Smalahundur Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 I had the conversation just acouple day ago about the dog not being confused and thinking that the people, the cars, the toys, and the other pets in the house were sheep. They could not understand the simple concept that the dog can and should and probably does know the difference between the animals that can and should be herded and everything else that moves. Exactly, That point always baffles me too. How simple do they think a dog is..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Fortunately, DH did not discount me for having green eyes instead of some other color when we first met... I hardly dare to ask about your conformation.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 LMAO!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Humm, have they changed the Beagle standard now? Lemon and White used to be an acceptable color. I can't keep up. (not that I want to...) Thanks. One of the dogs this man had at his presentation at the local AKC affiliate club was the most lovely little Beagle I've ever met - quiet, polite, cute as a button. But not a worthy dog, he pointed out, because his color was not right - rather lemony instead of the proper brown. Fortunately, DH did not discount me for having green eyes instead of some other color when we first met... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLloydJones Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Oh, really simple. I've had people respond to my calling my dog's name to get her attention by saying, "Oh look! She knows her name!I refer to this as the "Chester" syndrome, after a choclate lab, whose name was, apparently Chester. At least that was what the young lady at the dog park kept on calling -- in vain -- to attract the attention of the dog. I think I have mentioned this before, but one of the rules at the dog parks in our town is that "dogs are under voice control". Big joke. Very few of the dogs there will respond to their name being called by their owner. Anything more than actually looking up when their name is called is deemed to be black magic by most people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 It was good then but it sure isn't now. I hardly dare to ask about your conformation.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 I may be getting my colors mixed up, sorry - whatever it was, a lovely, well-tempered dog was not "good enough" because his color wasn't quite "right" for success in the show ring. Humm, have they changed the Beagle standard now? Lemon and White used to be an acceptable color. I can't keep up. (not that I want to...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 I had the conversation just acouple day ago about the dog not being confused and thinking that the people, the cars, the toys, and the other pets in the house were sheep. They could not understand the simple concept that the dog can and should and probably does know the difference between the animals that can and should be herded and everything else that moves. This one always kills me, along with the one that dogs can't tell babies and children from adult humans, or the one that the big dog thinks the toy dog is puppy. How stupid do they think dogs are? Rhetorical question, of course. I'm sure they think dogs and other animals are about as stupid as I think some of these people are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 The funny thing is that not only can they tell one species from another, but they can identify individuals within a flock or herd, and understand the difference between individuals of differing ages. Dan, the dog who believes in Dental Diplomacy (or grip now, ask later) will let a tiny lamb come right up and touch noses with him - at Anna's one new lamb took quite a shine to Dan and always made a point to greet him nose-to-nose each time we went to move the flock. He and his mother often were at the tail end of the flock since he was so young. And Dan would work the little babies with pushes and shoves, not nips and grips. We once had five heifers that I used for training. Two were bottle babies (Duchess and Princess, still with us but getting on in years) and three were mother-raised. Of the three, one was the ring-leader and always looking to break for the shelter of the barn. The bottle babies would not leave us in the field as they were quite content to stay not far from me. So, when Celt worked the five, he ignored the two and concentrated on the three, particularly the trouble-maker. He knew each of those heifers, just like he knew the different personalities of the adult cows, which needed more of a push, which needed less; which was more aggressive and which was more passive. He didn't just know that by watching them each time worked them - he remembered each of them as an individual. So, for animals this smart, how could anyone think they couldn't tell a child from a sheep, or a car or a bicycle from livestock? They are interested in motion and controlling movement so they may be focusing on the child, the sheep, or the car or bicycle, but they sure aren't mistaking one for the other... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJSwede Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 I was "reprimanded" on this board a while ago for saying something about my dog "herding" other dogs and "treating them like sheep". Let me make one thing clear, I may not own a farm or do professional stock work and I'm very new to this breed, but I'm not stupid enough to think that my dog believes that cars, joggers and children are sheep. Nor do I think most "commoners" (as opposed to stock dog nobility) are that stupid. My dog can recognize every dog in the neighborhood and knows where they live. She can also identify the breed of unfamiliar dogs (as in "collie dog- friend, retriever or labradoodle - must be get a good barking). Of course no one who's ever seen a dog do those things will ever be stupid enough to think a bicycle is a sheep. When I was talking about my dog "herding" another dog, I simply meant that her motion control instincts kick in and her behavior in some ways resembles some of the behavior a dog who works sheep exhibits (staring, crouching etc). I know you're a nice bunch of people who want to help, but I don't see the need to bash people for using the wrong terminology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Oh, you may also not be getting them mixed up, Sue. Even when there are traits in a breed that are acceptable per AKC approved standards, fads overrule in the breed ring. But the point of your post is well taken. In the show ring, it is all about the look. I still shake my head at my own gullibility. Mr. McCaig really nailed it when he compared acceptance of the 'standard' to the unquestioning acceptance of dogma. That resonated with me because I could identify myself in it. I may be getting my colors mixed up, sorry - whatever it was, a lovely, well-tempered dog was not "good enough" because his color wasn't quite "right" for success in the show ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 I was "reprimanded" on this board a while ago for saying something about my dog "herding" other dogs and "treating them like sheep". Let me make one thing clear, I may not own a farm or do professional stock work and I'm very new to this breed, but I'm not stupid enough to think that my dog believes that cars, joggers and children are sheep. Nor do I think most "commoners" (as opposed to stock dog nobility) are that stupid. Mr. Swede, I'm quite willing to believe that you do indeed know the difference between real herding behavior and the herdy play that some border collies and many other dogs engage in. As to the masses, though, I'm afraid I've met far too many clueless people who'll tell me with all apparent seriousness that their dogs think the cat is a sheep or the toy is its baby or some other such nonsense. If others here have had the same experiences, and I strongly suspect they have, that may well be why some people corrected your observations. Of course, the difference between us may be that you seem to have a much higher opinion of the human species than I do, and are willing to think the best while it's the utter stupidity of the species that tends to jump out at me first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJSwede Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Of course, the difference between us may be that you seem to have a much higher opinion of the human species than I do, and are willing to think the best while it's the utter stupidity of the species that tends to jump out at me first. I don't know. I just heard about someone who refused to give her dogs rabies-vaccine because "rabies can be cured by thoroughly cleaning the wound", so you and I may be more alike than you think. There's some pretty amazing stupidity out there. But I digress... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysfarm Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 This is a conversation about respect. For me, you-all have an absolute duty, without malice and under the correct circumstance, to set pet dog owners straight as to WHAT a legitimate working dog is and WHERE it is - which is to say, it's not theirs and it's not lying in their livingroom. The world is so small now. Everyone watches youtube and they buy straight in to the visuals. Thus: "yeah, cool, I saw my Dusty on youtube! Dog was exactly the same as Dusty. Might be his cousin. He was herding sheep and he was amaaazing! Dusty doesn't do sheep but we get him tennis balls and he likes to keep the kids in line in the backyard. He'd be an amaaazing sheepherder! he already is, really. He's got papers and my husband wants him to have a litter so he knows how that feels...before we get him fixed. We're thinking we'll try showing him too. He's just as nice as the Westminster dog show ones that were on TV last time I watched." (haha who needs a Tylenol?) So there's the thing. Everyone's an expert nowadays and no one understands mastery, much less knows enough to respect it..no-one can even define it anymore. We're all the same as you, Mr Sheepdog Herder. Dogs are just dogs, we all have them, and breeds are highly recognizable - it's all born of myth. American Idol takes a kid from 0 to 60 in 3 months and demands the public treat him like a finely crafted musician because he won a popularity vote. Notice the contestants all refer to themselves as "artist" on, or soon after Day One. (Who's Maria Callas?) Everyone who can pick up a brush paints "just like the masters"...as if. Or, better, because training is unnecessary, they are "self-taught" "talented" "intuitive painters" "important" The more acceptable this pervasive rhetoric is, the more un/rescuable true mastery becomes across the board. So deciding what a stock dog is not (your pet) and insisting that people understand the difference is the only way I can see of saving the true mastery that is the working dog from being disrespected forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJSwede Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 This is a conversation about respect. For me, you-all have an absolute duty, without malice and under the correct circumstance, to set pet dog owners straight as to WHAT a legitimate working dog is and WHERE it is - which is to say, it's not theirs and it's not lying in their livingroom. Wow. Just wow. I think I need a break from this place for a while. But at least I know that as a the owner of a pet Border Collie from unknown lines (since it's a rescue), I'm an imbecile who thinks my dog is the best herder in the world because it's black and white just like some dog I saw on youtube. Just wow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Don't go NJSwede. There are many perspectives on these boards. You don't need to agree with sandysfarm to stick around and participate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 What Liz said. The post that you replied too was a bit militant in my mind, and I'm pretty outspoken. Don't go NJSwede. There are many perspectives on these boards. You don't need to agree with sandysfarm to stick around and participate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Perception is a funny thing... I did not read Sandysfarm's post as directed towards anyone in particular. But I have to say, to call it militant is a bit odd to me as well. There are plenty of responses on this thread that I would find much more insulting and degrading (if I was so inclined which I am not) than Sandysfarm's. Plus, I suppose that makes me a bit on the militant side as well then...because honestly...I often can't help but feel the same way. In my job, in observing others doing (or not doing as it happens) their jobs etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysfarm Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Wow. Just wow. I think I need a break from this place for a while. But at least I know that as a the owner of a pet Border Collie from unknown lines (since it's a rescue), I'm an imbecile who thinks my dog is the best herder in the world because it's black and white just like some dog I saw on youtube. Just wow! That's so not what I meant, or said, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Good. Then perhaps I read more into your post than you intended and, if I did, I apologize. That's so not what I meant, or said, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I'm with G. Festerling on this one.I didn't read Sandysfarm's post as directed at anyone in particular. And I think she (?) has a point. If people have no respect for what it takes to BE something, whatever that something is, then all those somethings are demeaned. That said, I don't run around seeking opportunities to correct the general public's misconceptions. In my experience that's a lot like tilting at windmills. But if a border collie owner comes here and talks about the dog "herding the kids" I'll say something. Why? Because I assume, sometimes wrongly, that someone who has joined this forum is truly seeking to understand the nature of border collies. Also, since so many are given up due to "behavior problems" it makes sense to me to not allow folks to dismiss correctable behaviors as something that is hard wired in the dog (i.e., herding) when doing so means that yet another dog might find itself in trouble. <--Note that these last comments aren't directed at anyone posting to this thread, so no offense intended to anyone. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I guess I didn't see it as aimed at anyone in particular, I just took it as meaning that I have a responsibility to set people straight - which I usually do as I have trouble keeping my mouth shut anyway - and felt it a bit strong. Obviously, I overreacted - sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJSwede Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I had a good night sleep to I'm fine again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Glad to hear it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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