simba Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 Sue R: People also start taking subjective things like 'beauty', 'good conformation' (as assessed in breed rings) and assuming they can be objectively assessed and have meanings beyond those the observer assigns to them. And that their values are universal, or at least widely shared and given the same priorities they do. So you either think the Westminster border collie is beautiful, and well- put- together, and that those are the most important things, or you're ignorant, and misinformed. They are literally unable to see from your point of view. They can't understand that 'beauty' and 'conforming to the breed standard' are not synonymous, or someone might have different values, or that the breed standard does not measure objective perfection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 So you either think the Westminster border collie is beautiful, and well- put- together, and that those are the most important things, or you're ignorant, and misinformed. They are literally unable to see from your point of view. They can't understand that 'beauty' and 'conforming to the breed standard' are not synonymous, or someone might have different values, or that the breed standard does not measure objective perfection. LOL This reminds me of a woman I met at a dog show, um, 32 years ago. I did competitive obedience for a very short time and had my first border collie entered. She walked up to me and said, "I love border collies. It's too bad you people don't have a standard." I very exaggeratedly dropped my jaw ( ) and replied, "Yes, we do have a standard. But it's not an appearance standard; it's based on performance." She didn't understand me. I tried to explain, but she just could not wrap her head around the concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 LOL This reminds me of a woman I met at a dog show, um, 32 years ago. I did competitive obedience for a very short time and had my first border collie entered. She walked up to me and said, "I love border collies. It's too bad you people don't have a standard." I very exaggeratedly dropped my jaw ( ) and replied, "Yes, we do have a standard. But it's not an appearance standard; it's based on performance." She didn't understand me. I tried to explain, but she just could not wrap her head around the concept. Sadly I had a similar conversation with a lady in her 70s heavily involved in showing AKC, Scottie's and Gordon setters are her breeds only a couple of years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 Yeah, it's an unfortunate mindset among conformation folks. Some have definitely drunk the ACK Kool-Aid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Darn not-working quote function. Anyway, Kayla, if the AKC acknowledged that the differences between working bred and not-working bred dogs of any type, they'd also be acknowledging that they, the American Kennel Club, are not the be-all and end-all of dogs. That is never, ever, ever going to happen. Ruth and Agent Gibbs I definitely didn't take that into consideration, but you're absolutely right. It's a sad situation for all working breeds involved in the whole mess and I wish we could find some sort of answer. I know a couple of Aussies that are on the smaller side and I like them a lot. They are both "softer" in personality than many other Aussies I have met and they are really, really nice dogs. But they are most definitively not mini-Aussies. The difference is very, very clear. My Aussie is likely to going mature quite small, so I'm likely never going to hear the end of my dog being a "mini Aussie". So, knowing that the AKC will never be on the working dog's side - in the way that would separate it from the show ring "varieties" - what do we imagine would be the solution, or at least, the middle ground between the AKC and the working bred folks? Do we assume there will never be one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crawford Dogs Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 I couldn't find any ads for mini border collies online. Clearly I'm looking in the wrong place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 I couldn't find any ads for mini border collies online. Clearly I'm looking in the wrong place? Me either. Curious how they look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Ok that got me curious 3 pages of google search no mini border collies, i did find a page on an AKC breeders page saying there is no so such thing and if one is being advertised it is as a result of bad breeding, basically everything that has been said in this discussion about minis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted January 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 I put up miniature border collie on Google and that is where I got hits about mini BC. I'll have to try it again and see how I got that to come up. I was looking for miniautre border collie figurines at the time because I collect them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 I use GoodSearch rather than Google, but I got a number of hits, including this one for a thread on these Boards several years ago: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=17159 ETA: And another thread here: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=5992 But I'm not really seeing any "miniature border collie" breeders showing up, more random responses to the claims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Not related, but sort of related; mostly just saw this quote while perusing some working Aussie articles and thought I would share with ya'll. "Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.But Performance indicates what the animal actually is." No matter how confusing and aggravating the name game plays out with the AKC and in the BC/Aussie, we'll know what our "animal actually is" and what the show-bred dogs only "appear to be" . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madrose124 Posted February 4, 2014 Report Share Posted February 4, 2014 I have a "mini aussie" slash "mini american shepherd"...but I chose her because of her "large" size (for some minis) at (now grown, 17" and 30lbs) for my young son with dissabilities (to someday be a service dog). Many minis I found were really just small aussies bred for their size with occassional full size aussie for diversity etc ever since the 60s/70s. They also claim that true aussies are much smaller than present day show aussie lines--which as you can tell with the AKC BC now, is pretty similar. They are supposed to be more true to the original "little blue dogs". Then of course you get the trend on mini somethings....and then you get them ruined just the same. And now they have "toy" aussies which just look ridiculous. Basically from all of my research during the time I got her (and I also have a friend who breeds minis for cattle dog work and has a working cattle ranch--her dogs are the real deal) is that AKC screws up everything about working dogs. So not only did they mess up aussies in general, they now have "messed" it up even more by preventing "cross breeding" with standard australian shepherds from now on. That being said, when i got her, I always wanted a dog to do doggie sports with (not necessarily actively compete, but for my fun) and she has a great play drive. Zero herding ability whatsoever. But I didn't get her for that.Now as for border collies it makes no sense. If you want a herding type dog without the working drives then get an aussie by all means. No sense in messing up what a true border collie is by applying arbitrary standards. Oh man, I saw some yahoo question posting about border collies and how they were saying a border collie isn't pure if it doesn't have tipped ears, and how any responsible person needs to find their dog from an AKC breeder. BLAH. Gag me with a spoon on that one. Here's my Sydney. She is 1 year old. I don't regularly call her a mini unless someone asks, most people say she's a small aussie...which is exactly what she is. She doesn't look bug eyed or papillion like most of those I've seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madrose124 Posted February 4, 2014 Report Share Posted February 4, 2014 Oh and as per AKC, you cannot have a miniaturized version of an existing breed, hence the name change to mini american shepherds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caykuu Posted February 4, 2014 Report Share Posted February 4, 2014 Funnily enough, I have two "Mini Aussies" myself. They're from different "kinds" of breeding of Mini Aussies, but hear me out first before I get bashed somehow. One, I agree that the whole Mini Aussie rage going on now has ignited a whole other category of BYB fodder, and the fact that AKC actually recognized them as a breed during this critical time doesn't help at all. Mini Aussies originally ARE an obvious mix of various smaller breeds with the Australian Shepherd. The creator of the breed's first Mini Aussie (I didn't try finding the photo yet, but I've seen it somewhere online in the past) had that poofy pomeranian fur, big papillon ears that bent, and looked pretty hilarious. My female MAS, Rara, is most likely a byproduct of the whole small breed mixing. She's the black tri in my avatar, 13" tall at the shoulder. The herding drive is all but bred out of her (we instinct tested, and she just ran back to me), except for on humans, and she has poor health (explained a bit on my blog), obviously as a result from poor breeding... Unfortunately, I brought her home when I was still a naive high schooler (actually just a few years ago) and basically before I was informed about the issues and kinks of the dog breeding world. My other "Mini Aussie", Lancer, is a product of purely breeding smaller sized standard Aussies together. It's funny, because his parents are both 25~30 lbs, and Lancer is now 15 months old and weighs over 40 lbs, no health problems yet. He was a random breeding between an actively herding farm dog (not just for the sport, but on a farm... wow for me, living in a suburban area) and a pet. He happened upon the standard Aussie size genes still hiding in his parents somewhere, since there was never any papillon/pomeranian/spaniel added to his lines. His temperament, working AND herding drive is incredibly strong and "to standard" (I'm sorry for being very vague here), though his parents were technically attempting being bred toward MAS... so I just call him a standard Aussie now. People get confused when if call him a "Mini Aussie" now. LOL! I actually haven't read through every post in this topic yet, but I felt like I should add some input for now! Also, is there actually a mini Border Collie thing going on now (Uh.. god forbid...)? Or are we just speculating the possibility of it cropping up sometime in the near future because of the Mini Aussies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 My other "Mini Aussie", Lancer, is a product of purely breeding smaller sized standard Aussies together. It's funny, because his parents are both 25~30 lbs, and Lancer is now 15 months old and weighs over 40 lbs, no health problems yet. He was a random breeding between an actively herding farm dog (not just for the sport, but on a farm... wow for me, living in a suburban area) and a pet. He happened upon the standard Aussie size genes still hiding in his parents somewhere, since there was never any papillon/pomeranian/spaniel added to his lines. His temperament, working AND herding drive is incredibly strong and "to standard" (I'm sorry for being very vague here), though his parents were technically attempting being bred toward MAS... so I just call him a standard Aussie now. People get confused when if call him a "Mini Aussie" now. LOL! Then he is just a small Aussie, feel free to just call him an Australian Shepherd haha. There is no variation in size in the breed, two small purebred Aussies who produce other small Aussies are just regular old Aussies Your other sounds like a "mini" in the sense of a MAS - which you already said. Oh and as per AKC, you cannot have a miniaturized version of an existing breed, hence the name change to mini american shepherds. This ^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.