Sheep in Britain, opinion piece in the NY Times

[alligande]

If you take away the silly premise that Britain would ever be rewilded, especially as its not really an active debate (I might not live there anymore but I still read British newspapers daily) it does gives some interesting numbers on the presence of sheep, and perhaps explain why the Brits resident there are not concerned about the Kennel clubs influence on the BC in the same away that people here are. 30 million sheep many who graze on hill land need a lot of border collies to bring them in!

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/pastoral-icon-or-woolly-menace.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=0

 

 

Edited to add the link.... Sorry about that

[geonni banner]

Link?

[Gloria Atwater]

Interesting article.

I think the man is a nut job, though, for suggesting bringing back UK wolves!!! What does he think those things will eat, when they've gone through all the parkland herds of deer? He's ignoring the fact that Britain is an island with significantly less land mass and MUCH smaller mountains than Europe. Beavers are also non-respecting of borders. And bears ... again, all one really needs are bears that get too used to people.

My apologies if I'm too negative, but I live out west where collisions between agriculture and "re-wilding" are often revealed to be costly and tragic.

As for border collies ... I hope that's a right idea and that the working collie is safe and sound in those green isles! I've hard a number of UK shepherds/farmers decry the use of quad bikes over dogs, though, so perhaps there is more change in sheep farming than at first seems. Dunno!

~ Gloria

[mum24dog]

Quad bikes are common but there is still plenty of work for dogs to do, enough to allow us to be relaxed about a certain amount of overlap between the different niche markets.

 

I admit to having some sympathy with Monbiot's dislike of the ubiquity of sheep but his romantic notion of going back to nature hasn't existed here for thousands of years.

 

Rewilding was featured on TV here last night and is being trialled in a small Lakeland valley that doesn't have a public road leading to it. No way will it catch on.

[Sue R]

What one shepherd pointed out to me almost ten years ago is that while he uses a quad bike on the lower elevations, and primarily to move himself and the dogs, it is not feasible to use one on the higher elevations or rougher areas, where there is nothing but a dog that can do the job and do it right. I think both have their place and I would hate to see the one replace the other.

[mum24dog]

What one shepherd pointed out to me almost ten years ago is that while he uses a quad bike on the lower elevations, and primarily to move himself and the dogs, it is not feasible to use one on the higher elevations or rougher areas, where there is nothing but a dog that can do the job and do it right. I think both have their place and I would hate to see the one replace the other.

This is what I see here. Not uncommon to see dogs on quad bikes.

 

If it's a small job on accessible terrain then a quad bike will do. A bigger job on steep and/or rough ground is for the dogs.

 

I often see dogs being sent out to bring in the sheep off the salt marshes, just as I see small flocks being moved from field to field by quad bike.

[alligande]

Gloria, I agree the guy is a complete nut job, the idea of introducing predators to a small island that has a huge population is nuts. Britain has been manipulated by man for so long that I think most would be shocked if trees appeared again! Those gorgeous English estates all man made, the list of Britains loved geographical features that have been effected by man is endless. But his wacky ideas are getting him mentioned in the NYTimes which I am sure plays a role in his ideas......

[mum24dog]

Gloria, I agree the guy is a complete nut job, the idea of introducing predators to a small island that has a huge population is nuts.

 

Just for those who don't know - we do still have a lot of nothing or not very much, just not enough to share with large predators.

 

Canadian family staying with us a few months ago asked where all the people were.

[alligande]

Can you imagine the uproar when a young child's pony became dinner . The amount of open space in Britain is something that many people have mentioned to me, very strict building policies, and unlike the US property owners do not have the right to the highest value use of their land is the of course the answer, I have had some very confused conversations trying to explain that the National Parks are all private land, and the owners are subject to very strict codes.

[mum24dog]

Why KC v working BCs isn't a big deal here IMO -

 

The average Brit who is mildly interested in dogs I'm sure thinks "One Man and His Dog" when BCs are mentioned, probably not even aware that there is a pale imitation show version.

 

BCs are common as pets and most of them will be farm rather than KC types.

 

Whilst I'm sure that there will be some working purists, equally there are successful people in the working world who don't mind sharing their dogs' genetics with the sport world. Noone is fooled into thinking a sport dog produced that way is automatically going to be a good worker too, although it may be. It's not usually an issue.

 

There are plenty of working dogs around to produce more without dipping into the sport mixture pond.

 

Our KC is pretty open minded. They held a junior photography competition a while ago and the winner was a girl who took a shot of her family's working farm dog streaking across the stubble. A short coated tri with prick ears - so far removed from the show clone. And that photo graced the front cover of the KC's monthly magazine.

 

I know someone who breeds nothing but working dogs and she is quite happy to add AW (G) (KC gold Agility Warrant) and SBCHT (KC Show Border Collie Herding Test) to some of her dogs' names. They are registered with the ISDS on merit which certainly tops the KC title (which I think came automatically with registration on merit) but if there are letters going what the heck?

 

And at the KC's flagship event Crufts, working, sport and show collies all get to strut their stuff, the latter rightly attracting smaller audiences. I've never been made to feel a second class citizen because of my motley crew of dogs when we've been there.

 

It's just a different culture.

[Gloria Atwater]

Just for those who don't know - we do still have a lot of nothing or not very much, just not enough to share with large predators.

 

Canadian family staying with us a few months ago asked where all the people were.

 

 

Oh, I adore the wide open spaces I've seen in Yorkshire, Derbyshire and especially Cumbria and the Scottish Borders! The lack of people is a joy to my Western open-range sensibilities. And I find it marvelous that you do still have so much open space after thousands of years of habitation. Marvelous!

 

But I also know it's not big enough for apex predators who can travel 30 miles in a night.

 

Looking forward to seeing more of Scotland next September!

 

~ Gloria

[mum24dog]

 

 

Oh, I adore the wide open spaces I've seen in Yorkshire, Derbyshire and especially Cumbria and the Scottish Borders! The lack of people is a joy to my Western open-range sensibilities.

~ Gloria

I lived in the Peak District of Derbyshire as a child, then moved to the coast on edge of Exmoor in Somerset. For the 34 years I've lived on the coast 5 miles from the Cumbrian border, 30 mins or less from the Lake District and Yorkshire Dales National Parks. I can drive nearly 3 hours towards Glasgow and only see one smallish town and the odd farmhouse by way of habitation. Lots of sheep though, even in a small field between north and southbound motorway carriageways.

 

I don't do well in cities.

 

Even in the south east where population is more dense there is more open land than you might expect.

I think we are so careful to preserve so much of our open spaces as we can because it is so limited and it would be so easy to destroy it.

[alligande]

 

 

Oh, I adore the wide open spaces I've seen in Yorkshire, Derbyshire and especially Cumbria and the Scottish Borders! The lack of people is a joy to my Western open-range sensibilities.

~ Gloria

What's funny is my Vermont born, east coast raised husband finds Yorkshire weird as there are no trees, he loves the open space but is almost more comfortable in the south of England as there are at least a few trees. While I, Yorkshire born get claustrophobia in Maine as there are so many bloody trees you never see a field. I felt very at home in Vermont lots of open space and fields, basically a thoroughly deforested area!

[MIRK]

Hello everyone, greetings from the Pennines.

Monbiot's quite amusing I'll give him that, but his re-wilding of the UK project is doomed to failure.

Britain is a cluster of small islands, with barely a blade of grass untouched by human hand.

Farming has given us the landscapes we love, nobody but George yearns for wolf-populated scrub...

Just picking up on earlier comments about the UK crossover between working sheepdogs and family pets,

I would agree with M24D who said the relationship is more relaxed here than it would seem in the US.

I live in the hills of Derbyshire, proper sheepdog territory,

but only 20 minutes drive from the 5th biggest city in the country.

As you can imagine, many farm pups have always made the journey to become house dogs in town.

(My father worked dogs for 80-odd years and never had a problem selling pups to non-farming folk).

Obviously, there have been well publicised disagreements between the ISDS and the KC about the breed,

but such issues remain hidden from the majority off non-trialers, both farming and not.

(Though that's not to say people wouldn't have an opinion re-the Kennel Club's ruination of many fine types of dog...)

The "farm" dog will be usually unregistered, and pups go for £150.

A registered 8 week old will be around £400, so as you can imagine the breeders of "elite" trial dogs like to maintain a little mystique about their animals!

Whether the purchaser of the expensive dog with the family tree gets any more than a warm feeling of smugness for his money is a moot point.

You'll not have to dig very deep to find farmers who think the slinky modern ISDS trials champions have become "soft".

Such dogs look good on the trials field when guided by an expert handler, but how would they fare bringing sheep of a gritstone edge in driving sleet..?

The quady riding, hard headed British farm dog may lack finesse,

but often makes up for that with guts and independent thought.

[mum24dog]

Hi MIRK

 

I've just checked the October Skipton dog prices and you could get a registered pup for less than that. I know someone who bought a registered pup from a successful trialler for £200. I could have had it as a rescue at 6 months. Farm gate unregistered pups can go for as little as £100 round here.

 

Just noticed that the top priced dog came from a farm a couple of minutes from here. I've only ever seen their dogs walking behind the cows on the way to and from milking. Funny what you find out when looking for something else.

 

That's not the first time I've heard of disparaging views of trialling dogs. I think it's inevitable that once the emphasis shifts from bread and butter work to competition the dogs are likely to change somewhat.

[MIRK]

Gosh! Sounds like you get good value down there M24D!

Maybe the prices here are pushed by close proximity to Sheffield & Manchester.

People certainly seem willing to pay for dogs.

Recently I was aghast at someone who purchased a BC/GR cross for £400.

I strongly suspect it was produced by an off the record random coupling.

The kind of pup that not too long ago would have been drowned at birth in the yard trough!

[mum24dog]

 

Gosh! Sounds like you get good value down there M24D!

Maybe the prices here are pushed by close proximity to Sheffield & Manchester.

People certainly seem willing to pay for dogs.

 

 

Here are the prices at the October auction. I was looking at the averages and you were pretty accurate with your £150 for an unregistered farm dog. -

 

http://www.stackyard.com/news/2013/10/skipton/13_working_dogs.html

 

My kids used to come home pestering to get me to buy one of Birkett's pups when there was a litter. How things change when big names are involved.

 

The lower prices I mentioned are buy direct prices and I doubt that £200 for a well bred pup would be easy to find, but an unregistered pup (quite possibly from an accidental litter) can be found for £100.

 

The availability of people with more money than sense will drive up prices, as you say. We don't have the equivalent of Manchester and Sheffield anywhere near and a lot of people come from farming families so aren't going to pay more than they have to for anything.

 

Where are you in Derbyshire?

[MIRK]

In Hathersage, though originally from over the Yorkshire Bridge in Bradfield.

You're dead right about farmers & their offspring not liking to part with their money, specially around here!

(And I should know ha ha).

Most folk with an interest in sheepdogs obviously know who the good dog men are locally,

and the likelihood of a pup being well bred, registered or un.

Interestingly, there's the odd working Beardy popping up around here as well,

something that's not happened for a long time.

[alligande]

When I was at uni in Manchester I spent a lot of time walking around the reservoirs near you, I like cities but the country girl in me needs to spend time out in the country and that was one of my favorite places to go.

[mum24dog]

In Hathersage, though originally from over the Yorkshire Bridge in Bradfield.

 

You're dead right about farmers & their offspring not liking to part with their money, specially around here!

 

 

In Hathersage, though originally from over the Yorkshire Bridge in Bradfield.

 

You're dead right about farmers & their offspring not liking to part with their money

 

 

But they aren't generally fussy about whose money they'll take.

 

I used to live in Hayfield around 16 miles from you in the 50s. The love of wide open countryside has stayed with me for life.

[MIRK]

Hayfield... proper sheepdog country that.

Did you take a fancy to the working dogs when there, or is that something you always had?

Hiya Alligande.

The little dog we have a the moment is from high up above those very dams... small world innit?

[mum24dog]

We didn't get into dogs until we moved down to Exmoor but one of them was a short coated tri farm pup. That was long before the KC came on the scene.

 

My mother explained BCs as dogs that work and WSDs as dogs that don't. Not entirely accurate at the time but it was true that to be a BC a dog had to be registered with the ISDS and were therefore likely to work for a living. Most dogs in pet or Obedience/Working Trial homes would

Be WSDs (often from a farm) and therefore non working. Agility wasn't even a glint in the eye.

 

I'm sure you know that but some reading this may not.

 

Going back to your earlier remarks about trial dogs and knowing the local dog men - I've never been convinced by the view apparently held by some that only dogs successful in Open trials are worthy of being bred from. As you say, real work can be very different from prescribed tests in a competition setting.

 

Of course there are dogs that perform well on and off the trial field but I'm sure that won't always be the case. Trialling is important for those whose business needs them to maintain a high profile and trial results are a guide for those not too sure what to look for, but does your average farmer who needs a good working dog go to a big name in the sport and pay inflated prices or does s/he go to the friend or neighbour whose dogs he knows can do the job he needs it for? Do many people care about bragging rights? I don't know. The farming people I know don't seem to but I've no idea if they are typical.

 

There is much talk of preserving the BC but what is a "real" BC? They certainly weren't created to win prizes; trials came about as as result of the deep seated competitive nature of farmers. I'd suggest the rough and ready types that you describe are closer to the original. Of course in the meantime the breed has been developed in different directions but at what point do you stick the pin in to fix the stage that needs preservation?

[MIRK]

I think I'm a tiny bit younger than you M24D, I only go back to the 60's.

I can remember my surprise as a kid to hear someone describe our dogs as Border Collies.

To us they were sheepdogs.

Even these days, very few people from round here use the name Border Collie.

This maybe a reflection of the fact that during the 20th century the breed swept all other herding types away.

Or maybe when the BC name was coined, it didn't catch on with farmers who just carried on with the generic "sheepdog".

Or maybe not... I really don't know...

On the breed preservation issue, unless we're talking of the conformation crowd I don't think there's an issue in the UK.

People who train dogs to do something generally admire another handler's skill whatever the discipline.

Agility, obedience, dancing... it all takes skill and dogman/woman-ship.

That sheepdogs excel in many different fields other than fields full of sheep is merely a reflection of what fine dogs they are, and should not in my eyes be seen as any threat to the breed.

Going back to how this thread started and George Monbiot's rewilding nonsense, I honestly feel that sheep and sheepdogs are so much a part of Britain's fabric that it's hard to imagine the islands without them.

Or am I just being complacent?

[alligande]

Maybe it's a northern thing, I come from North Yorkshire, close to Teeside and I dont even know when I first heard the name border collie, they were just sheepdogs as well, I never heard them called anything else.

[GentleLake]

I used to correspond with a contract shepherdess in Wales. She just called them collies. Sheepdogs seemed to be a more general term for her, encompassing other breeds of sheepdogs such as the Welsh sheepdog that's also used extensively where she lives, as well as some working beardies and many purpose bred sheepdog crosses.