjoyed this conversation and have been taking in all that's been shared thus far. I really loved the book analogy that Eileen used, understandable and poignant! I'm pretty new to this wonderful world of border collies and this topic is very interesting to me. I can't weigh in with an opinion (I don't have enough knowledge of this to even have one) but I will continue to enjoy the conversation and learn along the way. OK, back to it, folks. ;)

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I know I asked previously about Hob Nob, and I did get the same response. I do not understand, though. Why don't they "work" and because they are AKC registered you don't like them? Like I have said I do not know anything about picking a good breeder, please enlighten me,

 

Hi BCLover2000,

 

This is a video of the an AKC dog herding sheep.

 

This is a video of an ABCA border collie that has been bred for stock work competing at the highest level of a USBCHA trial. (Scott Glen and Don are actually the 2013 National Champions)

 

ACK border collies are not bred for working ability. They are bred to meet a breed standard. Sport dogs are bred to compete in sports. The eccense of a border collie is its unmatched stock working ability.

 

Border collies bred for sports and show are not border collies in my opinion.

 

You have recieved some good tips to finding a good working border collie breeder for your next sport partner.

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So many good posts! I agree with Camden's Mom. I am very new to owning a Border Collie, and as a rescue with a "who-knows-what" sire, it's likely my gal would never be good on stock. She also probably does not come from any working lines.

 

Based on speed, and what I have seen so far, she'd probably do great at agility or obedience. But, I have not once heard a single peep from anyone downplaying what I chose or don't chose to do with my dog.

 

Please don't stop sharing your opinions, those of you who have, or I suspect over time our beloved working Border Collie will all but disappear.

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My Open dog Gabe has a litter mate who competes exceptionally on the national scene. These are well-bred dogs who have nothing but sheepdogs in their pedigrees, and I am proud to support his sister and her handler! Oh, she also runs a rescue dog :)

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I think it's likely a chicken and egg situation. People who are intense about agility get dogs out of dogs who have been successful at agility. They're often accomplished handlers and end up doing well at agility with their dogs. Is the handler? Is it the breeding? It's tough to say.

 

I'd say that the top agility/flyball dogs in my area are almost entirely sports bred.

 

 

I would say 98% this.

 

And I do think that "good structure" for a high impact sport like agility varies slightly from what most folks would consider good structure. Angles do matter to a degree in injury prevention and speed, and a sports breeder who is ethical and trying to produce a better sports dog* might have an advantage there for whatever that degree is.

 

I also think that a very good ethical sport breeder* might offer some very early socialization and things that an average working breeder might not. I feel like temperament is more a matter of genetics than of early puppy experiences, but there's some impact and I know a few folks who really bust their ass with litters of sports/perfoemance bred dogs to get kids over to handle them, appropriate adult dogs, take them appropriate places, teaching them about household noises (vaccums), take them on car rides, cats, they do things to enhance house training (litter pens and sod in puppy enclosures) and the eventual litter separation. These things do help build confident puppies who do well in new homes. SO there is that too.

 

* please note I do agree with Board philosophy for breeding Border Collies, but I do think there are some folks out there who still breed with what I would call ethics based on their own cultures...

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Hey, I have a question for the agility people here.

 

Do the sports bred dogs - like Hobnob - actually do better at agility? Or do they just cost a whole lot more?

 

Or do our little working bred guys do just as well and cost about half as much?

 

.

I think it depends on the venue you are competing in, In the NE competing in USDAA I meet a range of working bred/sports bred/AKC I know a number of great dogs that are working bred and also compete in USBCHA trials and their owners are fiercely proud of their dogs non AKC heritage. I know an employee of Clean Run who's dog is also working bred.

To be honest it's a weird environment a bit of a secret society, as if neither side wants to offend the other, I have made friends with people with AKC dogs, I just never talk about the divide, I usually find out about working dogs when people ask me about my dog (he is flashy looking, and rather dramatic on course people notice him) and when I mention he is a rescue farm dog it opens up their story. The very big names will do AKC and I think have others have mentioned will seek out sports dogs, (although a top competitor/trainer I know would have gladly swapped dogs with me) as its the circles they move in and they will dual register making many working bred dogs unavailable to them.

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Hey, I have a question for the agility people here.

 

Do the sports bred dogs - like Hobnob - actually do better at agility? Or do they just cost a whole lot more?

 

Or do our little working bred guys do just as well and cost about half as much?

 

I'm to the point where I just want to tell the sports guys to just go buy your sports bred dogs. They are a completely different breed of dog now. Just don't ever expect them to be able to work stock if you get interested in it because they won't be able to. And don't ever take them to a serious stockdog clinic because you will just be embarrassed to death when your dog just walks around the pen eating sheep poop and completely ignores the sheep.. But I'm not sure those people would be interested in ever working stock anyway.

 

I just don't care anymore.

 

You want to see the difference between the sports bred dogs and out working bred dogsl? Go out on Youtube and watch the videos of the dogs working cattle in the pens. Or the videos of the shepherds bringing in a thousand sheep with only the help of two dogs. That is the difference.

We are in agreement in our "whatever" attitude.

 

As for which type is better at agility, chicken and egg is right. Sport bred dogs may appear better because of their high profile but it doesn't mean it is true. On the other hand there's no evidence that working bred dogs are better either. They're all just dogs and some will be more talented at agility than others, whatever their breeding.

 

I even know a few conformation dogs that excel at it because they are trained and handled by the right people.

 

I know a lot of excellent dogs that are half and half sport and real working dog bred so I find it difficult to distinguish between the two when asked to give my opinion on which type is better.

 

I'm sure that people breeding with a view to producing great agility dogs will make similar decisions to those of a working dog breeder; they will try and match bitch and dog to complement each other's strengths and weaknesses.

 

If you want to compete abroad you'll have more options if your dog is registered with a national KC but you could still achieve that object with a dual registered nothing but working bred dog. Top handlers are more likely to want to compete internationally so it would be more of an issue for them, but there are still plenty of super farm bred dogs in the sport here in the UK because our KC doesn't discriminate between those dogs registered on the breed register and those that are not as far as sports are concerned.

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Hey, I have a question for the agility people here.

 

Do the sports bred dogs - like Hobnob - actually do better at agility? Or do they just cost a whole lot more?

 

Or do our little working bred guys do just as well and cost about half as much?

I have very limited experience with either sport bred or working bred, but I can tell you that my agility instructor loves my 2 working bred dogs and thinks they can do anything. She doesn't act like she thinks the same about her sport bred BC.

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just to throw a wrench in the whole discussion_ what if all the people who wanted "sport" dogs saw the light and turned to working bred dogs? would there be a supply to fill that demand? how would it effect how people breed? I'm not sure that breeding working dogs at the criteria we desire-making a better working border collie, would fulfill the numbers needed to satisfy all the people who want dogs for agility, flyball. freestyle, whatever your pleasure. what then?

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Dear Doggers,

It seems curious that over the years I've heard many dog showers tell me how their "herding dog" could work stock "if only, if only . . ."

I cannot recall ever hearing a sheepdogger say that his/her dog could win a dog show if only. Apparently dog shows are much more difficult than stockwork.

 

Donald McCaig

Sure it is! You try shortening your dogs legs by 10%, and adding muscle mass only to the front end. Don't forget the daily conditioner and blow dryer!
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Well, even in MY dreams all the sport people are not going to see the light all at once and seek working-bred pups. If they did, you're right that the demand would exceed the current supply. But I do know good working breeders who would breed more litters if they had good placements for more pups. They would like to try more different crosses, for example, but they'd only want one or two pups from the litter, and could be sure of maybe one or two additional working homes, and so they decide not to go ahead with the breeding. If they saw demand from good sport homes as well as working homes, I think they would go ahead and breed more. At the same time, though, there are livestock operations that could benefit from the use of good working dogs and are not currently using them, and if some of them became convinced of that and sought to buy a pup, they would contribute to an increase in demand in the short run, although in the long run they might increase the supply.

 

So it's hard to predict how it would play out. But I do feel strongly that the higher the proportion of border collies bred for work compared to those bred for other things, the better for the gene pool, and hence for the breed.

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My dog comes from two unregistered working farm dogs. Most of the litter was sold to farms for eventual sheep or cattle work. My dog excels at flyball and is about novice ready in agility. He is learning herding as a side activity as time permits. I would say he is calmer and more focused around sheep than in an agility ring. He is very fast and sensitive to my direction and motion, almost to a fault in agility. He handles commands and corrections in stride out in the field. I have no doubt he will make a fine agility dog in due time.

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I have encountered a breeder tell me that his dogs were too good for me. He wasn't a top breeder.

So there ARE breeders of working dogs who won't sell to people who don't trial.

I can understand, if someone hears that more than once, that he will go to a non working breeder because he wants a border collie. So there are people who are less than welcoming to people who don't fit their idea of what their puppies should do.

It's their prerogative but I can see them being turned off and turning to whatever resource they can find.

 

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Thank you. No it didn't. I got two unregistered ranch dogs whose owners are simply working rancher's. They've never heard of dog politics and their dogs work day in and day out. There are many people working who don't trial or don't go online.

I took a gamble and for my purposes I am doing fine. But I can see someone less b1tchy than me getting run off and going for the first dog they can find, regardless of registry.

It's sad what happens when people ask the "wrong" question or make the "wrong" comment.

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Now what if I am interested in doing agility, obedience, etc. I mean if I were to get a BC I would make plans for the BC to herd, but I don't have personal sheep of my own, so I don't "need" a BC to actually herd for me. I still do not see why BC's bred for herding are better than bred for sports. What if some people want a BC that is better at agility rather than herding>

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Sigh. ^^^^

Like I said in my original post I do not know much about choosing a good breeder, I turned to this forum for advice and help, but I still don't quite understand. I have gotten some good advice, but for the most part all I am reading is how sport bred dogs are not good or are not "real" BC's and herding bred dogs are good... but... WHY? I just need someone to better elaborate for me. I am not as experienced as all of you in this field, so pardon me if I don't quite understand your reasonings.

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BCLover2000, obviously you know that Border Collies are distinct from other types of dogs. It's more than that they are fast, smart, and athletic - a lot of different types of dogs share those qualities. But there is something different about a Border Collie. One thing I love to do at dog sport events is look at the Border Collies. I love to watch them and enjoy seeing the way they are and the way they interact with their environment. While I might think a Corgi is cute or an Aussie is comical or a Lab is fun, the Border Collies are the ones that I watch with a huge smile . . . they are different.

 

If that resonates with you, take a second to think about how they became what they are. It wasn't through people trying to develop an excellent sport partner, but through people developing a dog who would work a certain way on sheep.


Does that make sense?

 

Now, it might stand to reason that if you take any two Border Collies and breed them, the offspring will be pretty much the same as the generation before. But it doesn't always work that way. Suppose a sport breeder is trying to get the fastest Border Collie possible. By making speed the goal, some of the traits that the dog would need to be an effective worker on stock will likely be lost. And that might not seem to be important if you aren't going to work your dog on sheep, but even when you go to do something like Agility, the Border Collie that you are taking into the sport isn't quite the same as it would be if it still had those traits.

 

And over the generations, the overall traits of the dogs being bred are going to start to be even more and more different.

 

I've tried to put that in very plain talk. Does it make sense?

 

What is being said is that if you want to do Agility (or whatever) with a Border Collie that really is the most a Border Collie can be, then that Border Collie needs to have been bred with the ability to work having been taken into serious consideration in the breeding. (Even the main consideration, actually)

 

After all, don't you want the qualities that set these dogs apart to still be part of the overall "package" in your Agility dog?

 

I hope that makes sense.

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