border aggression to teen age granddaughter

[d112358]

My foster BC pulls like a freight train and has some handling issues so getting a harness on is tricky. I ended up getting an oversized Sporn mesh harness and working him up to putting his legs through the loops. He can still pull, but at less than half the power, and the back clip on the harness makes the leash easier to manage than the front clip no-pull types.

[Blackdawgs]

I would not invest the $500 on the behaviorist unless the entire family is onboard and you are willing to follow the person's advice to the letter unless told otherwise by the person. One gets out of it what one puts into it. As with dog training, behaviorial work is as much about modifying the humans' behavior as it is about modifing the dog's behavior.

 

Speaking of which, given the dog's history, I would not allow him to interact with anyone outside the immediate family or professionals. You should not be allowing people to touch this dog in public or in your home unless they are trained professionals. If he bites someone, you can get SUED. Simply tell people that they may not touch your dog and if they persist tell them that the dog has mange or ringworm or just tell them to stay the hell away.

 

Owning such a dog is a huge responsibility and part of the human behavior modification that I mentioned above is keeping the world safe from your dog and the dog safe from the world which means growing eyes in the back of your head, creating an imaginary bubble around the dog, and not letting anything or anyone into that bubble, even it means being rude to people or taking evasive action to avoid an approaching person or a bad situation.

[patriciag]

My foster BC pulls like a freight train and has some handling issues so getting a harness on is tricky. I ended up getting an oversized Sporn mesh harness and working him up to putting his legs through the loops. He can still pull, but at less than half the power, and the back clip on the harness makes the leash easier to manage than the front clip no-pull types.

 

This is the one I was looking at. I think I will try it.

[Camden's Mom]

Hi. The first trainer doesn't want to work with Logan. Logan really lunged, growled, and wanted to "eat" him, is the best description I can give. I had nothing against him, but he couldn't even take Logan's leash.

 

Oh, ok. I was just curious... he didn't sound like a bad trainer from your description and I remembered he was willign to work with you in your home, which is helpful. However, I can understand his hesitancy to work with Logan after that first session. Thanks... was just wondering if Jaime was still in the equation. Still wishing you the best of luck moving forward and very glad to hear you have a rescue "in your back pocket" should things not work out!

[patriciag]

Thanks, Camdens Mom. Jaime actually referred me to the trainer that wanted to take Logan for 3 weeks. Even if it sounded like a good idea, which I didn't think it was, it was way over my price range.

[Marley Girl]

I think he would make a great dog for a single man who's looking for a guard dog and companion. I wouldn't have the heart to even consider putting a healthy dog who was previously abused down.

[Shetlander]

I think he would make a great dog for a single man who's looking for a guard dog and companion. I wouldn't have the heart to even consider putting a healthy dog who was previously abused down.

A fearful, reactive dog is not a good candidate as a guard dog. And what happens when that single man marries or has children or just has friends over? I'm not suggesting the dog be put down, but rehabbing and managing him is a very big commitment. A dog and his owner rarely live in a vacuum, and that is all part of the challenge.

[rushdoggie]

I think he would make a great dog for a single man who's looking for a guard dog and companion. I wouldn't have the heart to even consider putting a healthy dog who was previously abused down.

 

I am sure you didn't mean for this to sound judgmental, but having a project dog is a long term and often emotionally exhausting commitment. I know this from first hand experience. You always have to have a plan A and B and in the back of your mind is always what could happen. Simple things like unexpected visitors, dinner guests and the UPS man become fraught with anxiety.

 

Its very easy to say that because his issues were a result of abuse they should be excused. But the fact is, there's a lot of nice, friendly, easy to get along with dogs in Rescue, and should he be placed and injure someone because of his aggression issues, the OP or a Rescue might be liable. I honestly think that very few people would want to adopt him, and single men often have girlfriends and families eventually.

 

Yes, he may be physically healthy, but he is not emotionally or behaviorally healthy and that is as life altering as physical illness. In addition his illness has a direct affect on how the people in his life feel.

 

I know that every day I wear a small weight on my shoulder with my behaviorally challenged dog, and it sounds like Logan's issues are much worse than my dog's issues. Some days it feels like a fishing weight, some days its a small boulder. I spent a great deal of time and money helping my dog, and I love him very, very much. There are tears burning behind my eyes as I write this. But if I ever believe that my dog's issues would cause injury or damage to any human I love, I will not hesitate to make that choice.

 

Its not a matter of "not having the heart" to go that route should the OP make that choice, but a matter of what is the most responsible and appropriate decision, regardless of the emotions involved. Making the choice to euthanize a fearful and aggressive dog is a painful one, and plenty of people who have love and compassion have had to make it.

 

Its not the OP's fault that Logan has these issues, and she is trying very hard to make it work out. If it doesn't, the best answer might be for Logan to be put down. I for one will not judge the OP and I will cry for him and for her, because it sucks majorly to have to be in that position.

[Gloria Atwater]

I think he would make a great dog for a single man who's looking for a guard dog and companion. I wouldn't have the heart to even consider putting a healthy dog who was previously abused down.

 

 

Oh, no no no. Abused, fearful, reactive dogs are terrible guard dogs, because they can't discern friend from foe or threat from ordinary things. Furthermore, if the dog were to bite someone and it was discovered that the dog was known to have a history of aggression, that would be a lawsuit waiting to happen - and probably death for the dog.

 

Plus, I don't know any single men who don't have buddies and pals in their lives and visiting their homes, which would throw Logan right back into the danger zone. And what about girlfriends?

 

I wouldn't have the heart to put down an abused, traumatized dog, either. But if I kept him, he would be my responsibility and "project" for the rest of his life.

Respectfully,

 

 

~ Gloria

[Sue R]

What the last three said!!!

[sandysfarm]

 

I am sure you didn't mean for this to sound judgmental, but having a project dog is a long term and often emotionally exhausting commitment. I know this from first hand experience. You always have to have a plan A and B and in the back of your mind is always what could happen. Simple things like unexpected visitors, dinner guests and the UPS man become fraught with anxiety.

 

Its very easy to say that because his issues were a result of abuse they should be excused. But the fact is, there's a lot of nice, friendly, easy to get along with dogs in Rescue, and should he be placed and injure someone because of his aggression issues, the OP or a Rescue might be liable. I honestly think that very few people would want to adopt him, and single men often have girlfriends and families eventually.

 

Yes, he may be physically healthy, but he is not emotionally or behaviorally healthy and that is as life altering as physical illness. In addition his illness has a direct affect on how the people in his life feel.

 

I know that every day I wear a small weight on my shoulder with my behaviorally challenged dog, and it sounds like Logan's issues are much worse than my dog's issues. Some days it feels like a fishing weight, some days its a small boulder. I spent a great deal of time and money helping my dog, and I love him very, very much. There are tears burning behind my eyes as I write this. But if I ever believe that my dog's issues would cause injury or damage to any human I love, I will not hesitate to make that choice.

 

Its not a matter of "not having the heart" to go that route should the OP make that choice, but a matter of what is the most responsible and appropriate decision, regardless of the emotions involved. Making the choice to euthanize a fearful and aggressive dog is a painful one, and plenty of people who have love and compassion have had to make it.

 

Its not the OP's fault that Logan has these issues, and she is trying very hard to make it work out. If it doesn't, the best answer might be for Logan to be put down. I for one will not judge the OP and I will cry for him and for her, because it sucks majorly to have to be in that position.

 

 

 

This is rushdoggie's beautifully put and enormously touching response to your very, you should excuse me judging, naive post.

The amount of committment, raw skill and "heart" it is taking and will take to keep Logan alive is close to super-human. If the owner decides to euthanize, it will be a decision that she comes to from the same "heart" and many, many of us here would have her back.

[GentleLake]

Rushdoggie's post and those following are well written and spot on.

 

I don't think it's ever fair to judge someone for making the decision to euthanize an emotionally disturbed, aggressive dog. And I suspect it's rare that the decision is made lightly. More often it causes considerable distress to the person or people who have to make it, and we should be supporting them rather than second guessing them, imo.

[D'Elle]

I am coming into this conversation very late, but have read it all.

Kudos to you and your husband for being willing to work with this dog.....many would not be willing even to try, and could not be blamed for that. You have received some great advice, and will continue to get support here, and I add my support as well.

 

Just a couple of things I can comment on at this point: the EasyWalk harness is great, and makes it impossible for the dog to pull.

You mentioned that you want to do +R training, but don't know how to approach it here. You might want to get a book called "Click To Calm". It is an excellent book and explains how to use +R with a reactive dog. Because of that book I was able to change the life of a dog who was massively dog-reactive. Now, of course, that was a dog with dog-aggression, not a dog with human aggression. I imagine that the same techniques would work but I have not had experience with it, nor have I had very much experience working with dogs who were aggressive to people. But you might want just to read that book and see if anything in it might help.

 

I also second the advice not to let anyone in the public touch or get near Logan at this point. It is just too much of a liability for you, and for him as well.

 

I wish you the best of luck!

[Shetlander]

I second Click to Calm. I have found it very useful for a variety of issues, though I have not used it for a dog like Logan. It is also an excellent primer on clicker training (I often use the word "yes" instead of a clicker).

[GentleLake]

A mouth or tongue click works well, too, and like the clicker is more neutral than voice markers.

 

Not saying anything negative a bout vocal markers, just throwing it out there for consideration.

[patriciag]

Thank you everyone for your kind posts. Marley, I take no offense to what you said. I think everyone here is rooting for Logan and also for me whatever happens. I, too, thought about one man who had lost his rather snarky BC that he had adopted back east somewhere. A rescue thought maybe he would be a good match for Logan, but I could not, morally, transfer him directly to another home that did not have the knowledge or exptertise to deal with this problem. So, the rescue in Canada is very well aware of ALL issues we have dealt with. If we do go that way.

 

Right now, my husband has no plans on Logan going anywhere, so we deal with it day to day. He is much calmer than he was. Yesterday, I was playiing soccer in the back yard and my little male aussie was chasing Logan during the play. He got a bit aggressive with Logan and Logan handled it very well, snipping lightly at Ruger to make him stop. I was proud of him. What is it with little dogs. I do think he and my girl have some challenge going, No rough play, but a look here and there. The girl jumped on my husband's lap this morning, and I don't think Logan liked it (facial, ears expression), but he just laid down, sighed and shut his eyes, so I think that is positive.

 

Logan is adjusting quite well, although we have not had strangers over. My granddaughter is still very afraid, and even though she will pet him as he is so happy to see her, it is not her favorite thing, and I don't encourage it at all.

 

Thank you for the tip on the EasyWalk. I have read so much about the various one, and am looking right now at the Sense-ation, Easywalk, and one other. I thought about the SPORN, but so many say it is tough to put on and off. I have had a regular harness on Logan before, and he was very good about putting it on. I'm the type of person that has to compare and read about every one and so I make my life more difficult. "Just buy one"! I tell myself.

 

Can someone tell me the main difference between "reactive" and "aggressive". I'm a bit confused with that. I also got four books from Patricia Mcconnell that are quite good, and 3 are very short so I'm not digging through hundreds of pages to get to the info.

 

I read back through this long posting and realize how much better Logan is now. If I could get over that "heart in throat" when someone comes over, I would be so much better. Baby steps.

[patriciag]

I did want to add something that I hope does not come across poorly, but it has been an observation for sometime as I have adopted animals from rescue before. Who knows what has gone on in a dog's life before he ended up in that pound? So many have been picked up as strays. My lovely aussie Gabe (RIP) was found wandering in the country near Bakersfield and was picked up as a stray. We never knew what caused his nose to be broken. We just knew it had at some point. He had health issues, and some dog aggression, although I did not have a name for it at the time (ignorance IS bliss), but he could have bit someone at some point and we would never know.

 

We rely on our system to make sure we are giving these wonderful rescues to good homes, but I know for a fact, they have gone into homes, then have had issues. Some have bitten. Logan is branded with a history because the bite was reported, but if he had not broke skin, our system would not have known. So, I can't help but feel that there are many out there like Logan, that for whatever reason, have bitten out of fear, or whatever. There are people that have had their pets bite them and have continued on, working with their dogs and no one may ever know. Also, and this one bothers me, that people turn their dogs in because they have bitten, but do not divulge that at all. I know that temperment testing is done, but does it always bring out the issue?

 

My little maltese poodle (rip) bit me because I moved him off the bed. He got very angry and went after me. Because of his size, I picked him off the bed and banished him until he calmed down, but I wouldn't do that to a big dog. So was he an aggressive dog? He drew blood, I know that.

 

I know Logan's issues with strangers (the trainer), and me brought out a lot, but now he is so good with me, and we are starting to bond.

 

Well, enough rambling. I'm not sure what I am trying to convey, just something that has been in my head for a long time. A 7 yr old dog gets adopted, has an issue, and is asked has he/she ever bitten? Can we honestly answer that question NO?

[Gloria Atwater]

Can someone tell me the main difference between "reactive" and "aggressive". I'm a bit confused with that.

 

 

Probably there will be various definitions from various folks, but here is mine!

 

In my view, an aggressive dog is one that looks for trouble and if/when he bites, he means it. He's angry and he's willing to use his teeth and whatever means to convey that. For example, if the mailman comes in the yard, this dog is going to bite because he wants to and he does not like the mailman on his turf. Or if this dog sees another male dog, he immediately wants to pick a fight.

 

A reactive dog, however, may not be angry and may not even really want to bite. But if something makes him fearful or startled or overwhelmed, he may bite because he can't think of any other way to solve his situation. So if the mailman comes in the reactive dog's yard, his first response may be to bark in fear and run around with his hackles up, but he really, really just wants the situation to go away. If he does bite the mailman, it might only be because the mailman got between him and an escape route or else reached out to pet him.

 

Does that make sense? An aggressive dog generally means to be aggressive. A reactive dog doesn't necessarily mean any harm at all, he's just having a freak-out.

 

Which is not to say that reactivity can't look like aggression, or that aggression can't look like reactivity. It can be difficult to diagnose or recognize, depending on the dog or situation. And I'd say it can also be a blend of both, with reactivity eventually leading to outright aggression, if the damage goes on long enough.

 

Are we all confused, yet?

 

~ Gloria

[Sue R]

What Gloria said!

[ShoresDog]

I want to second (or third or fourth! ) the Easy Walk harness. Once you've adjusted the strap lengths the one time, it's very easy to clip on. Just remember that the strap that is a different color from the others is the one that goes around the tummy and is easiest to be the one to clip and unclip. They are very comfortable for the dog. All three of my dogs have them, one because she wants to pull, one because he wants to dawdle behind and sniff, and one because she had a sore upper spine and I wanted to make sure that she never had her neck tugged on. To me they look much nicer for dogs that want to sniff around, as opposed to leashes attached to their necks.

[patriciag]

Shoresdog, any issues with the Easywalk rubbing and chafing? I've read the reviews and that plus stretching seemed to be concerns. I would like this one because I can buy it locally and if it doesn't fit, I can take it back. The others are all sold online (senseation, freedom, etc.)

 

Does that make sense? An aggressive dog generally means to be aggressive. A reactive dog doesn't necessarily mean any harm at all, he's just having a freak-out.

 

It does, but I'm still not sure which Logan is. He loves people once he knows them, but strangers at the door are his enemy. However, not away from home. Only issue away from home was at Costco - he was in the car and while my husband was walking up a person setting out cones was very close to the car and Logan rumbled at him. Stopped as soon as my husband told him to. But, then again, I've been growled at by many dogs in their cars. I never walk close to a car with a dog in it. Did Logan react when he bit my granddaughter? She swooped down on him to hug after he showed teeth. Seem's reactive, but I still think he was resource guarding her mom, hence the teeth.

[GentleLake]

From what you've said about Logan all along, Logan is reactive rather than aggressive. An aggressive dog doesn't get better as he settle into a new home and becomes more comfortable with the people in it.

 

For many territorial dogs, cars are just part of their territories, and they'll become possessive of it.

[d112358]

Does that make sense? An aggressive dog generally means to be aggressive. A reactive dog doesn't necessarily mean any harm at all, he's just having a freak-out.

 

It does, but I'm still not sure which Logan is. He loves people once he knows them, but strangers at the door are his enemy. However, not away from home. Only issue away from home was at Costco - he was in the car and while my husband was walking up a person setting out cones was very close to the car and Logan rumbled at him. Stopped as soon as my husband told him to. But, then again, I've been growled at by many dogs in their cars. I never walk close to a car with a dog in it. Did Logan react when he bit my granddaughter? She swooped down on him to hug after he showed teeth. Seem's reactive, but I still think he was resource guarding her mom, hence the teeth.

 

Hugging is a huge way that kids get bit by dogs. It looks like a threatening posture in dog language, restricts their movement and chance to escape, and it puts a kid's face right in the line of fire. Some dogs will tolerate it, but very few of them actively enjoy it. I would consider almost any bite that involves a hug to be a provoked bite (and not a sign of aggression).

[ShoresDog]

Regarding Easy Walk harnesses, we've had no problems with chafing unless the harnesses are left on when the dogs are running around off-leash and playing frisbee at the field that we walk to. We take them off for that part of the walk. The harnesses work fine for walking without being put on extremely tightly.

 

I agree with the above post about hugging. Two of my three really dislike hugging, and I think that's normal. The third loves any form of physical contact up to and including wrestling. If he weren't too big, he'd love to live in my lap. That would be horrifying to the other two, who like me just fine but no thanks to all that PDA!

[Blackdawgs]

The distinction between "aggressive" and "reactive" is academic.

if someone accidently pushes the wrong button and gets bitten, the victim (or victim's parents) and their lawyers won't give a flip if the dog is "reactive" or "aggressive".