Teaching Direction At Home (or save it for the pasture?)

[Camden's Mom]

Camden takes left and right direction very well from a distance. I will stand in a field, with a ball, and send him out with a "go!" (he picks how far he goes, as I can't figure out a way to be in control of that). He will then turn to face me. From a distance (probably the longest we've done is about 100 yards) I can point the direction I want him to run and he will go that way. He's gotten this down to almost precisely lining up with where my finger is pointing.

 

I'm thinking of using this game to train "Come Bye" (we'll have to call it something else, "come" is our recall... oops :/ ) and "Away". I'm curious if this would be a good idea or counterproductive teaching him these commands without sheep around. Also, is pointing the dog in a direction considered a lazy shortcut (as I understand it you normally want to use the stick to apply pressure to show the dog which way to go). Any thoughts? Feel free to let me know if this is a terrible idea... <

[Sue R]

One potential problem I see with this (other than the general fact that what you teach off stock is often totally forgotten when initially on stock) is that the dog should work *off* your pressure - so, an arm held out to the right should really cause the dog (say he/she is on the other side of the sheep which are between the two of you) to move to the left, not the right.

 

That said, our deaf dog (who has done a little recreational agility) does very little stockwork but when she does, she tends to go where I point because pointing is a tool we use in everyday life since she can no longer hear.

 

One issue I think many people run into when they try to work stock as well as do agility is that in general, in agility, the dog takes his/her directional cues from you and heads in the direction in which you are heading (you "aim" for the tunnel and the dog aims for the tunnel) at least in the earlier stages of training.

 

I am sure that people with way more experience and know-how will give you better thoughts on this.

 

PS - Polly Matzinger, never known to be a conformist, is an Open handler who has done some training of directions on her dogs using lawn furniture and other unconventional approaches. It seems to work for her.

 

PPS - And, yes, I'd think to save it for the pasture. Jack Knox often says that what a dog needs to know when going to stock for the first time is his/her name; a recall; and how to take a correction.

[Liz P]

The directions are in relation to the sheep, so if you don't have sheep your dog won't have a point of reference. Leave that for lesson time.

[Gloria Atwater]

I personally think you should not mix play directions and sheep directions. If you're pointing where you want him to go and say "go bye," that's the exact opposite of what he should do on sheep. With sheep, you want him to move off your pressure and body position, not with it. You step or gesture one way, he goes the opposite way.

Plus, as Sue pointed out, the first time your dog turns on to sheep, he's going to forget pretty much everything you've ever taught him, possibly including his name. I'm sure it can be done, but I don't see the point. Sheep work is not obedience training. You use the sheep to teach him his directions and if you do it right, he's not really aware he's being taught, he just hears you give a name to the actions he's already doing. After all, the first thing a dog learns on sheep probably isn't his flanks, it will be his stop and call off.

Enjoy playing with him, but my advice is to not confuse him and don't risk getting him used to looking at you while you point or otherwise using your hands to tell him where to go. He shouldn't be watching your hands, he should watch his sheep. My two cents, of course!
Best regards,

Gloria

[Gloria Atwater]

P.S.
I don't use the stick to apply pressure when sending a dog the direction I want him to go. I mainly step away from the direction I want him to go and leave the correct direction open for his use. The stick may be used to influence him if I want him to stop or flank the other way, but I don't like to use it as pressure any more than I would use my own body positioning.

~ Gloria

[Camden's Mom]

Hmm... good food for thought. For whatever it's worth, when Camden was first on sheep in a small pen he got really freaked out about the stick (i.e. pressure). My trainer suggested I teach him that pressure is not necessarily a bad thing, just a direction to be taken. I purchased a "ghetto crook" (a golf club with the head sawed off ) and worked with him at home to understand that he needs to move *away* from the pressure and also that he need not fear it. It worked very, very well and we saw dramatic improvement as he began to understand that he needed to move away from the stick.

 

I was thinking I could bring my "ghetto crook" with me for this directional game and, while I point with my empty hand, use the stick in the other to re-inforce the idea of moving away from the pressure. But from what you all have said, this might all be counter productive. I'll just hold off, for now, until we have our next lesson (hopefully in the Spring... fingers crossed).

 

I guess I was just looking for training "games" I could do with him between now and then that would help him be stronger, more confident and better equipped for his next lesson on sheep.

 

Thanks everyone, i appreciate the advice!

[sjones]

I echo what everyone else has said. A working dog should be busy reading their sheep and ready to respond to what the sheep are/will be doing, not watching for your next hand signal. So trying to teach him direction off sheep is not worth the effort.

To fill in the time until your next lesson, how about teaching him some fun tricks or doing som basic obedience.

 

Samantha

[juliepoudrier]

Beware of teaching your dog to always move away from the stick. In practice the stick/crook is used to affect the sheep and if your dog always moves away from a waving stick then you will have trouble at tasks like shedding and penning when you might be waving your stick to affect the sheep while wanting your dog to hold the pressure on his side.

 

That's not to say you can't wave a stick at your dog when training and expect it to move off (I have and will), but just remember there will be times when you're moving your crook and you don't want the dog to move away from it.

 

J.

[Gloria Atwater]

What Julie said.

For example, if you have to use the crook to influence the sheep when penning, you may need the dog to move towards the stick to help pen the sheep, not automatically bend away from it. So, I'd say carry the stick with you if he's over reactive to it, (perhaps use it as a walking stick) and just let it be part of his world. But be careful of using it on him much.

That's another reason to be careful of doing too much "dry work" without sheep. If you're not skilled at handling a dog on sheep, you could accidentally teach him something counter productive if you try to introduce sheep working skills away from sheep.

For now, I'd say just work on building your relationship with him, do lots of stuff, work on a little obedience, (but not too much: you don't want to teach him to look at you for cues all the time) and play games, teach tricks. You can do plenty to build a good relationship and good communications with him, without directly preparing for sheep.

Last but not least, make sure he is comfortable with everyday corrections. He has to be able to take a kindly, "Nope, not that way" from you without being upset.

Best of luck with your youngster!

~ Gloria

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

The only thing that I teach off sheep is the recall whistle.

[Camden's Mom]

That's another reason to be careful of doing too much "dry work" without sheep. If you're not skilled at handling a dog on sheep, you could accidentally teach him something counter productive if you try to introduce sheep working skills away from sheep.

 

OK, this is precisely what I was worried about. I am extremely unskilled at handling a dog on sheep and it sounds like I'd be more likely to set us back then to give us a leg up when returning to lessons.

 

We currently do daily training sessions which mostly consist of stupid pet tricks. I actually had a guy the other day at the park ask me if Camden was a circus dog. Oh well, the tricks are silly but they keep us engaged and working together so we'll keep at it.

 

On our walks and outings we work a lot on recalls, "instant downs" (from a distance, while moving or both) and impulse control games. We'll just keep plugging ahead with more of the same for now and I'll try to be a bit more patient waiting for this "snow" (more like packed ice, ugh) to melt.

[Smalahundur]

The only thing that I teach off sheep is the recall whistle.

This intrigues me. I follow the advice of not starting a dog too soon on sheep, ten months, a year old or so.

That is an awful long time not teaching anything but a recall.

[Sue R]

Or maybe is that really that, "The only thing I teach off sheep, that has direct relevance to and is required for working sheep, is the recall"? The way Jack Knox puts it is that the only things your dog needs to know is his/her name, a recall, and how to take a correction does not mean that your dog is not learning other things but that these are the essentials that will be needed when going to sheep.

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

@Sue R

Yes, you were clearer than I was.

Of stock related commands, the only one I teach off stock is recall. Simply because if I'm in the woods, a whistle will carry better than my voice, or if I'm anywhere that the dog's might be far.

I teach that'll do on day one, first meal, running backwards with the bowl in my hand saying that'll do. I never teach a come as a recall. So as soon as I can I start using my recall whistle.

[Smalahundur]

Okay, that makes sense, I thought it was a bit unlikely....

 

On a related note, I do teach my dog a "down" off stock (which I would consider a stock related command). I assume most people do.

 

I have no trouble using "come" as a recall (actually the dutch version that sounds the same, kom) because I use icelandic direction commands "vinstri" for away to me, and "hægri" for come bye.

Oh, and just to make things not too confusing I use the english command for down....

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

Ah yes down.

But I've found that a down on stock is almost a whole different command on stock. Sometimes they fight me on it, on stock.

Probably the reason I don't trial!

[Camden's Mom]

Beware of teaching your dog to always move away from the stick. In practice the stick/crook is used to affect the sheep and if your dog always moves away from a waving stick then you will have trouble at tasks like shedding and penning when you might be waving your stick to affect the sheep while wanting your dog to hold the pressure on his side.

 

That's not to say you can't wave a stick at your dog when training and expect it to move off (I have and will), but just remember there will be times when you're moving your crook and you don't want the dog to move away from it.

 

J.

Thanks Julie!!! i didn't realize this... but it's very good to know!

 

I only did this "move off of the stick" work at home for a few weeks, pretty much until he grasped the idea that pressure was a direction (and *sometimes* a correction) but that didn't mean he had to shut down or be afraid. Once he gained some confidence and understanding of this my instructor suggested I didn't need to do that particular "homework" anymore. I'm guessing she knew it could eventually become counter-productive.

 

However, I will admit my impression was the dog always moves off the stick, and I appreciate the knowledge that that it is not always the case. Lordy, I have a lot to learn... Thanks very much for that tidbit!!