BC Novice Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I am new to the BC world and have made some mistakes in purchasing pups. I purchased a ABCA registered border collie form a breeder last year. I was told by the breeder that they went into the barn one day and heard puppies under the barn floor. A few days later they noise stopped and they assumed whoever had the puppies (later they knew but said the bitch never showed she was pregnant) had left the puppies to die. Weeks later a pup, the one I purchased, came out 'as strong as a horse' per the breeder, The breeder said she couldn't be sure about the day the pup was born and was 99% sure who the dad was. The breeder has many dogs and they are all kept together, The breeder says he tries to separate them when one comes in heat. No DNA was ever done on my pup. She did offer to sell me the pup without papers since she wasn't sure, but I wanted papers. Now I have them but don't think they are valid...just guesses. Recently the breeder had 4 more litters. When the pups were born the breeder had to do DNA on one litter because the pups had smooth coats and the sire she thought it was never produces medium coats. I have 4 pups from this breeder now and I am not sure of anything now. After this I am now concerned the pedigree on my dogs papers isn't valid. It may be but there are no real records. I saved all the text messages from the breeder where everything I have said is documented. What if anything do I do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I'm glad to welcome you to a good resource here but forgive me for being blunt - with all the "red flags" you note about this breeder (who seems supremely irresponsible in so many ways), how come you seem to be going back time after time for another pup? You are worried about the pedigree on your dogs' papers? It seems you should be much more worried about purchasing (or otherwise obtaining) pups from a breeder who apparently doesn't believe in being a responsible breeder. "What, if anything, do you do?" Take the responsibility to not purchase pups from a breeder like this. And, I'm surely hoping, don't be a breeder yourself, particularly with dogs whose background is absolutely suspect. Have you read the "Read This First" at the top of the page? If you haven't, please do. It will explain a lot about the philosophy of this board. I hope others will chime in with good advice but I am just aghast that anyone would produce pups in such a slapdash manner, and that someone would be inclined to buy pups from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Novice Posted February 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I purposely made my name BC Novice for that reason. Same reason my first sentence was admitting the mistakes I made. No, I would never breed. I have no interest in it and from everything I have read and now know, I only want this wonderful breed to do well with good breeding. I would also want to make sure this breeder doesn't keep doing this. Thus my question. What can I do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 If this breeder is registering litters with ABCA and you have well-founded reasons for feeling that the registrations are false (the breeder has admitted not knowing who bred which bitch, for instance, but is submitting litter registration that indicates a certain sire for a litter, and it may not be true), then you might want to contact ABCA about your concerns. ABCA is a registry that takes seriously allegations of falsification of registration papers. Sorry if I misunderstood your question with regards of what you could do. I am grateful for your feelings concerning breeding. Too often we hear from people who know little if anything about the dogs but are all about wanting to breed theirs. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Novice Posted February 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 No problem Sue. I get it and admire your tenacity in protecting the breed from people like me, who have no business breeding. :-) I wish I would have read the 'read me first' before I purchased the pups. I made my purchases on the fact they had some imported lines with a fancy pedigree. They have no accomplishments of their own. I love the pups and am doing everything I can with them. Hopefully one of them, really does have some good herding instinct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I agree. Contact ABCA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 What ages are your dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 DNA all the pups you have and then go to ABCA if you can prove parentage is incorrect. Also, give them, ABCA, all the documents you have wrt the breeders claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Novice Posted February 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 The youngest is just 14 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I don't know if you might want to share the name of the breeder here as a caveat to anyone else who might read these boards and might be considering purchasing from this same individual. Of course, I fully understand if you would prefer to not name names here, too. I, like you, have no business breeding but there are too many people who don't have a clue but as long as they have a bitch or a dog, they are eager to produce pups for whatever reason they have (miracle of birth, my dog is the greatest, everyone wants a pup, thinking they can make money, my dog is a rare color, etc.). When you look at it, just about any Border Collie in this country (barring those that are strictly show-bred for several generations) will have some famous and accomplished dogs somewhere in their pedigree, particularly if a person is willing to look far back enough. As you say, this breeder has no accomplishments of his/her own with regards to his/her own dogs. I'm grateful you are providing them with a good home and environment. Hopefully, you will have one that will fulfill your hopes as a working dog, and that they will all be good dogs for you. I don't know what your situation is but if and when you are prepared to ask about potential mentors/trainers/clinicians, this is a good place to ask. A novice person, particularly with untrained dogs, will benefit tremendously from a good mentor/trainer/clinician. No problem Sue. I get it and admire your tenacity in protecting the breed from people like me, who have no business breeding. :-) I wish I would have read the 'read me first' before I purchased the pups. I made my purchases on the fact they had some imported lines with a fancy pedigree. They have no accomplishments of their own. I love the pups and am doing everything I can with them. Hopefully one of them, really does have some good herding instinct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madrose124 Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 If this breeder is registering litters with ABCA and you have well-founded reasons for feeling that the registrations are false (the breeder has admitted not knowing who bred which bitch, for instance, but is submitting litter registration that indicates a certain sire for a litter, and it may not be true), then you might want to contact ABCA about your concerns. ABCA is a registry that takes seriously allegations of falsification of registration papers. Sorry if I misunderstood your question with regards of what you could do. I am grateful for your feelings concerning breeding. Too often we hear from people who know little if anything about the dogs but are all about wanting to breed theirs. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions. This. They will ban breeders specifically because they falsify registration, and have no way to determine who the parents are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Agree 100%. Contact the ABCA and let them know about the situation. PS, did I read that correctly that you have 4 puppies under the age of 14 weeks? If so, place 3 of them. You don't want to deal with littermate syndrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Novice Posted February 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I have emailed the ABCA and included screen shots from the text messages from the breeder. Everything I said in this post is documented in the breeders own words in texts )not positive who the sire is, not sure when the pup was born etc). We shall see if they care and do anything. No I don't have littermates or 4 of his pups 14 weeks from this breeder. Liz, check your email please. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Novice Posted February 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 As I said I included in my letter to the ABCA screen shots of texts from the breeder where he says he is not 100% positive who the sire is or the DOB of the pups. The ABCA wrote me back: I am sorry to learn of your problems. ABCA is not in control of the situation you describe. You chose this person to continue to do business with. I hope you can work it out perhaps with the use of your attorney. Thank you for your inquiry, Debbie Bailey American Border Collie Association www.americanbordercollie.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 That makes me wonder if the part about registration fraud was not obvious to ABCA. I would want to email them back and ask directly if they are not concerned about registration fraud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Novice Posted February 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I did: I don't think you understand. I sent you screen shots of text messages from the breeder where he clearly says he is not 100% sure of the pups DOB or the sire and was thinking about selling the pup unregistered for that reason. But he sold the pup registered anyway and guessed the DOB and sire. Those screen shots are proof positive that he put information down on the registration papers that were guesses. Per your rules, that is clearly falsifying information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJSwede Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 ...not to mention that it appears this breeder was hearing noises from under a barn floor and did nothing to check on the health of puppies or bitch and basically left the puppies for dead. Doesn't sound like a humane and responsible breeding to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Did you get papers yet? And if so, from which registry. If the pups are not yet papered nothing has been done wrong as far as the registry is concerned, yet. Sounds like you agreed to take the pup knowing that the breeder didn't know for certain, that puts you on thin ice when it comes to be a participant, would be different if you were lead to believe all along that he knew that birth date and parents and then later after you had the pup found out that he didn't know the birth date or the father.Above I thought you said that the breeder did DNA test to prove parentage on a previous litter, which he/she could do again to be certain that the pups get the right papers. Or the breeder could elect to sell all unregistered, which again the registry would have no grounds to take action on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Novice Posted February 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 One of the pups had hair loss on it's tail. He took it to his 'country vet' and was told to put iodine on it. When I got it I fiund gunk in it's ears. Took it to the vet and he put the gunk under the microscope. Ear mites and that's what the loss of hair form from. Ear mite mange. I had to treat all 5 dogs, including my 4 others not from him. He sold the pup ABCA registered. I sent actual screen shots to the ABCA. Now they say they are investigating. He did DNA on another litter becuz when the pups were born they didn't look like he thought they should from the sire he thought the dam was bred to. DNA confirmed it was not the breeding he thought it was. I now wonder if anything he says is true. Yes I have the ABCA papers. Here are his text messages on this, my notes in red I been giving some thought on doing DNA, it needs to be done before she Leaves, be hard to do DNA with parents here and her there This clearly states the breeder is not certain of the sire if he wants to do DNA And I don’t have a rock solid birthday on her. I have a shop in my barn that the kennels back up to and they have some holes in the kennels where they go through to get under the floor and where it has been so hot I let them go because it is so cool under there. I went to feed one evening and heard pups under the floor but couldn’t find them and that was the last time I heard them. Ann was out playing with the rest of the dogs so I thought she let them die. And it went 2 weeks or more and I found them. Their eyes were open and they were healthy as horses. That’s the main reason I was selling not registered. I am 99% sure who the sire is, but there is always that 1% chance. Brock don’t get with my other dogs so I know she isn’t inbred. Here the breeder admits he was going to sell unregistered because he is not sure who the sire is. FYI, all his dogs, over 18 of them, run together all day. From what he has told me, he puts one up if he thinks it is in heat. The breeder sold the pup registered and guessed at the sire by the looks of the pups. He did not even know the Dam was pregnant. So he did not witness nor plan the breeding. Brock is another stud he has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I don't see where he says he is selling the pups as registered based on those messages, quite the contrary assuming that the second message was the first you received and the DNA was a follow up, reading it sounds like he was planning on unregistered from the get go, what made him bring up the DNA option? Anyway, without the correspondence from you it's hard to judge the context of those responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Novice Posted February 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I have the papers. It was a phone conversation. He did sell the pup as ABCA registered and guessed at the DOB and sire. I sent the papers to the ABCA too. He later decided to sell it as registered because he thought she was a good pup and 99% sure who the sire was with NO DNA. For $500 more then unregistered price, which I paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 then I would say dna test kits need to be sent out to verify parentage and you wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Novice Posted February 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 This is my take, and I am admittedly a novice and know little.His text messages clearly state he did not know the pups DOB or was 100% sure of the sire. But he sold it registered and filled in his best guess on the ABCA papers. Per what i saw in the ABCA rules that is clearly now acceptable. A 'guess' on the paperwork is falsification. And breeding in such a way that you don't even know the dam was pregnant and who the sire is? It seems pretty clear cut to me, Correct me if I am wrong. The ABCA Board has adopted the following rules for dealing with registration violations: Any member who submits a false statement or falsified document to the Association, who violates the By-Laws or Rules of the Association, who fails to cooperate in the investigation of a complaint by the Association, who assists another to circumvent disciplinary sanctions imposed by the Association, or whose practices in the breeding of Border Collies are such as to otherwise impair the reliability of the records of the Association, shall be subject to discipline by the Association, including censure, loss of all registration/certification privileges, and suspension or expulsion from membership. Any attempt to assist another to circumvent disciplinary sanctions, if done by a non-member, shall be grounds for denial of membership, and for declining to process any registration or transfer paperwork submitted by or on behalf of that non-member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I am trying to make sense of this posting. If I am understanding her correctly, the OP says that this breeder told her that he or she (the OP uses both pronouns) wanted to sell the pups without papers because s/he was not sure who the sire was. But the OP "wanted papers," so the breeder furnished them. "Now" the OP has become concerned that they might not be correct. In the meantime, the OP bought three more puppies from this breeder. She says that she made these mistakes because she is a novice with BCs. It is hard for me to understand how not having previous experience with border collies explains the OP's insisting on papers when the breeder supposedly said he didn't know who the sire was, and then buying three more pups from this breeder, and THEN realizing that the pedigree reported to the ABCA might be incorrect. I will be very frank and say that I do not believe in the genuineness of this OP. I think it odd that she would post, on being advised to contact ABCA, "We shall see if they care and do anything." I think her postings sound contrived. Having bought four (4) pups from a breeder she considered dishonest and disreputable, she posts, "No, I would never breed. I have no interest in it and from everything I have read and now know, I only want this wonderful breed to do well with good breeding," but writes to the ABCA that she "has breeding rights with these pups," and is therefore concerned that "she will never be able to breed in good conscience." She posts a response from ABCA to her original post that sounds dismissive, but doesn't post Debbie's response to her subsequent email: "You are right, I don’t understand. I received an email and some abbreviated texts from you. Ma’am I can only read bits and pieces of what you sent and what you are trying to tell me. Please explain yourself more clearly. I would not continue to ask you for the information if I understood. I need the dog and the breeder name. Are you the owner of record?" However, even though I am dubious about the genuineness of this thread, the ABCA does take allegations of false statements by breeders seriously, and will be investigating this complaint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Eileen, if there any consequence to the person filing the complaint if it is discovered that they encouraged the breeder to submit the paperwork into ABCA fully aware of the situation that they now no longer feel is acceptable to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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