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It might be an academic distinction in terms of the legal ramifications (and I agree that legally there will be little to no distinction), but the difference is important in terms of how a person will deal with the dog and the chances of dealing with it behaviorally.

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Hugging is a huge way that kids get bit by dogs. It looks like a threatening posture in dog language, restricts their movement and chance to escape, and it puts a kid's face right in the line of fire. Some dogs will tolerate it, but very few of them actively enjoy it. I would consider almost any bite that involves a hug to be a provoked bite (and not a sign of aggression).

This!

 

So many of our human displays that are affectionate (hugging, putting an arm around or over a dog, bending down, squeals of delight, etc.) are either "bad manners" in dog language, threatening behaviors in dog language, or just plain unpleasant to many dogs. And, when someone ignores (or is unaware of) a dog's warning signals, it is a bite waiting to happen.

 

We need to understand how dogs communicate, and we need to communicate clearly to them. It's not easy to learn, especially if you've done "the wrong thing" for a long time (as I have), but it can be learned and can become natural to you.

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I'd have to agree, based on what you've written about Logan, I'd think of him as a reactive dog. Here's what you wrote in the very first post: "January 8th, my granddaughter came home, Logan followed her into the washroom. When she turned around, she opened her arms to greet him and he snarled at her. She did not heed the warning, leaned down to hug him, and he bit her on the lip, breaking her tooth, and causing 5 stitches on her lip. The dog showed immediate concern."

 

Logan gave a pretty obvious warning in this situation, but when your granddaughter did not heed it Logan felt like he had no other choice to defend himself. The immediate concerned shown after the incident also makes me think this wasn't aggression, but reactivity. Of course we all know that your granddaughter meant him no harm, but he perceived her as a threat in that moment.

 

At the end of the day, even if it is "reactivity" not "aggression", Logan is willing to use his teeth. I'm thrilled that things have been getting better in the short time you've had him, but he'll probably always be a dog you have to manage carefully knowing his bite history.

 

We need to understand how dogs communicate, and we need to communicate clearly to them. It's not easy to learn, especially if you've done "the wrong thing" for a long time (as I have), but it can be learned and can become natural to you.

 

I couldn't agree more. When I started attempting to learn dog body language I felt like a whole new world was opened up to me. It's like another language I have with my dog, although I'm sure I still get a lot of it wrong. :) My BC spends a lot of time watching me and trying to figure me out and now I find myself doing the same to him.

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I think I posted about my dog before. He's fear aggressive, snd yes the label does imply something, mainly that if I do something to make him agraid, he will react aggressively. It's HUGE management issue. He's generally friendly with people, but during interactions with them I watch him very closely and always warn people not to make sudden moves like grabbing at his collar.

 

He's 15 now, and I've had him I've had him for about 14 years. There has been a lot of good stretches whete everything has gone relatively well. There has been just one severe bite (me), and I brought that on myself by doing something known to trigger a reaction.

 

That said, as Rushdoggie noted, it *is* a burden, and there have been many times when I've really wondered why keep with it. He has gotten worse aa he's aged and I have had to adjust my management of him over time. Over time he has become much less tolerant of things I used to be able to do without much worry (e.g., I used to be able to scale his teeth by hand, trim his nails, brush him out, cut out mats, etc. without trouble; all of those activities require muzzling now).

 

I have already decided that in his old age if his health takes a bad turn and requires regular handling (forcing pills or giving fluids, for exampld), I will not put either him or myself through that. He is fearful when muzzled, and I honestly feel that I have given him the best life possible. But I also live alone and move in circles of very dog savvy people, so he, me, amd they were all less at risk rhan might have been the case in other situations.

 

Thete have been many occasions when I thought of putting him down, but never could bring myself to do it. But I completely understand that choice when someone makes it.

 

Logan's mom,

I'm glad you're trying. What Logan did to your granddaughter is understandable from a dog's POV. Growling at a pack mate is also normal behavior. The best think you can do for Logan is to recognize his normal canine behaviors for what they are. Yes, he has issues, but the othwr half of the equation is the humans that live with him, and you have to be careful not to put him in situations that will cause him to react badly. Remember that growling *is* communication, and at least a growl is a warning. It's always better to have a dog who will give a warning than not....

 

I know I've repeated some of what's already been said, but as someone who has lived with and managed a fear biter for a very long time I just wanted to reiterate that they often can be managed, though it can be a burden, but also that choosing to PTS isn't a terrible thing to do. Even when my dog was much younger, my dog directive specified that in the event of mu death he was to be PTS. That would have been--and still is--the fairest option for *him*.

 

Please excuse any typps.

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I think I posted about my dog before. He's fear aggressive, snd yes the label does imply something, mainly that if I do something to make him afraid, he will react aggressively. It's HUGE management issue. He's generally friendly with people, but during interactions with them I watch him very closely and always warn people not to make sudden moves like grabbing at his collar.

 

He's 15 now, and I've had him I've had him for about 14 years. There has been a lot of good stretches where everything has gone relatively well. There has been just one severe bite (me), and I brought that on myself by doing something known to trigger a reaction.

 

That said, as Rushdoggie noted, it *is* a burden, and there have been many times when I've really wondered why keep with it. He has gotten worse as he's aged and I have had to adjust my management of him over time. Over time he has become much less tolerant of things I used to be able to do without much worry (e.g., I used to be able to scale his teeth by hand, trim his nails, brush him out, cut out mats, etc. without trouble; all of those activities require muzzling now).

 

I have already decided that in his old age if his health takes a bad turn and requires regular handling (forcing pills or giving fluids, for example), I will not put either him or myself through that. He is fearful when muzzled, and I honestly feel that I have given him the best life possible. But I also live alone and move in circles of very dog savvy people, so he, me, and they were all less at risk than might have been the case in other situations.

 

There have been many occasions when I thought of putting him down, but never could bring myself to do it. But I completely understand that choice when someone makes it.

 

Logan's mom,

I'm glad you're trying. What Logan did to your granddaughter is understandable from a dog's POV. Growling at a pack mate is also normal behavior. The best thing you can do for Logan is to recognize his normal canine behaviors for what they are. Yes, he has issues, but the other half of the equation is the humans that live with him, and you have to be careful not to put him in situations that will cause him to react badly. Remember that growling *is* communication, and at least a growl is a warning. It's always better to have a dog who will give a warning than not....

 

I know I've repeated some of what's already been said, but as someone who has lived with and managed a fear biter for a very long time I just wanted to reiterate that they often can be managed, though it can be a burden, but also that choosing to PTS isn't a terrible thing to do. Even when my dog was much younger, my dog directive specified that in the event of my death he was to be PTS. That would have been--and still is--the fairest option for *him*.

 

Please excuse any typos. I'm doing this on my phone and don't have time to go back and proof.

 

J.

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Does that make sense? An aggressive dog generally means to be aggressive. A reactive dog doesn't necessarily mean any harm at all, he's just having a freak-out.

 

It does, but I'm still not sure which Logan is. He loves people once he knows them, but strangers at the door are his enemy. However, not away from home. Only issue away from home was at Costco - he was in the car and while my husband was walking up a person setting out cones was very close to the car and Logan rumbled at him. Stopped as soon as my husband told him to. But, then again, I've been growled at by many dogs in their cars. I never walk close to a car with a dog in it. Did Logan react when he bit my granddaughter? She swooped down on him to hug after he showed teeth. Seem's reactive, but I still think he was resource guarding her mom, hence the teeth.

 

 

From your descriptions, I've read Logan as reactive. Growling in the car is completely normal if undesirable dog behavior. After all, they're trapped in a car/box and here comes a stranger, possibly doing scary things.

 

As for Logan biting when someone is trying to hug, that is also common for fearful/reactive dogs. An aggressive dog would not have given warning, but Logan did: he showed teeth and probably displayed other "warning" body language signs. But when his show of teeth and body language failed to work, only then did he resort to a bite, and that is not the work of a truly aggressive dog.

 

As Sue pointed, more children are bit while trying to hug dogs (or otherwise get close to them) than almost any other thing. I got bit myself, when I was a toddler: I rolled/fell on a little dog and it bit my face. That's reactive, not aggressive. The dog was trying to defend itself from this maniac child! :P

 

All that said, though, a reactive dog is no less deserving of care and worry than an aggressive one, because of the willingness to use teeth. It makes a difference perhaps in how a reactive vs aggressive dog is managed or trained, but caution and prevention remains the name of the game.

 

~ Gloria

 

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I have a "reactive" dog, although she is much better now. Her trigger was dogs and her strategy was to act like Cujo to keep approaching dogs out of her space bubble. The interesting thing was that if a loose dog entered her space bubble in a life happens sort of way, she would sit, look terrified, and DO NOTHING. Fortunately, her bite threshold is very very high, which is what one wants in any dog, but particularily a "reactive" dog. A "reactive" dog with a lower bite threshold has the potential to be dangerous. I think that the important thing here is not the label ("reactive"), but the bite threshold or willingness to use teeth.

 

Yes, hugging dogs is rude, but millions of dogs grudgingly put up with human stupidity without biting people. Several years ago, while I was walking my now deceased dog on a public sidewalk, a little girl with Down's syndrome raced ahead of mom screaming DOGGIE! DOGGIE!DOGGIE, ran up to my dog, and hugged it before I could stop her.....and the dog stood there looking terrified, but did nothing... and I held my breath and did nothing until the kid let go because I did not want to precipate a reaction from the dog by panicking.

 

This dog has given you an important piece of information that it is willing to use its teeth and now needs to be managed and desensitized accordingly.

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I think some dogs instinctively know special needs kids are different. I've had several Border Collies who, without fail, would find the kid in the group with autism. They would cuddle and play preferentially with that child despite not being big fans of children to begin with.

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I would not invest the $500 on the behaviorist unless the entire family is onboard and you are willing to follow the person's advice to the letter unless told otherwise by the person. One gets out of it what one puts into it. As with dog training, behaviorial work is as much about modifying the humans' behavior as it is about modifing the dog's behavior.

 

Speaking of which, given the dog's history, I would not allow him to interact with anyone outside the immediate family or professionals. You should not be allowing people to touch this dog in public or in your home unless they are trained professionals. If he bites someone, you can get SUED. Simply tell people that they may not touch your dog and if they persist tell them that the dog has mange or ringworm or just tell them to stay the hell away.

 

Owning such a dog is a huge responsibility and part of the human behavior modification that I mentioned above is keeping the world safe from your dog and the dog safe from the world which means growing eyes in the back of your head, creating an imaginary bubble around the dog, and not letting anything or anyone into that bubble, even it means being rude to people or taking evasive action to avoid an approaching person or a bad situation.

 

 

^^ This.

 

Also, ASAP you need a plan for what to do with Logan when you have visitors (both expected and unexpected). Management unless you are actually training is important.

 

I taught my dog to go behind the gate when he hears a knock or the doorbell. He still barks (thats going to be a hard one to fix) but I know when I answer the door that he has no way to stick his head between my legs and lunge at whoever is in the doorway. I dispensed many treats to him while I was at the door (I used a remote control treat dispenser since the gate is around the corner from the door, but you can always just chuck food at him if you can reach). Now its a reflex that he dives for the gate when he hears someone at the door.

 

Also, when I have guests for a brief (under 3 hours) visit he is in the bedroom. I close the door and I also have a tension baby gate I put across the doorway so no one accidentally lets him out thinking its the bathroom or something. Initially he would bark hysterically but I did get some medication from my vet and it helped calm him down and now he is fine with no meds...its just one of those things that happens, people come over, Mom sends me to the bedroom with a chewie. No big deal.

 

Not being on high alert when people are over helps make the boulder on my shoulders get a little smaller. He didn't get a chance to practice behaviors I didn't like. My husband objected saying he was being isolated, I put my foot down and insisted, and he got over it. It was *me* who would get tense and sick with worry, and I felt in this case I knew better and I am pretty sure I am right.

 

I did practice his training with people (go say hi then come back immediately) when I was in the mood, and with the right people (who can follow directions). I am currently working on training a petsitter so I can go out of town for the weekend (he has a place to stay for a long trip but its far away and not practical for an overnight trip) and creating a set up where he can be let in and out with a gate between him and the petsitter. (Its *hard* to find a pet sitter who isn't convinced that they could make friends and try to push him!)

 

Don't put Logan in a situation where he can make bad choices...manage him until you have a plan that works, hopefully with professional help.

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I think some dogs instinctively know special needs kids are different. I've had several Border Collies who, without fail, would find the kid in the group with autism. They would cuddle and play preferentially with that child despite not being big fans of children to begin with.

I have had dogs that seem to know kids in general are different, my late Brody could be a complete ass, but was always very gentle with little kids, his previous family who had begun to believe he was an aggressive dog said he never made a bad move around the kids, he was always nice to them.

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Thank you all for your advice and insights. It is always helpful. It has been a rough week around here. Husband and I are at odds over Logan. It's been pretty tense. However, I did find I can yell at my husband and Logan doesn't do anything. I still never go near his side of the bed unless he is awake. I'm not sure I want to push Logan that far, however he and I are getting along very well. He comes and sits by me, he lays by my feet, he plays with toys inside and brings them to me for play, and we play SOCCER! He is currently learning TOUCH, which someone here talked about. Learns so fast!

 

I don't have any small children here or near by. My neighbors have 2 grandchildren that come over and we have talked to them and the kids and told them to NEVER run to Logan or pet him without permission. We have told them that he did bite and we don't know if he likes kids. I didn't want to scare them, but they have been around an aggressive dog before (not mine), and so I would rather have "stay away from the dog", than them running up to him.

 

Logan seems fine around strangers away from his home. It's coming into the home that he reacts to. The renters will be coming over with their checks again soon, so we will see. I think the removing him to the bedroom is a good way to handle it, and hopefully I can get husband on board with that.

 

One thing I don't know if I said in an earlier post, my sister-in-law came over one day when I was not here. My husband said he did not hear her, but she did the "knock, yoo hoo" as she was opening the door. He told me Logan took off barking at her, but she stopped, stood still, and he went up to her and sniffed her and really did nothing. He did not make friends, but did smell her hand. I don't know if she tried to pet him at some point or not. I'm not fond of strangers in my home getting acquainted by touching the dog. I would rather that come later.

 

My father-in-law, Bill, who is 93 lives with us 3 nights a week. He adores Logan and Logan adores him. I watched them this weekend. First thing in the morning, Logan runs into his room to check on him. Then both nights after dinner, Logan walked behind Bill slowly from the table to the family room steps, watched his feet go down the steps to the family room, then followed him, watched him sit down, then bounced off to find my husband. Maybe I'm seeing more than was there, but it was like it was Logan's job to make sure he got to his chair safely both nights.

 

Also, we have decided to take Logan to the behaviorist at the SPCA. It is much more affordable for us, and they will start with one consultation then schedule more as they see fit. Also, phone, email for questions. I feel pretty good about this as the behaviorist contacted us directly, gave us different date options and is scheduling it within 2 weeks. So, we are going this way for now. This person is not a vet, but is CPDT, CDBC, and the director at our SPCA, so I think there is a lot of experience there. Is it the same as a vet behaviorist, not sure.

 

Blackdawg said if all were not on board not to spend the $500. I have to say that I am not sure if my husband will follow the suggestions/directions 100%. So we will start at the SPCA and see what happens. Logan is still on probation in my mind and we have a long way to go. But he is a lovely dog.

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Also, we have decided to take Logan to the behaviorist at the SPCA. . . .This person is not a vet, but is CPDT, CDBC, and the director at our SPCA, so I think there is a lot of experience there. Is it the same as a vet behaviorist, not sure.

 

You answered your own question. The person is not a veterinarian, therefore is not a vet behaviorist.

 

A specialty in veterinary behavior is a medical specialty, as is psychiatry, for example, in human medicine. Just a a psychiatrist will have the MD (or DO) as part of her or his credentials, so a veterinary behaviorist will have a DVM or VMD in theirs.

 

There are other applied behaviorists who are and vets and who may not be trainers.

 

The other person you're referring to has accreditation associated with dog training. There are many excellent dog trainers who work with behavioral issues. There are sadly more than a few who are charlatans and advertise themselves as "behaviorists" who are not.

 

So, it's important to do your homework and choose a person who's qualified to help you with Logan, which I know you're trying very hard to do.

 

Again, I'd like to echo those thanking you for doing your best for Logan. As always, I wish you the best with him.

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You really need to limit the dog's exposure to people until after he has been seen by the behaviorist and you have devised a plan for dealing with people, and you have learned how to read this dog. Please stop taking him to places where he can encounter the general public and lock your doors so people can't walk into your home uninivited. If your dog bites another person it will be very very bad.

 

It is possible that these social interactions are causing your dog stress and the early warning signs are being missed. The key to working with these dogs is reading the very early warning signals of stress and getting the dog out of the situation BEFORE the dog reacts with a bark, growl, and then possibly a bite.

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You really need to limit the dog's exposure to people until after he has been seen by the behaviorist and you have devised a plan for dealing with people, and you have learned how to read this dog. Please stop taking him to places where he can encounter the general public and lock your doors so people can't walk into your home uninivited. If your dog bites another person it will be very very bad.

 

It is possible that these social interactions are causing your dog stress and the early warning signs are being missed. The key to working with these dogs is reading the very early warning signals of stress and getting the dog out of the situation BEFORE the dog reacts with a bark, growl, and then possibly a bite.

^^^this.

I think the most important advice you have received is not to allow Logan to be in a situation where he can make a bad choice. This is up to you.

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Hi Patricia. I was just thinking about you and Logan this evening and wanted to send some good vibes your way. I hope the visit with the SPCA behaviorist goes well. I know you said it might be sometime in the next two weeks, but I figured I'd wish you all luck, even if it is a bit preemptive. Please keep us updated!

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Camden's Mom,

 

Thanks for the wishes. His visit is on the 14th. I will post after we meet and see how it goes. Logan has been very good. I kind of laid into him a couple of days ago because he was rushing to the door (it is locked) every time he heard someone. I was letting my husband handle him, but I had "had it" with the rushing. I put him in a down/stay, and everytime he broke it, I body blocked him (Patricia McConnell) and made him start over. It was my son at the door and he was helping me by knocking. Logan figured out after about 3 times that I wasn't kidding. He did not move when my daughter-in-law came over and he loves her. I have been putting him in the bedroom if my granddaughter comes over (husband doesn't like it, but so what). We have not had any other visitors.

 

He is very happy to see family, but I am not going to let him rush the door. I want him to down/stay until I let him greet family. He is becoming pretty laid back, and he and the little male dog seem to be getting along pretty well. He is happy to see the dogs on the property line (6 ft fence), and wags his tail and visits. There is never any barking at all. My aussie used to fence fight, but Logan doesn't do that. He seems to love all dogs so far.

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We went to the behaviorist today. Her credentials are CODT, CDBC, behavior specialist for the Sacramento SPCA. Of course, Logan was very good around her. He behaved, and only wanted to go see the dogs. Our parking spot was right beside an exercise area for two dogs (fenced). He likes other dogs. He did give her the "stare", and she recognized it right away. She moved her chair, broke eye contact, and just starting talking to me, telling me he was getting uncomfortable and she was removing the threat. I was glad she saw it because I've seen that stare and husband says I'm seeing things. So she clarified it for me. We spent over an hour going over things. We will work with him for 2-3 weeks, then call her to set up another appt. She said it was fine for us to go to training classes with other dogs as she did not see any aggression issues with Logan that were insurmountable.

 

She gave us tons of info, and within 1 minute of us going in, Logan was sniffing her, and checking her out, being happy. He slept through some of the interview, and even went to her for a pet. She never pulled out a treat or towered over him, and she completely ignored him at first until he went to her. She had quite a bit of advice for us and I'm not sure where to start. First, the stranger at the door situation. We are to teach him "room", sending him to another room (bedroom) when someone knocks at the door. This will take a while so in the interim, we keep the door locked, and remove him if someone is coming in. Once he learns "room", we will have him go there, shut the door, and only after our guest is inside and comfortable, will he be allowed out. Then he is allowed to see the person and if all is well, can remain in the room under our supervision. Another alternative is to tether him in the room where we can supervise but not keep him on leash where he is straining against it. If he does not behave, he goes into bedroom or is locked outsite. I may have to reread everything she covered, but she gave us written instructions for everything.

 

Showing me teeth (which he did today for the first time since Feb 7th, she suggests that I firmly tell him to STOP. KNOCK IT OFF, or something like that. If my husband is in the room as he was today (Logan between us), then we are to seperate and go different ways, then I am to call Logan to me, not husband.

 

Walking him is important and we are goint to try a no-pull harness. He is not aggressive away from the house, and she, after being around him for over an hour, felt he was not an aggressive dog. He may be resource guarding my husband and so we will work with it.

 

No hitting or very loud shouting at him when there is bad behavior, but firm no nonsense discipline - down stay/ remove from area, etc. There was so much, I can't think about all of it right now, but I did like her and her methods. I have been reading Patricia Mcconnell and she told me they follow Patricia's concepts for behavior and training. So, I did something right!

 

Logan did show teeth to the assistant when we got the no-pull harness there. She had been putting on the harness, sizing and trying different sizes to get a good fit. I was kind of away talking to another assistant. My husband had Logan on leash. They had been at it about 10 minutes and Logan was getting stressed. I heard her say Uh Oh, and she stood up, just as I heard my husband correct him. Yep, Logan was between her and my husband. The assistant handled it very well and they got the harness fitted.

 

 

We have Logan sitting or waiting all of the time, now at the door, for us to go through first. He is VERY good with that. He is still being okay with the dogs. No incidents. I think he and the girl may be a little off with each other, but except for barking very loud once when they were playing he has not been bad with them.

 

I am encouraging them to all come out and be in the back yard together, not playing, just walking around and doing their own thing. Logan may find a squirrel in a tree, and little Ruger may go over and watch, or Logan and the girl may get a drink together, but I'm just trying to get them to enjoy being in the yard together. Logan loves the dogs in the other two yards that border ours and they spend time at the fence with their tails wagging. Sometimes they lay down on either side of the fence by each other.

 

One thing she told us that I'm not sure how well we can do this is feeding him his meals by playing hide/find putting his kibble in a room in different places and having him find it or putting it in a Kong. Her recommendation was no bowl feeding for BCs, but she knew it was hard to do. But it provided mental stimulation for him. My problem is the other dogs interferring and our house isn't well equipped for this. The only rooms I can shut him in to find or have a Kong away from the other dogs have wall to wall carpeting. She also gave us games to play with him and specific instructions as to who starts the game, who decides when he gets petted, etc. She said it takes some time, but he needs to know that we are the ones that make the decision as to when to play, when to pet, etc.

 

Reading back on this, I sound a bit disjointed, so sorry for that. It's getting late. But I did feel good about today. I'm still not trusting of Logan completely, but I am much better. He doesn't push me around any more, and he follows me a lot in the house. He seems to like me a lot now. I stepped on him today accidentally, and nothing, I just turned around and apologized and petted him, and he bounced off.

 

So, any input? I'm curious about the feeding. I'm willing to do what I can, but not sure about kibble all over the carpet and I don't have 2 hours a day to play "find the feed" (lol). I don't free feed, and he does eat everything I give him.

 

Thanks

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It sounds like you have a great set of instructions and, more importantly, are determined to do your best at following through on them!

 

As for the feeding - it's making feeding a mental exercise instead of "fast food" for Logan. If you use the Kong, he can eat in his crate. People do Kongs in different ways (you might try a "search" here to see what's been suggested in the past by those who use Kongs) depending on what they are feeding the dog, whether it's a meal or a boredom-breaker during the day, or whatever.

 

For hide-and-seek feeding, you may or may not feel you have a suitable situation and you sure might not want a lot of kibble crumbs (or mess from whatever you feed) in the corners of your rooms or under the edges of the furniture! One other alternative is a food-dispensing toy like the bottle on a rope (the dog has to manipulate the bottle to get the kibble to fall out) that can be used in the crate or on a suitable floor surface. Or there's a toy called the Busy Buddy that dispenses kibble with the dog actively working at it. There are many alternatives (I found them with a Google search for "dog food dispensing toy". In good weather, I wonder if you could even do this in the backyard, although probably not if there are neighbor dogs in their yards and he might resource-guard his food at all.

 

You have a lot to do but look at what you are already doing, and the positive results you are already seeing. Being able to detect the subtle signs that a dog is giving (like "the stare") is a huge step, one that many people never take because they don't view the dog through educated eyes. With practice, you (and your husband) will grow to recognize and understand what's happening, be able to be proactive and forestall problems before they occur (before or just about when the idea's about to occur to Logan), and find that good training becomes second nature to you and you don't have to think about it all the time, you just do it as a habit.

 

Your continuing work with Logan is an inspiration. Very, very best wishes!

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^^What Sue said.

 

Especially this: "Your continuing work with Logan is an inspiration."

 

I couldn't have said any of it any better than she did.

 

I don't want to overwhelm you with more information, but maybe later on when you're not feeling so inundated, you might want to consider taking a look at some of Suzanne Clothier's articles:http://www.suzanneclothier.com/articles She's written some great stuff and some of it may be helpful to you.

 

Echoing the very, very best wishes for you all.

 

roxanne

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Thanks. About the crate, we don't crate Logan. When I first started this post (9 pages ago), I mentioned somewhere that when we crated him at night, the second night he scared me to death, snarling at me, and attacking the crate door when I closed it. I know he would have bit me at that time. My husband took the crate out and we no longer use it.

 

I honestly don't know if I have the guts to go through that again. We will see about a Kong. We can put him in the bedroom to use it, but it does keep him away from us and I don't think he will be happy about that, he may think he is being punished. This dog is so tired at night from all of his running and play during the day, that he just crawls behind my husband's chair and is asleep by 8:30pm.

 

Anyway, lots for us to do and try.

 

Thanks for the support. I appreciate it.

 

Pat

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Forgot about the crate issue, sorry!

 

About the Kong and the bedroom, I don't know how long it takes a dog to finish a filled Kong but I would hazard a guess that it depends on what you stuff it with. But even if you just put his kibble (if you feed kibble) in the Busy Buddy, could one of you have something to do in the bedroom for five or ten minutes while he extracts and eats his meal?

 

I like to hear that a dog has had such a fulfilling day that he's ready to sleep at a decent hour. It seems Logan's days are very satisfying in terms of activity, and that's a good thing.

 

If you did decide to re-introduce a crate, don't even consider shutting the door. Just put his treat or toy or whatever inside, and allow him to go in on his own (and right back out again if he chooses) and learn that a crate is not a "bad place" to be. If he has a favorite mat or blanket to sleep on, you can put that in the crate and you might find that someday, he chooses to go in there to take a nap.

 

Crate-training is a good thing even for a dog that does not spend time In the crate. It does prepare him for the possibility of having to be crated - during transportation, at the vet's, in an emergency, for rest and recuperation after surgery or illness or injury, for so many good reasons. But, it may not be possible for Logan and that's understandable. Still, you might try desensitizing him to the crate by trying some of these very low-key, no-push, low-risk approaches.

 

Again, very best wishes!

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