sandysfarm Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I'm with G. Festerling on this one.I didn't read Sandysfarm's post as directed at anyone in particular. And I think she (?) has a point. If people have no respect for what it takes to BE something, whatever that something is, then all those somethings are demeaned. That said, I don't run around seeking opportunities to correct the general public's misconceptions. In my experience that's a lot like tilting at windmills. But if a border collie owner comes here and talks about the dog "herding the kids" I'll say something. Why? Because I assume, sometimes wrongly, that someone who has joined this forum is truly seeking to understand the nature of border collies. Also, since so many are given up due to "behavior problems" it makes sense to me to not allow folks to dismiss correctable behaviors as something that is hard wired in the dog (i.e., herding) when doing so means that yet another dog might find itself in trouble. <--Note that these last comments aren't directed at anyone posting to this thread, so no offense intended to anyone. J. 1. whew 2. I only say pieces or all of what I wrote when I think it's correct to do so and without malice. Which is to say, when a client's flights of fantasy about themselves carry them right into parity with the wo/man whose lifeblood is dog and livestock. If that is militant, well ok, but I meant it as insisting on a sort of reverence. I'm just a dog trainer. I spend most of my time trying to separate fact from fiction among enthusiastic new owners who think that the name of their breed entitles them to the glory of their breed = so much bull***t I hear you cannot believe. Little to no espect for work, time spent, education. I truly did not mean to lump anyone here together with that. I got here looking for someone to help me distinguish frightened collie behaviour from collie behaviour...because I didn't know. I was handed a black and white b c by an acquaintance who knew that she was loose in a forested area up north by herself...for 2 years. He got a rope around her neck, tossed her in the back of his car and drove her south to me without so much as a 5 minute warning. Except he did tell me she'd been bait for local dog fighting, she'd had a litter that died somewhere, her eye had been pulled out when she didn't make it away from a pair of males fast enough and he thought she probably had a few issues...which was a good guess So I kept her because I was in love before he finished the story. She screamed if I leashed her outside, she was dog-hell on a leash, she wouldn't go into the fenced garden to pee at all-ever and it goes on and on. It dawned on me that before I could do anything much I needed to get to a b c board and do nothing but read so I could start to separate out degrees of behaviour - not much point trying to talk her out of something that she's blueprinted to do because I'm dumb to it. What I found amazes me. You-all are so aware and quick to help each other and first timers but I like that there's backbone here borne of experience and I was speaking to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 ^^ Just goes to show how badly our reading sometimes goes awry. I read Sandysfarm's original post as emphatic and perhaps terse, but not aggressive in it's intent, nor addressed to anyone specifically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJSwede Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I've been thinking while I was shoveling snow. Yeah, I think I misinterpreted Sandysfarm's post to be a bash on beginners/pet dog owners in general when it was a bash on certain people who think they and their dogs are the best stock worker material on the planet. I get it now. I think I can exclude myself from that group as I have a little bit of dog experience (tracking/searching/obedience with Boxers) and have spent a lot of time around sheep (my parents bought a farm when I was a young adult). That said, I'm smart enough to understand what works and what doesn't. As for our own attempts at "herding", I think we know very well that we're not going to reach the top echelon, nor do we think that our random rescue dog is the perfect material to work with. But we're having fun, learning truckloads of new things and nobody gets hurt. Not sure there's anything wrong with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysfarm Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Terse, yes, I agree. But not mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysfarm Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I've been thinking while I was shoveling snow. Yeah, I think I misinterpreted Sandysfarm's post to be a bash on beginners/pet dog owners in general when it was a bash on certain people who think they and their dogs are the best stock worker material on the planet. I get it now. I think I can exclude myself from that group as I have a little bit of dog experience (tracking/searching/obedience with Boxers) and have spent a lot of time around sheep (my parents bought a farm when I was a young adult). That said, I'm smart enough to understand what works and what doesn't. As for our own attempts at "herding", I think we know very well that we're not going to reach the top echelon, nor do we think that our random rescue dog is the perfect material to work with. But we're having fun, learning truckloads of new things and nobody gets hurt. Not sure there's anything wrong with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysfarm Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I've been thinking while I was shoveling snow. Yeah, I think I misinterpreted Sandysfarm's post to be a bash on beginners/pet dog owners in general when it was a bash on certain people who think they and their dogs are the best stock worker material on the planet. I get it now. I think I can exclude myself from that group as I have a little bit of dog experience (tracking/searching/obedience with Boxers) and have spent a lot of time around sheep (my parents bought a farm when I was a young adult). That said, I'm smart enough to understand what works and what doesn't. As for our own attempts at "herding", I think we know very well that we're not going to reach the top echelon, nor do we think that our random rescue dog is the perfect material to work with. But we're having fun, learning truckloads of new things and nobody gets hurt. Not sure there's anything wrong with that. Ha! You don't need to have ANY experience to escape me; you just need to understand there's a difference - which clearly you do. I came here because I'm not breed-competent yet either! I totally respect you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 . I spend most of my time trying to separate fact from fiction among enthusiastic new owners who think that the name of their breed entitles them to the glory of their breed = so much bull***t I hear you cannot believe. Little to no espect for work, time spent, education. I truly did not mean to lump anyone here together with that. I can't seem to figure out how to assign the quote....but it was out of Sandyfarms last post. IT IS about respect. I go to people I respect for advice. A base amount is given to any human being. But the rest...has to be earned. That is how I determine who I listen to, follow and sometimes, admire. And on the flip side...I hope that is why my students and clients pick me as well. Having said that, there are people that I know have worked hard and are super at their choosen field of expertise and I will admire them for that but still not like what or how they do things....fair enough! I still have to respect their work, their dedication, their education. How can I expect it from them, if I don't give it? I am tired of hearing a lot of junk. But, I better listen as it educates me as well. But I am tired of the whole "I own a Border Collie, I am great and my dog is great because we all know Border Collies are great so the owner has to be smarter than the average by default as well!!!!" "I own a Border Collie so now you better do right by MY breed!" The sense of entitlement seems to be unique to all breeds! Yes, and not only dogs but horses, cars, bla, bla, bla! The passion that comes with falling in love with a specific breed, sport, whatever is crucial. I listened to an interview with the great Pete Seger in which he repeated and rephrased the following more than once: "Participation is the key to the human future!" Believing in a cause, educating people about it, informing them of the challenges, offering help and doing small things to make them better is to me crucial. It is a responsibility. Having said that, 99.9% of the time when things go haywire it is a matter of stupid human miscommunication. I run into it myself. My personality does not jive with everyone. For some I am too intense and for others not enough. So I can't help everyone. But I am sure going to try to get my point across. And I will admit, it is important to me that I try not to alienate them right off the bat...if they run too fast and too far...it is hard to even try to get the message out. Anyway, just my two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Terse, yes, I agree. But not mean. Well, "terse" means simply brief, using few words. It doesn't imply tone, though sadly many people tend to use (and read or hear) it incorrectly that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Not to be like some of the folks on copyediting-L, but some dictionary definitions do mention things along the lines of "curt" or "abrupt to the point of being considered rude." Evolution of meamings makes for some very heated discussions on that list. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Oh, I'm sure . . . I'd probably have a lot of fun on a list like that. I was taking meanings such as that into consideration, though, when I wrote what I did. I still consider it different from being "mean" or aggressive. And I think the terseness of the post in question is what may have given rise to some people reading it as offensive. But it's all open to interpretation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted February 4, 2014 Report Share Posted February 4, 2014 As for our own attempts at "herding", I think we know very well that we're not going to reach the top echelon, nor do we think that our random rescue dog is the perfect material to work with. But we're having fun, learning truckloads of new things and nobody gets hurt. Not sure there's anything wrong with that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, IMO. I hope you don't let anyone convince you otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 4, 2014 Report Share Posted February 4, 2014 My first trial dog was a rescue. No, we didn't make it to the top echelon (open), but I learned so much from her and my second trial dog, who was also a rescue of sorts. Those two dogs helped shape me into the handler I am today, and it's because of them that I got the best compliment I have ever reveived from a judge (IMO). That judge, after a run that went very wrong, through no fault of me or my dog, though we did manage to salvage it, told me that he was completely impressed by the quiet calm I exhibited under pressure (the run in question occurred during a run off for first place) and how that enabled us to get things back under control. It was those two rescues who helped mold me into that calm, quiet handler. So even if your dog isn't a world beater, she can still teach you (your wife) invaluable lessons about handling a dog and working stock. Lessons of a lifetime. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted February 4, 2014 Report Share Posted February 4, 2014 Chirping in, Gláma is a (sort of) rescue. My first real stockdog. Yup trialed once, "not in the top echelon" would be an, ehm, understatement. But she is (in my totally unbiased opinion) a great farm dog, and taught me a lot about working stock with help of a dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJSwede Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 Of course, the difference between us may be that you seem to have a much higher opinion of the human species than I do, and are willing to think the best while it's the utter stupidity of the species that tends to jump out at me first. I had to revisit this post and admit you're right. Humans are a lot dumber around dogs than I thought. I was searching for something completely different when I came across this: Extra moron-points for "look, he's smiling" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 Well, the only good thing about that video is that when that dog bites....any idiot can see why! If they are surprised, they are dumber than it looks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysfarm Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 wow - look at the size of that dog's pupils; it makes my stomach hurt to watch him trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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